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so, what did Toto *do*, exactly to get locked up? (Re: rules of engagement
> Adam Back wrote:
> > Re. the discussion of things like "first they came for Jim Bell, but I
> > didn't speak up because I wasn't a tax protester, and then they came
> > for Toto but I didn't speak up because I'm not crazy", etc.
> > The rules of the game from what I can see is that if one is outspoken,
> > one either needs to be squeaky clean, or have enough funds to hire
> > good lawyers, or to be anonymous.
> [Notwithstanding my preference for the latter]...
> Is it the cypherpunk response to back off with our tail between our legs?
> I hope not.
Fuck no. Just fight smart. Don't do dumb things which make you a
target for other than things you are immediately interested in
> I smiled when I read about Toto's plans to appear in court in a perl-RSA
> T-shirt. Toto has balls so big he needs a wheel barrow to get around.
Toto is on occasion an inspiration. I like Toto's attitude, it rocks,
his "FuckYouNess" or whatever he would call it is awesome. As long as
all he is doing is tapping away behind a keyboard, the coherent
version of Toto rules at caustic rants.
> > That is to say, I suspect that Jim would not have been locked up if he
> > had not a) used false social security numbers, b) not been involved
> > with fake courts, c) not collected IRS employees home addresses, and
> > d) not planted the stink bomb.
> And, more importantly, if crypto-anachy and removal of governments
> weren't on the cypherpunk agenda.
I was just saying that it is smarter to fight one fight at a time.
Crypto-anarchy provides a generic solution to problems of increasingly
facist governments. Getting yourself locked up for uninteresting
things does not further your interests.
> Lets not pretend that Jim and Toto (and to a lesser degree the
> scrutinee J Choate) are not scapegoats for all of our opinions.
It is difficult to tell exactly why Jim was incarcerated because the
IRS people may have alternate motives. However, I suspect Jim Bell's
woes are more to do with involvement with the fake courts, and the use
of real IRS employees names and addresses, which was then taken to be
an immediate threat, taken with the AP rant printout they found in his
car. I presume in reality he just collected the addresses to have the
fake court serve them with some legal documents. I also presume the
reason the IRS first got interested in Jim was due to tax evasion,
and/or fake court documents addressed to IRS agents.
Toto is more interesting. He seems to have been incarcerated because
he tried to stick up for Jim Bell. What did he do? Set up an AP bot
mockup, put the same IRS employees names, and a judge (I presume the
judge that handled Jim's case) on the page with $ amounts beside them.
The IRS became aware of Toto because they came across him via
investigation of Jim Bell. (more on Toto below).
> > The AP rants are perfectly defensible free speech and free-wheeling
> > political discussion.
> Yes. "defensible", but they weren't defended. Jim pleaded. As would anyone
> in the face of sufficient pressure.
Also what I am saying is that it makes it hard to defend people if
they have done any number of dumb things which are the ostensible
reason they are locked up. To defend Jim, you would have to defend
fake courts, fake social security numbers to avoid taxation, stink
bombs, and convince them that the collection of IRS employee names and
addresses had nothing to do with the AP rant. If he had just been
ranting about AP, they never would have even bothered him, or if they
had, I think he would have had much more support. Perhaps even the
EFF could have been interested.
> > Similarly with Toto, the rants would have been ok, without a) the
> > mockup non-functional "bomb" symbolically planted in the court house
> > basement or where-ever it was, b) using real IRS employees, and judges
> > names in his rant (apparently in support of Jim Bell), c) having
> > tourettes syndrome.
> The rants are ok anyway. They are clearly metaphors. But the
> prosecutors aren't playing fair. The man is "dangerous". And not
> because he wrote "bomb" in crayon on a cardboard box. But because he
> made waves. Waves that we caught. Waves that the straights and
> sheeple might catch.
I'd be interested in opinions on why they locked up Toto. The legal
docs John Young obtained and put on up on the web (look at the bottom
of http://www.jya.com cryptome page for `Carl Johnson'), says that it
is because he made a threat.
What about the following excerpt from the Toto post below could be
construed to constitute a danger, or did Toto get locked up because he
walked right up to the IRS and said "Fuck You", and "here I am come
and get me".
I have inserted the odd comment. Anyone like to comment on how likely
a case by the IRS based on this post by `Toto' is to stick? The AP
bot mockup I think was clearly not a credible threat, it was
: OFFICIAL 'PHYSICAL' DEATH THREAT!!!
: The pen is mightier than the sword. Thus, I prefer to wage my
: 'war to the death' against those who would stomp on my basic
: human rights *"in the interests of National Security"* with my
: electronic pen, on the InterNet, using encryption when I have
: reason to fear persecution by Facist, Nazi motherfuckers.
: [* ~~ TruthMonger Vernacular Translation ~~ "so that the
: government can maintain its authority over the citizens
: by use of force and violation of human rights, rather than
: going to all of the trouble of acting in a manner that will
: garner the citizens' respect."]
Pen is mightier than sword, prefers words to actions, no threat there.
: I will continue to express my thoughts through the words
: I send electronically over the InterNet, both publically
: and privately. I will fight to the bandwidth death against
: anyone who wants to deny me my right to express my opinions
: and access the opinions of those who also wish to express
: their own opinions and share their true thoughts with their
: fellow humans.
he will fight to the "bandwidth death" (argue vigorously and
verbosely) anyone who tries to interfere with right to private
communication. No threat.
