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Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #13 (fwd)

Here is a forward of the CFD where PGP was mentionned.  I posted several 
off-topic messages to the CFD, to introduce theses peoples to encryption, 
digital signatures, e$, etc.  For thoses who are curious about firearms 
related politics in Kanada, this it *the* forum for it.  Take note that 
the Allan Rock discussed in the various posts is the former Canada Justice 
Minister, now Canada Health Minister, who fanatically drafted and 
frantically pushed bill C-68, the gun registration bill.  Just so you 
know, now, in Kanada, simple possession of *any* firearms or some other 
weapons *is* a crime passible of 14 year of imprisonement, *unless* you get 
a permit that, in effect, waive that crime.  Of course, 
they say that they make it 
simple and reasonable to get it, but what the authorities want is to 
disamr the population.  Recently, they did not even shy out at saying it 
explicitely.  Among their plans, the outright confiscation without 
compensation of a great number of now Verboten types of firearms.

And you thought that the Kool Komrades were very far from you...

PGP key at w3.citenet.net/users/jf_avon or at the MIT key server.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:03:08 -0600
From: Cdn-Firearms Digest <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #13

Cdn-Firearms Digest    Thursday, September 25 1997    Volume 02 : Number 013

In this issue:
	re: mor(e )on Bill C-68
	Unique registration
	Re: Claire Hoy on "Free Speech" -- The Hill Times
	Re: Carry Permits
	Police Function in Canada (mtoma)
	Pretty Good Privacy (PGP) www.pgp.com
	Foundations of Canadian Life
	re: The Police Function in Canada
	antique guns
	With friends like these ...
	Re: More Moronic Ramblings
	research links
	Re: Bill C-68 is not yet in force...
	Home-invasion victim winds up facing gun-storage charges


Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:12:39 -0600 (CST)
From: "Skeeter Abell-Smith" <[email protected]>
Subject: re: mor(e )on Bill C-68

>then what the government should do is to totally outlaw the private
>ownership of all handguns, semi-automatic, and automatic weapons. Such
>weapons should be reserved for the police and military alone.  Someone
>once said that rifles were designed for hunting and, thereby, putting
>food on the table, but handguns were designed for one purpose and one
>purpose only: to kill people. The same goes for automatic weapons and
>assault rifles. So get rid of them altogether (and to hell with the
>target shooters - let them use air pistols!).

"Automatic weapons" are machine guns, i.e. they are "fully automatic"
(can fire many rounds with one trigger squeeze).  "Assault rifles" are
machine guns (of a specific type).

There are 4500 Canadians who may own registered machine guns, and do.
There has never been a registered machine gun used in a crime or
suicide by its owner.  I've never found an incident of one being stolen
and used.

So why ban them?

There are one million registered pistols, used safely every year.  Less
than five are involved in a homicide each year, including justifiable
homicides.  More than 80% of the 600 annual homicides do not involve a
pistol, let alone a registered pistol.

So why ban them?

If I can be trained and trusted to own use a car/chainsaw/airplane/
whatever safely, I should be able to be trained and trusted to own and
use _any_ kind of firearm safely.  Period.

What's more dangerous:  Using a gun at a range or flying an aircraft 
over a city?


Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:16:32 -0600 (CST)
From: SBKracer <[email protected]>
Subject: Unique registration

I own a Remington, WWII era, 1911A1 with a new serial number stamped
over the spot where the original would have been.  In fact some of the
original number can still be seen.  What are the chances this handgun
is uniquely registered?  The new serial number is a 5 digit number but
I have NO IDEA where the number came from, who supplied it or who
stamped it on.  I am at least the third owner (that I know of) of this
particular pistol since it entered Canada.

I also own an Allan rock special which with the slide removed has NO
markings at all save for a four digit number stamped on the backstrap.
Could this number possibly be a patent number?  I don't know how many
digits typically make up a patent number.  The pistol is an Arizzabalaga
Terrible (at least that is what it says on the registration certificate)
made circa 1920.  

