From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Adam Back Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 01:10:21 +0800 To: whgiii@amaranth.com Subject: IRA (was Re: [CONTROVERSIAL]: A Defense of Terrorism) In-Reply-To: <199706081214.HAA02893@mailhub.amaranth.com> Message-ID: <199701081748.RAA00773@server.test.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain William Geiger writes > Paul Bradley writes: > >I live in mainland England. NI, although still violent, is now not the > >only place bombed by the IRA, until a few years ago they mainly attacked > >targets in NI, they now bomb all over the country. > > Well I can only see this as a good thing. :) > > It is the people of England that support that illegal occupation of Irish > soil by Brittish troops. It is only right that they should have to suffer > the consequences. Personally I would be happy for all UK police and military forces to pull out of Northern Ireland. Give it back to them, see if I care. What difference can it make to me? Foreign intervention is a waste of time in my book. However, here are a few things you might be interested to know. I understand the majority of people in Northern Ireland do not want to be part of Southern Ireland. The people in NI have been there for multiple generations, and probably also don't want to be relocated to England. Many of these people are English descent and their ancestors where given land by the British government which was stolen from native Irish about 300 years ago. They have also intermarried. British government was brutal at that time, before they turned soft and lost their empire. (You might see parallels with the US, where you guys are also living on stolen property). Perhaps most NI people would not actually be that badly off if they were part of SI. You should also realise that IRA and supporters are minority in NI today, for a sense of perspective. In the mean time the IRA and the opposing paramilitary organisation blow up, assasinate, knee-cap each other, protestants, catholics, joy riders, and a few innocent bystanders, and I think both deal in drugs, and are involved in organised crime to fund their activities. IRA makes attempts to blow up UK politicians. Managed to smuggle rocket launcher in van with hole cut in roof to within a few hundred yards of 10 Downing St. But they missed. (Dimitri says: shame, shame, and increases Sinn Fein campaign contributions in the hope they are better funded next time.) (I forget name, but there is a non-governmental paramilitary group on other side to IRA in NI, occasionally there is rumor that British Army is feeding this paramilitary organisation names of IRA suspects to hit, to save them the trouble). You guys remember the Faulkland Islands thing under Thatcher? Some miniscule lump of rock with a few hundred sheep farmers on it? UK government sent warships etc at multiple billion cost. Would've been cheaper to desert rock, and give each and every inhabitant a cool $1 million relocation expenses. But no, had to waste money because some alterior motive, suitable missile outpost or something. Wonder what the interest is in Northern Ireland? Should give the Irish (go Paddy) back Northern Ireland, Scottish autonomy also (haggis home rule:-). Wales (leeks) too, yeah. Fragmented government is a good thing, divide and conquer. I understand the Muslims want their own government over here also! Some Scottish people want home rule (Scottish Independence Party?), they had a vote on it and lost a while back. Wales is a poor part of the country, some richer people have bought second home holiday cottages in picturesque welsh country side. Result: drives up prices for poorer locals. A few welsh started burning down such cottages. Some Welsh also want independence. They have road signs in English and in a language which most of the locals can't even read. Similar thing in Southern Ireland. (Desparately hanging on to heritage). Adam ps Paddy is generic name for an Irishman, a haggis is a stuffed part of sheeps anatomy, a peculiar highland delicacy, nick name for Scotsman, leek is a vegetable, some kind of Welsh emblem, and used as name for Welshman. Scots call English Sasenachs (I lived in Scotland for a couple of years, you get so you can understand what it is they're saying after a while :-). Not sure of Welsh and Irish names for English. US name is `Limey'. OK `Yankees' :-) Vote Indian home rule: Running Deer for president. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Attila T. Hun" Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:40:51 -0800 (PST) To: CYPHERPUNKS-OUTGOING-KSIUW@toad.com Subject: YEEHAW! Tobacco argument heats up in AZ Message-ID: <199701230640.WAA06726@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- summary: AZ AG filed for an injunction in the public interest to stop the sale of tobacco in AZ. tobacco company response claimed he was infringing on legislative rights... full story is below. pure warmed-over buffalo chips --the tobacco interests. ...create a conflict between the judiciary and the legislative branches since the judiciary can ban the sale of something the legislative branch has decided to regulate and collect taxes from ... ? where did this boy learn his logic, let alone his law (of course, who ever said any lawyer used