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found the flight-800 missle thing
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 22:51:33 -0800
From: Dan Robbins <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Our old thread on airport security (fwd)
>Return-Path: <[email protected]>
>Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 11:46:10 -0800
>X-Sender: [email protected]
>To: [email protected]
>From: Cas Gadomski <[email protected]>
>Subject: RE: Our old thread on airport security (fwd)
>
>>Return-Path: <[email protected]>
>>From: [email protected]
>>Original-From: [email protected]
>>Original-From: "Schaefer, John" <[email protected]>
>>To: "'Cas Gadomski'" <[email protected]>
>>Subject: RE: Our old thread on airport security (fwd)
>>Date: Fri, 30 Aug 1996 10:32:38 -0400
>>
>>Cas:
>>
>>As far as I know, PETN while often used as a detonator, is also a
>>component of many initiators (a "booster" rather than a detonator--that
>>is the detonator fires the larger booster charge, which fires the main
>>charge) but it is also found as a main charge many weapons.
>>
>>Am not familiar with what we/"they" use as a bursting charge in SAMs but
>>I would expect that they would use something with major blast
>>capabilities like PETN. I've always like Octol for a big blast but
>>there are all kinds of things out there now. As to fragments the
>>message is right on target. One report from the crash sited frag damage
>>of plane parts and some bodies but the subject never appeared in the
>>press again.
>>
>>For air to ground against surface targets or tunnels NOTHING beats a
>>fuel-air bomb. Next best thing to a nuke. (One story out of the Sandbox
>>War relates a couple of British SAS folks observing from a distance a
>>concentration of enemy when the USAF unloaded an FAE bomb on the target.
>> The Brits called their HQ to report that the US had gone nuclear!
>>
>>Am still wondering about the "missile" theory. An errant SM-1 is highly
>>unlikely, and Stingers and Strellas have a very small warhead (2-3
>>pounds) and the plane would have been at the far limit of their range
>>even if fire from directly underneath. We may never know what happened.
>> (One really way-out theory was that it as done in by a major SAM fired
>>from a submarine by China/Iran/Iraq/Martians, etc. (take your pick).
>>Next will be it was shot down by a particle beam weapon fired from a
>>UFO.
>>
>>If I was a terrorist who wanted to do an airliner externally the best
>>way would be to sit in a very small fiberglass boat about a half-mile
>>off shore of JFK very late at night or very early in the morning (to
>>avoid spectators) and get them with a Stinger/Strella on climb out.
>>Toss the launcher overboard and paddle away.
>>
>>As to terrorist bombs in crowded places I still can't believe that some
>>nut hasn't used dynamite and a couple of propane tanks--MAJOR bang
>>there. A standard "home" size tank as used for cooking with a big
>>initiator would probably clear a major mall. Very scary.
>>
>>As of late Sue and I avoid, if at all possible, crowded public places
>>like malls, shopping centers, and theaters. They're disasters waiting
>>to happen.
>>
>>As to sending obnox mail to the "postmaster"--yup, that works.
>>
>>If you want to really worry read Tom Clancy's new book "Executive
>>Decision."
>>
>>Stout heart and good cheer,
>>
>>John
>>
>>
>>
>>>----------
>>>From: Cas Gadomski[SMTP:[email protected]]
>>>Sent: Friday, August 30, 1996 4:52 AM
>>>To: Schaefer, John
>>>Subject: Our old thread on airport security (fwd)
>>>
>>>
>>>John . . .
>>>
>>>What do you think??? I'll forward any clarifications and/or updates
>>>and
>>>confirmations as I get them.
>>>
>>> Cas.