Nice name for a gun huh?  The "Terrible!"  Specially considering it is
chambered for that manstopping 6.35 (.25ACP) cartridge.  

Peter Cronhelm		ZX-7 		Carbon Fibre Racing Machine
SBKracer		YSR/YZ80 	The Little Beast

"I'm not the man you say I am, not radical nor mentally deranged."
- -Sons of Freedom-

"Without the threat of death, what's the point in living at all!"
- -Marilyn Manson-


Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:17:29 -0600 (CST)
From: "John E. Stevens" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Claire Hoy on "Free Speech" -- The Hill Times

skeeter wrote:
>Claire Hoy has a good column on "Free Speech" in this week's The Hill

AND while you're there, take time to read:

	Plan to introduce bills in Senate sparks fury 
	in government and opposition benches.

It's sometimes kind of scarry how our democratic government subtly
attempts to circumvent democracy.

[sometimes?...  -- Skeeter]


Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:47:21 -0600 (CST)
From: Juha Askola <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Carry Permits

Yes, you can take your friends handgun provided you are in possession
of a valid carry permit and green slip belonging to the gun you're

I don't know the law on this one but I would play it safe.  When I
purchased my .45, I just took the receiver part to the police but still
with a trigger lock.

Took a little arguing to make them understand that they don't need or
require slide or barrel to register a gun, it was fun.

    Chao,  Juha


Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:48:44 -0600 (CST)
From: [email protected]
Subject: Police Function in Canada (mtoma)

>[Moderator:  This may or may not be "official policy."  Without knowing the
>context or the original author it is difficult to evaluate.  HTB]


>This particular document is by far the scariest federal gun control
>document I have ever seen.  In short it outlines stategies for gun
>confiscation and prohibition orders for gun owning citizens and the
>general disarmament of the populace.


Even if this document is a complete fake, which we have no way of
finding out, it is very possible something similar is in the works.
Just look at UK and Australia!


Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:49:33 -0600 (CST)
From: [email protected]
Subject: Pretty Good Privacy (PGP) www.pgp.com

In previous issues of the CFD, the issues of using and the governments'
attempts to restrict the use of Pretty Good Privacy encryption software
(www.pgp.com) was discussed and compared to restricting the use of

I noticed a lot of users of this list have their PGP fingerprint
attached to their message, which is great.  However, a lot of people
are reluctant to use PGP because it was difficult to use and install.
For those using Eudora (16-bit or 32-bit), PGP Inc. has a special offer
to have a full version of PGP 5.0 for Eudora plug-in, which supports
both RSA and DSS/DH algorithm, for US$5 (five dollars).  Personally, I
think it is money well spent, with governments creeping up on us, you
never know when you HAVE TO encrypt all your email.

Go to www.pgp.com for more details.

I'm in no way shape or form related to PGP Inc, Qualcomm, or anyone who
might benefit from the sale of PGP or Eudora.  I'm just an immigrant to
this great country and would love to preserve the freedom we enjoy.

[Also visit the PGP resources listed under "Freedom sites" at the
cdn-firearms home page.  http://cdn-firearms.ml.org/  -- Skeeter]


Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 14:51:02 -0600 (CST)
From: "Geoff Stokes" <[email protected]>
Subject: Foundations of Canadian Life

Recently, a local reporter found himself in a precarious position.
He's been reporting on a ticket fixing case and he has a good source
close to the investigation.  My point is that his article seems to echo
the fears some members of the RFC have with regard to the latest gun
control scheme:

>From the article entitled:  Call Threatens Foundation of Canadian

"Two weeks ago I received a thinly veiled threat from someone who is
either a policeman or somehow connected with the police...Then it
became clear that it was the very idea that a pion like me would dare
meddle with the RCMP...Finally, he said, If you start messing around
with the big boys, you're going to get an education in life...the fact
that most people believe that the police, the ones who are supposed to
protect us, are capable of the kind of harassment and intimidation that
my anonymous caller alluded to...To date, I'm happy to report that
there have been no unexplained searches of my vehicle, no funny clicks
on my phone and nothing to suggest that I am anyone's particular
target...But I don't even like thinking that those things are a
possibility, not in this country."