logic any more than statistics are used to defend lies?) big tobacco will spend at least $200 million, maybe even $1 billion in advertising and diversions to avoid this one --this is not a tort issue with delayable appeals --this is injunctive relief which could stop the sale of tobacco in a single hearing. bravo! and, I'll bet AZ never passed legislation which states the death merchants have a mandated "right" to sell tobacco products, even though the legislature did elect to pass a law to "regulate" the sale of tobacco. a mandated right implies endorsement, and places the endorser in the product liability chain. A fine line maybe for the tobacco companies to hang their hats on, but a Grand Canyon worth of the state if there has no "right" to sell granted --granting a "right to sell" would be tantamount to endorsing the sale of tobacco products. this may be the perfect shot. let's see how long before the ACLU jumps in! and, on which side will they jump?!? Is 'smoking' a libertarian privilege cranted unconditionally to the people despite the side effects, and collatgeral damage, even if you do not smoke? This case should draw enough amicus curiae to require an entirely new complex of libraries just to hold the pleadings, and an army of law clerks with a massively parallel database to catalogue and service the briefs. I can see the fine hand of the Association of Attorney Generals driving this one. Arizona is constituted just mean enough to take this kind of action. Let's see how long it is before the Feds try to step in on the possible Constitutional grounds of regulating trade between the states, or claiming "jurisdiction" under rule 10 FRCP where the combatants are of differing 'citizenship' AND the amount is more than $10,000 (the injunctive relief has no monetary value in and of itself) can be moved by any party to the Federal court having jurisdiction (that was how I prevented AT&T from moving from NV to NY or NJ where they could stall forever and indulge in the usual payoffs). --as an aside, I wonder if we could ban tobacco sales in Utah by referendum? if the population is 70% LDS, the rural more likely to follow the word of wisdom active members might be enough to tip the vote on a referendum. hmmm. that would send a message even McCaffey and Reno would have a problem with --there is no medical defense for tobacco. As for the loss of revenue argument, the excise taxes the state collects from the sale of tobacco certainly does not cover the increased health costs and the collateral economic and social costs associated with tobacco related health problems. the state might have a net loss position initially, but over the long run, the reduced health costs will more than cover the loss of tobacco excise tax. meanwhile, back to prohibition: rolling your own from back yard weeds is a lot harder than making bathtub gin! == "When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators" --P.J. O'Rourke. == "hunt lawyers, not big game! lawyers are more numerous, you can not become attached to them, and they taste just like chicken." --attila -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later. iQCVAwUBMubQI704kQrCC2kFAQFeFgP+MUBbpn9yNDi2NmSZd2D5qlUvYIyobPd7 ppVxG2Wne5cywM9NWRYGCUA4g2QxlYRA7+sAxbxKa0kLpjhW38IAe8ea/0NnkH+P exTvtUTD35sAU6bl5ypGsFF/1Nuzy7+UWIKdm7LROPjiNMp+C/TEQQrHR5jF1x5A EoWkoBzrwTs= =1+2g -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- :: 06:30 PM ET 01/14/97 :: Tobacco industry seeks dismissal of Arizona case :: :: PHOENIX, Arizona (Reuter) - The tobacco industry filed :: motions on Tuesday in a bid to dismiss the Arizona Attorney :: General's law suit which seeks to ban the sale of tobacco in the :: state. :: Lawyers for two of the defendants, Brown & Williamson :: Tobacco Corp. and Philip Morris Cos Inc. (MO.N), said in a :: statement the proposed ban would eliminate tax revenue from the :: sale of tobacco which is used to fund healthcare and education :: programs statewide. :: "We have filed motions asking the court ... whether these :: claims should be permitted to proceed,'' said William Maledon a :: lawyer at Osborn Maledon which represents Philip Morris Inc. :: "We believe it is clear that the Attorney General has no :: authority to initiate at least six of the 11 claims he has :: brought,'' he said. :: The tobacco industry on Tuesday filed eight motions to :: dismiss the suit in Maricopa County Superior Court in Arizona. :: The Arizona lawsuit against the tobacco industry was filed :: in August and amended by the state's attorney general in :: November. :: The suit seeks to ban the sale of tobacco products statewide :: and recover increased healthcare insurance premiums the state :: alleges to have paid for ``tobacco-related illnesses'' by state :: employees and their dependents. :: The suit also seeks ``corrective'' advertising and funding :: of programs to help people give up smoking as well as :: unspecified damages for alleged consumer fraud, restraint of :: trade and civil racketeering. :: Paul Eckstein, an attorney with Brown & Bain which :: represents Brown & Williamson, said Arizona would suffer should :: the attorney general win the suit. :: "If the Attorney General prevails on this public nuisance :: argument, the tobacco tax revenue source would be eliminated :: without legislative