Even more unix holy war. Was "Clinton freezes U.S. assets .."

[jamesd@informix.com (James Donald)]

Perry E. Metzger wrote:
> > > Unix is perfectly easy to use. Its no worse than DOS.
 
"James A. Donald" says:
> > Thanks for the entertainment Perry.

Perry E. Metzger wrote:
> I see that you have no arguments against my statement...

I made no arguments because 

A:  This is not the proper place for such arguments.

B:  The statement is so flagrantly silly that the
proper response is ridicule, not an answer.


Bill O'Hanlon wrote:
> If you're going to be snotty and sarcastic, the least you
> could do is provide a counter-example, to give us something
> to discuss.

[Childish insults, abuse, and flame bait deleted]

Well I did not post examples because other people had been
ridiculing unix for me, (but they were too subtle for you to
understand), and also because this is not the proper place for
such examples.  But since you guys insist:

Long flame on unix follows.  Note that although this flame
has nothing to do with cypherpunks it I am discussing unix,
not the character and mental abilities of the people I am
replying to, unlike the usual posts from Perry and Bill,.

Flame on:


Perry E. Metzger wrote:
> > > Unix is perfectly easy to use. Its no worse than DOS.

Bill O'Hanlon wrote:
> I had agreed with Perry's statement when I saw it.  I've
> taught classes in both DOS and UNIX.  Whenever I've taught
> people who knew next to nothing about computers, I found
> people were able to attain a basic "user" sort of skill
> level in about the same amount of time with about the same
> difficulty when learning either.

Perry's statement and yours is true but irrelevant.

Why is it that for so long people lived with a make
utility that treated tabs differently to blanks.  "Hey! 
My makefile has mysteriously stopped working!"

Why is it that scientists still publish in latex?

Why is it that so many people are STILL using vi in unix:

Because, unless you wish to live in EMACS, it is too hard
to get your local unix deities to set stuff up so that you
never have to see the accursed vi.

If MIS sets up a decent word processor for the secretaries
in UNIX or Windows, then the secretaries can do moron work
just as easily in either system.  In that sense Perry and
Bill are perfectly correct.

But Unix needs that MIS support to set up the decent word
processor and Windows does not.

Why do you think all the scientists are publishing their
stuff in latex?  Do you propose to teach the secretaries
latex?

Any fool can set up a home network using Windows for
Workgroups.

I certainly could not set up a home network using Unix,
and I doubt that you could either.

You probably could do it eventually, but you would spend
weeks futzing with the system, you would visit other unix
gurus and consult with them, carefully study manuals, copy
other peoples configuration files and futz with them, etc.

My kid could probably set up windows for workgroups, share
the disks and the printer etc, in half an hour, even if he
had never seen a PC network before.  (Though I would have
to install the ethernet cards myself.

A few weeks ago MIS replaced everyones Sparc 10s with
Sparcstation 20s.

It was days before we were functioning again, and for a
time I was practically living in my local unix guru's cube.

Unix requires a vast sea of arcane obscure knowledge
to all kinds of trivial and routine things.  Using unix
makes everyone dependent on a bunch of gurus in a way that
does not happen in DOS.  Yes unix can be set up to be
great, but it usually is not, and the reason it is not is
that IT IS USUALLY TOO HARD EVEN FOR GURUS to do it.

(Which is why scientific papers are published using latex.)

And when it is finally set up that way, you can only do
those things that MIS envisaged you to do, cause if you do
what you want to do then the whole damn house of cards
comes tumbling down around your ears.

For example I have Sun's half assed GUI, which has an
almost tolerable editor, similar to Microsofts basic
minimum editor, notepad.  But a weird file system has been
patched on to support source control (Cleartools), and like
everything else in unix it sort of half works with the rest
of the system, so we have to use vi.  Even my unix guru
uses vi.  And why the hell do I need a unix guru in order
to do stuff that dim witted secretaries do easily and
routinely in DOS/Windows?

And try cut and paste anything except text in Sun's so
called GUI.

And try to cut and paste *big* amounts of text.

And try to fiddle with the background screen etc -- yes it
can be done, but it is vastly more difficult and arcane
than under Windows.


Learning this kind of garbage is exactly like learning Vi.

Vi occupies so much brain space that even though I hate and
loath it, I find myself typing vi commands in editors that
I use vastly more than vi.

Exposure to vi has impaired my use of editors I used before
vi, editors that are immeasurably superior.

People who imagine that vi is a decent editor have suffered
brain damage due to exposure to grossly bad tools.  They
perceive it as easy to use because it has damaged them in
the same way as it has damaged me.

And why am I using Vi?  Well, if unix has lots of
wonderful tools available why are lots and lots of people
still using the worlds most hated software?   Because
unless you want to live in EMACS, it is intolerably painful
to escape from the clutches of this thoroughly evil editor.
Sure MIS *could* set it up so no one need be exposed to the
evils of vi.  But they do not. 

Those who imagine that unix is easy to use are suffering
from a similar form of brain damage, similar to that
caused by vi, but a broader and more serious form.

When people talked about teaching secretaries latex, did
not you realize they were having a dig at unix?  If you
did not pick that one up, it shows that unix has already
caused extensive brain damage.  You must stop your unix
habit right now before it is too late.


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