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Re: Hallam-Baker demands more repudiations or he'll write!
On Wed, 25 Sep 1996, jim bell wrote:
> At 11:50 PM 9/24/96 -0400, Brian Davis wrote:
> >...
> >Amen to that. Add that at least one lawyer (and former prosecutor) on
> >the list is confident that successful prosecutions will ensue is AP ever
> >gets off the ground.
>
> I don't doubt that there will be harassment. (you can't deny that charges
> would be brought even if it is tacitly agreed that no crime has been
> committed; "the harassment-value" of such a prosecution would be desired
> even if there is ultimately an acquittal.) AP will resemble, more than
> anything, gambling. While gambling is illegal in some areas, it is quite
> legal in others and there is no reason to believe that locales can't be
> found in which an AP system could operate legally.
By "successful prosecutions" I mean convictions. You can call a cow a
duck, but it's still a cow.
> Make American laws apply everywhere? That'll be hard to justify, unless you
You obviously are unfamiliar with the established concept of
extraterritorial jurisdiction.
> want to unleash a world where an all people can be subject simultaneously to
> the laws of EVERY country, should they choose to enforce them! Would you
> like to be arrested in Red China for something you said years earlier in
> America about their leadership?
>
> And are you ignoring the fact that the intentional isolation of one
^^^^^^^^^^^
Are you ignoring the principle of "willful blindness"?
> participant from the knowledge of the actions and even the identity of the
> others makes opportunities for prosecution on "conspiracy" charges mighty
> slim. And since AP can operate across traditional jurisdictional
I'm curious as to your qualifications to make the "mighty slim" judgment ...
> boundaries, you're going to have to explain how you can prosecute Person A
> in Country B for giving a donation to an organization in Country C, to be
> paid to a person D in country E for correctly predicting the death of person
> F in country G, particularly when none of the identities of these people or
> countries can be easily known given a well-crafted cryptographic and
> message-routing system.
Be glad too. How much can you afford?
>
> Further, as you probably know as well as any, in order (at least,
> supposedly!) to get a conviction you need to prove "mens rea," or "guilty
> mind," and I suggest that none of the more passive participants in the AP
> system have that. (The ones who DON'T pick up a gun, knife, bomb, poison,
> etc.) Sure, they are aware that somewhere, sometime, somebody _may_ commit
> a crime in order to collect a lottery, but they don't know who, what, when,
> where, or how this will occur, if at all. (either before or after the fact!)
> In fact, since it is possible for a target to collect the reward himself
> (to be directed toward his designee, obviously) by committing suicide and
> "predicting" it, it isn't certain to the other participants that there has
> even been any sort of crime committed!
Moo moo.*
> Based on the mens rea requirement, I propose that there is plenty of room
> for most of the participants to reasonably claim that they are guilty of no
> crime. They have carefully shielded themselves and others from any guilty
> knowledge, and presumably they are entitled to protect themselves in this
> way. Morally, you could argue that these people are countenancing something
> nasty, in the same sense that somebody could equally well argue that if you
> buy a cheap shirt in Walmart you're partly responsible for sweatshop labor
> in El Salvador. True, I suppose, but moral guilt does not always translate
> into legal guilt.
>
Moo moo.*
>
> > And yes, I've read Jim Bell's manifesto. The fact
> >that no lawyer has dissected it from a legal standpoint has been used by
> >Mr. Bell as support for the propostion that it is legal.
>
> I suggest that there is a greater likelihood that the "powers that be" will
> just abandon all pretense of legality, and attempt to strike at the
> participants if they can find them without benefit of any sort of trial.
> This is a more plausible conclusion, because it cuts through all of the
> legal difficulties which would hinder prosecution. In effect, a low-level
> undeclared war.
I disagree that that will be the response, but you should be willing to
allow one group of people to fight fire with fire.
EBD
>
> Jim Bell
> [email protected]
>
* Calling a cow a duck doesn't make it one.