>>>
>>>>Return-Path: <[email protected]>
>>>>Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 18:20:13 -0800
>>>>X-Sender: [email protected]
>>>>To: [email protected]
>>>>From: Dan Robbins <[email protected]>
>>>>Subject: Our old thread on airport security (fwd)
>>>>
>>>>One problem with this. My friend at work who used to be in EOD
>>>>said PETN is found only in detonators and occasionally in boosters, not
>>>>in the explosives themselves. He said he knew of no US weapon or bomb
>>>>that used PETN in the main charge See 6) below. If PETN is
>>>>only in the detonator, then there would not be very much of it in any
>>>>explosion.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Return-Path: <[email protected]>
>>>>>Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 19:41:05 -0400 (EDT)
>>>>>From: Alan Horowitz <[email protected]>
>>>>>X-Sender: alanh@wilma
>>>>>To: [email protected], [email protected]
>>>>>Subject: Our old thread on airport security (fwd)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>Date: Thu, 29 Aug 1996 14:51:54 +1300
>>>>>From: Joop Teernstra <[email protected]>
>>>>>Reply-To: Cebu Discussion List <[email protected]>
>>>>>To: Multiple recipients of list CEBU-L <[email protected]>
>>>>>Subject: Our old thread on airport security
>>>>>
>>>>>Dear fellow airtravellers,
>>>>>
>>>>>I think the following is relevant to a point I made at that last
>>>>>discussion,
>>>>>and I like to share it with you, even if some of you may have seen it
>>>>>already:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Newsgroups: alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater,alt.conspiracy
>>>>>>Subject: Re: POSSIBILITY OF AN RBS 70 SAM ON TWA 800
>>>>>>Date: Mon, 26 Aug 1996 09:48:51 GMT
>>>>>>Organization: The Scannerist
>>>>>>Lines: 144
>>>>>>Message-ID: <[email protected]>
>>>>>>References: <[email protected]>
>>>>>>Reply-To: [email protected]
>>>>>>NNTP-Posting-Host: annex033.ridgecrest.ca.us
>>>>>>X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82
>>>>>>Xref: news.express.co.nz alt.current-events.clinton.whitewater:60503
>>>>>alt.conspiracy:198774
>>>>>>
>>>>>>[email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Very concise report. It is also interesting to note that you mention,
>>>>>>"Tungsten, perhaps? " Tungsten pellets are not the only thing used by
>>>>>>ground to air weapons. Sidewinder [Chaparral] is known to use an
>>>>>>"expandable rod" war head. Also, a casing of FRANGABLE tungsten is
>>>>>>being used in some weapons. This means that the case itself explodes
>>>>>>into thousands of razor sharp pieces. So sharp that you could shave
>>>>>>wih them. Bad news for anyone or anything within reach. :-{
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>From: RONALD LEWIS <[email protected]>
>>>>>>>Subject: POSSIBILITY OF AN RBS 70 SAM ON TWA 800
>>>>>>>To: Multiple recipients of list FLIGHT-800
>>>>>>> <[email protected]>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>According to the 8-23-96 edition of the New York Times, residue of PETN
>>>>>>>explosive has been confirmed on wreckage of TWA Flight 800. We now have
>>>>>>>either a bomb or a missile as the cause.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>PETN is said to be a component of missile warheads as well.
>>>>>>>Interesting how
>>>>>>>that was mentioned in all of the news reports tonight on various networks
>>>>>>>and even local TV. Now that the investigators have concluded that it
>>>>>>>definitely was a bomb or a missile, they are supposedly going through and
>>>>>>>trying to collect evidence to indicate which it was.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Two things highly significant: 1) Weeks ago, a reliable source
>>>>>>>advised me
>>>>>>>that the investigators were not worried about explosive residue fading in
>>>>>>>salt water because they had other evidence. Components of a missile,
>>>>>>>perhaps? Couldn't say.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>2) Same source told me the other day that the investigators were now
>>>>>>>conducting "metalurgical studies", i.e., they were looking for and
>>>>>>>analzying certain types of metal. Tungsten, perhaps? Bombs don't
>>>>>>>contain
>>>>>>>tungsten but SAM warheads are often surrounded by tungsten balls or
>>>>>>>pellets.
>>>>>>>They help cut the metal skin of their target aircraft.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>OTHER NOTES:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>1) Rocket motor of a missile would be capable of touching off a fire in
>>>>>>>nearby fuel tanks. An Exocet missile sank the destroyer SHEFFIELD
>>>>>>>in the
>>>>>>>Falklands War without the warhead even detonating. The missile cut
>>>>>>>through
>>>>>>>the hull, severed fuel lines and the rocket motor touched off the spilled
>>>>>>>fuel, causing a fatal fire.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>2) Something ejected the air conditiioning plant in the first
>>>>>>>debris field.
>>>>>>>What would blow out the missing bottom of the aircraft center without
>>>>>>>collapsing the internal structures, then manage to blow the forward
>>>>>>>fuselage
>>>>>>>off, rip away the right side of the fuselage and cause burn marks
>>>>>>>there and
>>>>>>>in the adjacent wing? A titanic explosion which quickly ripped the
>>>>>>>fuselage
>>>>>>>apart faster than Pan Am 103 went.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>3) The sound on the cockpit voice recorder is different from any
>>>>>>>other they
>>>>>>>have heard before on two other 747s downed by bombs (Pan Am and Air
>>>>>>>India).
>>>>>>>Perhaps the sound was not caused by a bomb? It seems we have only a
>>>>>>>bomb or
>>>>>>>a missile left at this point. If it's not a bomb, then....?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>4) Nose gear damaged in its hold. Nose gear door gone. Right side
>>>>>>>forward
>>>>>>>cargo hatch blown off in first field. The doors and AC unit located
>>>>>>>together. How does a bomb inside the center fuselage do such damage
>>>>>>>to the
>>>>>>>nose gear area? It doesn't seem possible. However, an external
>>>>>>>blast and
>>>>>>>shock wave would be consistent with this, especially if it initiated
>>>>>>>at the
>>>>>>>left rear and traveled forward, rippling along the bottom of the
>>>>>>>aircraft.
>>>>>>>It would be very interesting to note if the nose gear door found in
>>>>>>>Area #3
>>>>>>>(the "first" debris field, that closest to JFK) happens to have been from
>>>>>>>the right side.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>5) Latest pieces of wreckage with fuselage stringers and stiffeners
>>>>>>>AGAIN
>>>>>>>show at least subtle evidence of an external explosion rippling the outer
>>>>>>>fuselage inward. Look at the video of all outer hull sections recovered.