: If the ElectronicMagnetic Curtain slams down around me,
: then I will have no choice but to continue my current fight
: in MeatSpace.
: And I am not alone...
Says if he is prevented from communicating privately
(ElectronicMagnetic Curtain he used early to refer to key escrow
attempts, and government intrusions) he will continue his fight in
meat space. Just rhetoric, nothing illegal about fighting words.
: I will share the same 'DEATH THREAT!!!' with Judges Fletcher,
: Nelson and Bright that I have shared with the President and
: a host of Congressional and Senatorial representatives:
So he sent the following quoted paragraph to [email protected]?
Sending threats to [email protected] however rhetorical is a
sure-fire way to get an immediate visit from men in dark suits.
However that has nothing to do with the IRS. And the "threat" appears
to be an expression of annoyance with the government, and a possibly a
general prediction rather than any kind of specific threat:
: "You can fuck some of the people all of the time, and all of
: the people some of the time, but you are going to end up in a
: body bag or a pine box before you manage to fuck all of the
: people all of the time."
Rhetoric, word play on quote "you can fool all of the people some of
the time, some of the people all of the time, but not all of the
people all of the time".
: Am *I* going to whack you out? Maybe...
Sounding a bit more specific there, though it is only a "Maybe...",
and the following literary quotes suggest he is more ranting than
People on list have suggested that it is better to vent anger with
unspecific third person comments "They ought to be taken out and
shot", "they should be the first against the wall come the
revolution". But I am not up to speed on the legal issues here.
It seems likely as a whole that Toto is just ranting. And surely once
they have pulled him in they have to show some actual credible plan.
Mere ranting about officials I presume is not grounds for locking
: I would prefer just dumping some tea in Boston Harbor, if that
: will get my message across in MeatSpace, but if it won't, then
: I guess I will have to take stronger action.
Toto's MeatSpace "actions" to date seems to have been symbolic. The
"bomb" in the canadian court-house basement which anonymous nicely
charactarized as a cardboard box with "bomb" written on it.
: There are undoubtedly a plethora of LEA's ready and willing to
: prosecute and imprison me for agreeing with Patrick Henry, who
: said, "Give me liberty, or give me death."
: The irony, of course,
: is that I do not pose a great danger to anyone but myself as
: long as I continue to have my human rights and my liberty
: The chances of me actually getting off of my fat butt and
: going out into the real world to whack out the enemies of
: freedom are probably pretty small (unless I run out of
: cigarettes and beer, and wouldn't have to make an extra
Saying he isn't going to do anything, actually.
: I fully understand that this does not lessen the potential
: of any LEA who gets a wild hair up their butt to throw a
: mountain of taxpayer resources into prosecuting me and
: imprisoning me for their own professional/political gain.
Predicting his incarceration for political reasons, for exercising his
right to political speech.
: However, if you are performing actions so outrageously against
: basic human rights and freedoms as to get me off of my lazy ass,
: then I am the least of your problems, because there undoubtedly
: are millions of people more functional than myself (who get out
: of the house and go further than the liquor store) who are less
: willing than myself to put up with increasingly heavy chains
: placed around their hands and feet 'in the interests of national
Expressing opinion that increasingly facist government is going to
lead to political unrest.
: Feel free to have the Federales break down my door and
: imprison me for pointing out the obvious. After all, I fit
: the profile of a domestic terrorist--I quote the Constitution
: and the Bill of Rights, and I speak out against increasingly
: big government.
Come and get me, I sound like a terrorist in that I quote the
constitution, speak out against big government.
: But remember...it's the quiet ones you've got to watch...
: If you force everyone to 'be quiet', then you've got a world
: of trouble on your hands.
Followed by a few tips on how to find him, and a few comments about
cluelessness of LEAs.
: NOTICE TO LEA AGENTS IN NEED OF A CAREER BOOST!
: However, if you want to go to the trouble of tracking me
: down, I will give you some hints, since it seems likely that
: anyone who has trouble finding a ton of cocaine at an
: airport might not be competent in CyberSpace, either.
: You might want to check with the Webmasters at the sites
: quoted above to see who has accessed their web sites this
: morning. The anonymous remailer I will be using is an open
: secret to CypherPunks around the world as a really bad
: attempt at disguising my true MeatSpace identity.
Talking perhaps about his sympatico account which someone claiming to
be Toto claims else-where was shared with a number of hackers. Don't
recall what the headers on the mail indicated it was from.
: this alone
: ought to be enough for some aggressive young LEA and/or
: federal prosecutor to earn themself some brownie-points,
: since I am a sorry enough son-of-a-bitch that they would not
: have much trouble convicting me in front of a jury of 'their'
: peers, assuming that they can make certain that I am not
: tried by a jury of my own peers.
Telling them he is an easy catch, because he will be easy to make look
bad in a court.
: Bonus Points:
: I can also be tied into Jim Bell's Worldwide Conspiracy to
: assassinate government authorities, through my implementation
: of an Assassination Bot.
Pointing them to his AP bot mockup.
: (I am willing to 'rat out' Jim for two bottles of Scotch. If
: he is willing to rat _me_ out for less, then I guess it's
: just my hard luck, eh? <--that's another hint!)
: You can also charge me with use of 'conventional' encryption
: in the commission of a crime.
: Must be your lucky fucking day, eh?
Reference to use of `encryption in commission of a crime' provisions
in recent proposed bills.