hmmmm..., sounds an awful lot like what it may be like under Bill C-68
concerning increased police discretion; or how an uncooperative,
non-complier may be treated in future..., or am I really going


Date: Wed, 24 Sep 1997 15:21:37 -0600 (CST)
From: "Skeeter Abell-Smith" <[email protected]>
Subject: re: The Police Function in Canada

>From: SBKracer <[email protected]>
>[The moderator wrote: This may or may not be "official policy."
>Without knowing the context or the original author it is difficult to
>evaluate.  HTB]
>Sunday at a gunshow in Cow Town I got a copy of a news letter containing a
>Federal document on gun control dated 1977.  This document had been
>e-mailed by <[email protected]>.

The excerpt printed in digest number 10 (volume 2) was scary, but I think
the one below is worse.  

	As regards the Police Function in Canada, prior to passage of
	the foregoing it was the opinion of the administrations:

	1. That in face of mass civil disobedience the use of Force had
	limited capabilities....

	2. That in face of mass civil disobedience any display of
	available Force would not have credibility....

	....as far as an armed and organized Public was concerned and
	it was felt in the interests of the Function that it was
	desirous to ensure the Public be discretely but effectively
	disarmed over a period of the forthcoming 5 years.

	The foregoing is not entirely the opinion of the
	administrations of the Function, but is one which has been
	voiced generally even at the rank and file level...that being
	that the absence of firearms in the hands of the Public in
	general would increase the safety of a Patrolmans work.

	With the passage of the Firearms Section of the Criminal Code
	of Canada Amendments, having been predetermined that in regards
	to the Functions ability as a Control and Enforcement Agency
	there was:

	1. A lack of personnel suitably indoctrinated at specific
	assignment levels and sectors within the proposed Control

	2. A requirement for the adequate indoctrination and training

	3. A requirement for time to phase in the various levels and
	sectors of the proposed Control Structure independently of one
	and another in a manner which would not create alarm, nor allow
	premature rapport.

	4. A requirement for time to nullify the credibility of
	alarmists and dissenters.

This document was obtained from MP Peter Elzinga.  I had been faxed a copy
back in 1994, but the source was "unknown".  We may never know if
it was/is for real...

read it all in Cdn-Firearms Digest V1 #860



Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:15:14 -0600 (CST)
From: [email protected] (douglas c miller)
Subject: antique guns

I think the Dave's answer in regard to the antique guns in digest V2
#12 was a little weak.  My first objection is that an 1864 Enfield
MkII* is probably a Snider Enfield and as such would be .58 caliber and
I very much doubt that it would be found in .303.  I think that Dave is
mistaking it for a Martini Enfield. His second comment re Winchesters
would have been far more accurate if he had stated Winchester
repeaters/carbines came in the following models.  The model 1885 is a
single shot in high wall and low wall models and I don't believe would
ever have been referred to as a saddle ring carbine.

What is perhaps more instructive of the questions posed is the error or
risk of registering one's own guns as illustrated by  the owner who
works in or in conjunction with a museum appears to have made at least
one descriptive mistake.

Just my $.02 worth

D.C. Miller


Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:54:14 -0600 (CST)
From: jean hogue <[email protected]>
Subject: With friends like these ...

>>I am an archaeologist by
>>profession and work for the **************** government.
>> ...
>>On the other hand, if there is really that
>>great a concern over public safety (as opposed to the amount of revenue
>>that can be generated by this punitive registration/licensing system),
>>then what the government should do is to totally outlaw the private
>>ownership of all handguns, semi-automatic, and automatic weapons. Such
>>weapons should be reserved for the police and military alone. 

