Re: Re: DVD legal maneuvers (decss and the lawyers) (fwd)

[Sunder <sunder@sunder.net>]

Jim Choate wrote:
 
>   It's different levels of the same animal.

What animal law?  Laws are laws, but the classes of laws don't necessarily
connect.
 
>   Contract law says what a contract is and who the participants are and what
>   the limits of the contract may be - note it doesn't necessarily detail
>   what is actualy in the contract/license. In a real sense contract law is
>   private law. Copyright law simply says who may define that contract/license
>   for a new work. ]

Yeah, so, again, you tell me when the shrinkwrap license becomes a binding
license when I buy MotherFuckerPro V2.3 but don't install it, and rather just
read the disk with a Hex Editor.  At what point is the shrinkwrap/installer
license binding if I haven't even installed the software???
 
> [ You might see fit to give it to a friend, that would be illegal under the
>   copyright statutes. Strictly speaking your friend must buy his own copy
>   of the software if he wants to use it. You might see fit to put it on two
>   or more machines and use them both at the same time, unfortunately the
>   contract you agreed to at time of purchase prohibits this.

Yes, I specifically pointed this out in my messages.  Quit trying to avoid it. 
Installer/Shrinkwrap licenses don't come into effect by my fair use.  Fair use
includes reviewing the software, quoting from it, etc.  But not copying it, nor
lending it.

I have never stated that fair use was giving away copies of the software.  I
have stated that the copyright on the software and the shrinkwrap/installer
licenses are two separate beasts and that one does not make the other valid. 
Further I stated that I don't have to agree to said license and can legally
still read the CD, even without installing it, and use the software.
 
>   What you see fit to do with it is irrelevant. What matters is what you
>   agreed to do with it when you accepted the terms of the contract (whether
>   is it verbal, written, or simply implied is irrelevant) at time of
>   exchange with the agent of the copyright holder.

Again, at what point is there a contract?  At what point does it become
binding?  Where and WHEN did I ever accept the terms of said contract?  It
wasn't on the outside of the box when I bought it.  I didn't see any notice
stating there's a software license I have to agree to before purchasing it. 
Further, just because some words are printed on the box, that does not
constitute it being a contract I agreed to just because I paid for the box.

Can't answer these can you?
 
>   When you paid the money to take the product from the vendor you agreed
>   implicitly to abide by the contract in the box, the vendor after all is
>   nothing more than an agent for the copyright holder. ]

I did?  When?  This is news to me.  I never even saw ONE bit of software that
has the license on its outside.  When again did I agree to said license once I
purchased it????

> [ Because they haven't found it profitable, pretty obvious answer. As to
>   books, the fact is that strictly speaking whether you can actualy loan
>   it to a 3rd party (other than you and the copyright holder) is at the
>   discretion of the copyright holder, NOT you. You can of course sell your
>   privilige to another 3rd party, contract law provides for the transfer
>   of rights.

That has to do with copyright law.  Again, not the shrinkwrap/installer
license.  Quit dancing around it and admit that they're not binding.
 
>   What you OWN is the paper and the right to read it. The actual text of
>   the media is still owned by the copyright owner. You are in fact doing
>   nothing but borrowing it from them.

I never stated otherwise.  But I will submit that it is my right to do with
that paper what I will provided I do not break the copyright.  I may read it in
any way I chose.
 
>   I've seen many books, I've probably got some in my library, that say
>   explicitly that you can not loan the book. They are usualy cheap
>   paperbacks. Should I stumble across any I'll forward the title and
>   ISBN.

And those are binding how?
 
>   When you buy software, you are NOT buying the software but rather the
>   privilige of using the software. What those priviliges may be is at
>   the discretion of the owner, not the user. And in this case they aren't
>   the same person. ]

Yes, yes, yes, ditto for books, you're buying the paper which has the words you
wish to read, hence the privilege to read those words is at the discretion of
the publisher.  But I can fuck the paper up any which way I want and read it
any which way I want.  I could read it backwards or randomly or upside down, by
blue, green, red, natural or florescent light.  You can't tell me I can't read
it by candle light in a shrinkwrap.  It's my right to do with that piece of
paper as I please, provided I DO NOT COPY IT AND DISTRIBUTE THE COPIES TO
OTHERS.  But usage is dictated BY ME.
 


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