>>>>>>>The outer skin is pushed inward around the stringers. If it had been an
>>>>>>>internal bomb, the metal would be almost universally bowed OUTWARD
>>>>>>>away from
>>>>>>>the stringers and ribs. But they aren't. In virually every case I have
>>>>>>>seen so far, the sheet metal is not pulled AWAY from the stringers. They
>>>>>>>may be popped loose but even in those rare cases, the indentations on the
>>>>>>>outer skin make it appear as though the stringers have been pushed inward
>>>>>>>away from the outer sheet metal, not as though the steet metal had been
>>>>>>>pused outward away from the stringers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>6) If a bomb, why so little PETN? Why isn't it virtually
>>>>>>>everywhere? Pan
>>>>>>>AM 103 HAD lots of it even though the bomb went off contained in a cargo
>>>>>>>bin. What would account for so little PETN in this case?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>A proximity fuze detonation of a missile would touch off the blast
>>>>>>>outside
>>>>>>>the aircraft. Kinetic energy would still send a large portion of it into
>>>>>>>the aircraft, penetrating it and passing through, but most of the
>>>>>>>explosive
>>>>>>>residue would burn away or dissipate outside of the aircraft. If
>>>>>>>they can
>>>>>>>find fragments of the 747 underbelly and subject them to tests, I
>>>>>>>strongly
>>>>>>>believe they will find higher concentrations of both PETN residue and
>>>>>>>tungsten fragments embedded in the metal.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If this was a bomb, it had to be enormously powerful, skillfully
>>>>>>>planted or
>>>>>>>just unfortunately "lucky." The entire bottom of the plane around the
>>>>>>>center wing box is said to be missing but, bewteen the passenger
>>>>>>>cabin and
>>>>>>>the outer surface of the bottom of the plane is some of the most robust
>>>>>>>construction known to exist on the 747. How is it, then, that that the
>>>>>>>"device" was able to blow off the front of the fuselage, blow away
>>>>>>>at least
>>>>>>>the right side of the fuselage, then make it past the heavy-duty
>>>>>>>wings and
>>>>>>>AC unit to shread the bottom of the plane into fragments so small
>>>>>>>they may
>>>>>>>have to dredge to recover them?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It seems that only a missile could rip away the bottom exterior upon
>>>>>>>contact
>>>>>>>to blast away the AC unit lying right above that area. As the hot
>>>>>>>remains
>>>>>>>of the missile body continue into the aircraft, they could tear open the
>>>>>>>center fuel tanks and, with the compression of air and kinetic
>>>>>>>energy, blow
>>>>>>>out the right side and cause separation of the forward fuselage. The
>>>>>>>thousands of tungsten fragments and the armor-piercing capability of
>>>>>>>the RBS
>>>>>>>70 would surely be capable of such incredible damage. It has destroyed
>>>>>>>light armored vehicles when fired in the air-to-ground mode, so it
>>>>>>>shouldn't
>>>>>>>be hard to imagine it doing severe damage to the thin skin of a
>>>>>>>pressurized
>>>>>>>airliner hull at 13000+ feet.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>And there are precedents for using SAMs against airliners and civilian
>>>>planes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In the former Soviet Republic of Georgia, airliners were being used
>>>>>>>to ferry
>>>>>>>out refugees and to bring in weapons and supplies during the civil
>>>>>>>war with
>>>>>>>Abkhazian separatists. SAM gunners, in boats out on the Black Sea, are
>>>>>>>known to have shot down at LEAST two airliners as they approached
>>>>>>>and took
>>>>>>>off from Sukhumi, Georgia.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>In April, 1995, a Falcon executive jet carrying the president of
>>>>>>>Rwanda was
>>>>>>>on final approach to Kigali airfield in the capital city of Rwanda
>>>>>>>when it
>>>>>>>was shot down by a shoulder-fired SAM (RBS 70 is NOT shoulder-fired
>>>>>>>but is a
>>>>>>>MANPAD, or man-portable system mounted on a pedestal mount).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It has happened before, it may have happened with TWA 800. Now, what
>>>>>>>measures do we take to make sure it doesn't happen again?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Ron Lewis
>>>>>>>CHIEF MILITARY & AVIATION ANALYST
>>>>>>>THE INTELLIGYST GROUP
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--****ATTENTION****--***ATTENT
>>>>>>>ON***
>>>>>>>Your e-mail reply to this message WILL be *automatically* ANONYMIZED.
>>>>>>>Please, report inappropriate use to [email protected]
>>>>>>>For information (incl. non-anon reply) write to [email protected]
>>>>>>>If you have any problems, address them to [email protected]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Dr Pepper
>>>>>>10 - 2 - 4
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Uh, oh!
>>>>>Joop Teernstra
>>>>>http://serve.com/terastra
>>>>>If you want to make up your mind about an argument, see who attacks the
>>>>>person, rather than the matter at hand.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>* CEBU-L DISCUSSION LIST * Comments/Complaints, write:
>>>>>[email protected]
>>>>>To unsubscribe, write: [email protected] w/ body text: SIGNOFF
>>>>>CEBU-L
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
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