I think Dave's reply to this was far too polite.

Yet another case where this quote by Pastor Martin Niemoller is so

	"In Germany they first came for the communists and I didn't
	speak up because I wasn't a communist. They came for the Jews
	and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew. Then they came
	for the trade Unionists and I didn't speak up because I wasn't
	a trade Unionist. Then they came for the Catholics and I didn't
	speak up because I was a Protestant.  Then they came for me and
	by that time no one was left to speak up."

Just under what logic does this government archaeologist justify
banning the best-behaved guns in the country ? Several thousands (I
believe 5,000) automatic weapons were lawfully registered before 1979
by non-military, non-police law-abiding citizens. Not a single one has
ever been involved in a crime of violence.

As for automatic weapons being reserved strictly to the police and
military, two things:

        1- the only two cases of homicides committed with automatic
           weapons legally registered were:

                a) military: Corporal Lortie killed three in the
                             Quebec National Assembly (provincial
                             govm't) -- 1985 or 1986;

                b) police:   in Rock Forest, police fired a burst
                             from an Uzi, through the motel room door,
                             killing a labourer  police mistakenly
                             assumed to be the hold-up suspect they were
                             looking for -- early 1980's.

        2- the government archaeologist sounds just like Allan "Alibi Al"

		"I came to Ottawa with the firm belief that the only
		people in this country who should have guns are police
		officers and soldiers."

			Allan Rock, Canada's previous Minister of Justice
			Maclean's "Taking Aim on Guns", April 25, 1994, p 12

Pay attention to the man behind the curtain. A recent "study" by police
of guns recovered at crime scenes "concluded" that "legal" guns (they
meant unrestricted) were used in crime far more often than handguns and
evil semi-automatic "assault" rifles. The government archaeologist's
toys are deemed by police to be even more dangerous than the toys being
condemned by the archaeologist.

I have really lost patience for this mentality of throwing off "wolf
meat" from the dogsleigh to escape the wolves. The archaeologist is
simply advocating that the gun owner community sell off owners of
handguns and semi-automatics so that people like the archaeologist can
be left alone with their more politically-correct toys. All this based
on nothing more than an _iffy_ "concern".

Thanks for the back-stabbing and dream on!  As Max Headroom said: with
friends like these, who needs an oenema?


Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 09:55:47 -0600 (CST)
From: [email protected] (Don Shesnicky)
Subject: Re: More Moronic Ramblings

Here's an interesting story along this theme...

I caught this one on CBC radio two days ago while driving into work. It
was an excerpt from something that, I believe it was Martin Bell from
the BBC, said during a book presentation in Ottawa. He stated something
to the effect that the media could never be detached from the stories
they covered. As an example he put forth this story, which was said to
be true and which I will put into my own words:

  It seems that a reporter visiting Bosnia wanted to do a story
  on snipers. A Bosnian commander told him to go with one of his
  snipers. They crawled into place and after the sniper took a 
  look out onto a street told the reporter to take a peek and tell
  him what he saw. After looking the reporter said he could see two
  civilians standing in the street. The sniper asked him which one 
  should die. The reporter realizing that he suddenly didn't want
  to be there explained at length to the sniper that he didn't
  want either of them to die. As he turned to go he heard two shots. 
  He turned back to the sniper who said "Too bad, you could have 
  saved one of them".

Powerful story.



Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:20:05 -0600 (CST)
From: "Skeeter Abell-Smith" <[email protected]>
Subject: research links

A couple of good links from the Cdn-Firearms Home Page (under



Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:01:28 -0600 (CST)
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Bill C-68 is not yet in force...

>> and an 1885
>>Winchester saddle-ring carbine w/octagonal barrel in very fine

>Winchesters went through Models 1873, to 1876, to 1886, to 1892, to
>1894.  Which do you have, and in what calibre?  There is no Model

I got stuck with one of them fake model 1885 too.  I guess I should of
been more suspicious when the guy who sold it to me kept referring to
it as a "High Wall".  Sure is pretty. but i ain't worked out yet how do
I load the magazine.

