No Subject

[nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)]

On Wed, 28 May 1997, Tim May wrote:

> At 5:02 PM -0400 5/27/97, Mark M. wrote:
> 
> >I don't know the reason, but the IRS tax code requires that all passport
> >applicants supply their SSNs to the IRS.  The penalty for failing to
> >notify is $500.  I recently encountered this situation and just left
> 
> Good for you, seriously, but you may not yet have heard the last of this.
> As with "frivolous returns" (such as writing comments on the tax forms

They can always harrass.  Supposedly the State Department reports to the
IRS anyone who does not give this info, but the IRS seems not to follow
up, an the only thing they could do under the law is impose the $500
penalty which would probably not survive a court challenge (I forget the
particular reasoning, but if they challenged and lost, no one would have
any fear not giving their SSNs out, similarly to why they don't charge
every cypherpunk under export laws - fear of grey is more useful than a
clear line that will be more liberal than they want).  When I applied for
a passport (specifically because it is a government recognized ID that
need not contain your social security number), I didn't write the IRS at
all (you have no duty to notify them), and IF contacted, I would simply
say "Who do I make the $500 check out to, and where do I send it, and who
should my lawyer contact to challenge it".  I have never been contacted. 

> The woman behind the desk didn't seem interested in my point and just said
> that without a valid SS number, no registration tags would be issued. It
> was then my choice to drive without tags (and get a ticket anytime a cop
> noticed this and decided to act on it) or seek some kind of legal
> restraining order (???, but probably $$$).

IANAL, but: There is another statute which says that any time a government
agency (it does not apply to corporations) asks for your SS# they have to
state the reason and authority they have to ask for it (something like a
state statute or order - I will look up the info and post here when I have
time).  Usually the behind-the-counter culture doesn't know about this. 
You can also give a religous objection. You can ask for the name of the
person and their exact title then ask nicely to speak with a manager
familar with the law or procedure, and that it might be illegal to ask for
that information without citing the authority (with the above law in
hand), etc.  Since they have to have alternate ID numbers unless they only
give licenses out to US citizens and not the Amish or others who have
religous objections - you can ask for one of these alternate numbers. You
can also be agreeable and say, OK, if you want to see my SSN so that you
can confirm that I am me, I will show it to you, but I don't want that
specific number on my license, and you can pick any number that is
convienient to you, or I can supply my standard "alternate-ID" number.

My state uses a number that is a wierd checksum of my name and birthdate
and who knows what, so it doesn't apply to my drivers license.

I had my SSN used (they didn't tell me that is what it was for, and this
was before I was as aware of the privacy matters) on a professional
license, and they did things like disclose it to people who bought their
mailing list and it appeared in some mailings.  I only had to call the
state office, explain about the problems of identity fraud, and had a new
license with a new number (which I use as my alt-id number)  within a week
(and they said they would not include SSNs with their mailing list).  Some
people are reasonable.

Generally they try to find the easiest path.  When it is clear that you
won't go away quietly, and that you are going to be more hassle than it is
worth (and that you aren't trying to evade any requirement, e.g. "You
agree that I have proper ID, and qualify in every other way, and the only
reason you won't is because I won't tell you my SSN even though you can't
cite the authority you have ...") you can usually get them to either
relent or say something slanderous in public.  A silly but necessary game.

Now if I can mail in a form, I usually use the alt-id number and write it
in place of the SSN with a note right next to it saying it is not my SSN
and that if you really want it you have to write me back and explain why
they want it.  (If they do, I send them a NDA with something to the effect
that if I find it has leaked anywhere they have to cover all costs
associated with correcting any record, etc.).  Given that they are usually
desparate to sign me up for whatever it is, and the mail is a hassle for
them, they just enter the alt-id number.  I keep a copy of the original
form with the Not-my-SSN statement in case someone wants to accuse me of
any kind of fraud.