 Gerald Griffith

" The easiest thing in the world to
achieve is the effective disapproval of
any sort of uncritically vested authority. "
      < Alexander King >


Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 14:05:49 -0600 (CST)
From: "David A. Tomlinson" <[email protected]>
Subject: Home-invasion victim winds up facing gun-storage charges

   Thursday, September 25, 1997
   Home-invasion victim winds up facing gun-storage charges
   By SKANA GEE -- The Daily News
   The victim of a home invasion in Middle Sackville last month now has
   his own date with a judge.
   Clarence Joseph Arsenault, 60, was charged yesterday with illegal
   storage of firearms, stemming from an investigation into the robbery
   at his house Aug. 27.
   "They were kept in a room that wasn't secured very well and they were
   not secured very well," said Lower Sackville RCMP Const. Lynn Tardif.
   "They were kind of just in disarray."
   She said Mounties seized about 60 handguns, rifles and shotguns,
   including those that were stolen during the home invasion, during
   which Arsenault's elderly mother and seven-year-old grandson were tied
   up with rope and duct tape.
   Return Oct. 1
   The two men charged in that incident return to Bedford provincial
   court Oct. 1 to make their election.
   The charge against Arsenault alleges he stored restricted firearms
   without failing to render them inoperable by a secure locking device
   and storing them in a locked container or room "that is constructed so
   that it cannot readily be broken open."
   "It's one charge dealing with all the different firearms," said
   Tardif. She said many people in the community knew the Lakeview Avenue
   man was a gun collector, a situation aggravated by the fact his
   weapons were "easy to get at."
   Just after the home invasion, Arsenault told The Daily News he had
   begun to clean the guns "for the next gun show." He also said he
   expected to be charged.
   Tardif said police sympathize with Arsenault's family for the ordeal
   they experienced, but they maintain the charge is warranted.
   "It put everybody in a bad situation as far as I'm concerned," she
   said. "We have a job to do. We have no choice, but we also want to
   raise awareness about this kind of thing."
   Tardif said she could only speculate on what might have occurred if
   the weapons had been stored differently. "I don't know if you can
   necessarily prevent the robbery, but it would have made it a lot
   harder for them," she said.
   Arsenault will be arraigned Nov. 19.
   Joshua Alexander Pelley, 23, and Kenneth Wayne Beazley, 20, are
   charged with committing robbery by stealing guns while using threats
   of violence; break, enter and theft; and wearing a mask while
   committing an indictable offence in connection with the home invasion.

The NFA has supplied Mr. Arsenault with transcripts of  court decisions
that indicate the charge against him [CC s. 86(3), storage "in
violation of a regulation"] cannot be used because it is a violation of
the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.



CC s. 86(3) imposes a sentence of up to two years imprisonment.

The charge leaves no room for a defence of "due diligence" (I didn't do
it the way the regulations said to, but I did do it in a way that had
the same or a better effect).  That being so, storage in the
alternative way leaves one guilty of the offence, and that is a
violation of the Charter right to liberty.  The accused can be sent to
prison for up to two years -- when the accused has done nothing wrong.
That is a violation of the Charter right to "fundamental justice."

The R. vs. Smillie case (BC Supreme Court) ruled that CC s.86(3)
violates the Charter as indicated above, and therefore cannot be used.

R. vs. Finlay (Supreme Court of Canada) ruled that CC s. 86(2) and (3)
are regulatory law rather than proper criminal law, and that therefore
a proper defence of "due diligence" shall succeed.

Dave Tomlinson, NFA

FOCUS:  In trouble?  Know someone who is in trouble?  Learn of someone
who is in trouble?  Get in touch with the person in trouble, tell him
or her to get help from the NFA.  Call (403) 439-1394.


End of Cdn-Firearms Digest V2 #13

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