input,'' he said. :: "This raises the question of which state programs would be :: eliminated for lack of funding,'' he added. :: The lawyers said Arizona collected $650.5 million in tobacco :: excise taxes from 1980 through 1993 and that the state will :: collect another $167.5 million in fiscal 1996. :: "The Arizona Legislature has not chosen to ban the sale or :: use of tobacco, but rather regulate and profit from it,'' :: Eckstein said. ``This lawsuit would create a direct and :: irreconcilable conflict between the judicial and legislative :: branches of government.'' From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:16:35 -0800 (PST) To: "'aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk> Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls Message-ID: <199701212016.MAA11119@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Adam Back wrote in article <5bp18k$1cc@life.ai.mit.edu>... > GSM encrypts only the links to the station - the traffic goes in the > clear through the station. Plus A5 (crypto algorithm used in GSM) is > weak, 40 bits of effective key space. > > It could be worse to have poor crypto, than no crypto, I disagree for two reasons, first there is a big difference between having poor locks and no locks. Most locks can be picked by an expert, they are effective against many theifs however. Second if everyone in the world was using 40 bit email encryption it would prevent most of the "promiscuous" interception of communications. The danger in weak crypto is thinking that it is strong crypto. GSM is weak crypto but stops the type of snooping the Martins engaged in. If you know not to talk about something secret on one then low crypto is better than having a signal anyone can pick up on a device from radio shack. Phill From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:15:41 -0800 (PST) To: ichudov@algebra.com Subject: Re: Numbers we cannot talk about Message-ID: <199701212015.MAA11107@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > > I know that Standard mathematical axioms yields lots of interesting > > results, but when it talks of the infinite and we are dealing > > with a practical subject like cryptography or even physics it > > should not be taken too seriously. (With respect to uncountable sets.) > > Some of the applications of these theories are very relevant. For > example, a theorem that proves that it is impossible to write a program > that would determine if any other program would stop or loop forever, is > very relevant and interesting. Absolutely, something does not have to be practical to be interesting, Igor`s example of Cantors double slash argument (useful for example in AI research) is something that seems very abstract until we find a use for it, and most abstract mathematical concepts and theorems of this kind do eventually come into use by some other class of scientists. Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey" From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:14:53 -0800 (PST) To: Anonymous Subject: Re: IMDMP: SOURCE CODE RELEASE ANNOUNCEMENT Message-ID: <199701212014.MAA11084@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > >> ...but I must say the list has gone downhill sharply since > >> the start of the censorship. > > > >I guess this a classic case of seeing what you want to see. > >(Uh, Paul, the moderation experiment HASN'T STARTED YET.) I knew that when I wrote this, but the fact that Vulis has been banned from the list is most definitely censorship and has lowered the philiosophy of the list (as in original purpose and ideaology) to a lower plane and provoked a number of flame wars which would otherwise have not taken place. > No, he's got it right. The announcement of the moderation experiment > was followed by a decline in interesting threads. I noticed this too but it was not what I was referring to. Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey" From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:11:41 -0800 (PST) To: m5@vail.tivoli.com Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment Message-ID: <199701212011.MAA11021@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Mike McNally wrote: > Why anyone would expect any particular degree of > "freedom" to use a service run for free by a private individual > is beyond me. I agree, totally. Just because an individual claims, rightly or wrongly, to be a big defender of freedom, involving himself or herself in causes like those of the Electronic Freedom Foundation, does not take away their right to stomp on anyone who disagrees with them on their own private list. To claim otherwise would be as ludicrous as denying the person running the Anonymizer the right to expose the identities of the people he feels might perhaps be abusing his private system, or using it for nefarious purposes, such as hiding their identity from others. Toto > I appreciate the service, but I don't take it for granted and I > certainly don't take it as an inalienable right. > > ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ > Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin > mailto:m5@tivoli.com mailto:m101@io.com http://www.io.com/~m101 > ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:27:03 -0800 (PST) To: "'Sean Roach'" Subject: RE: Newt's phone calls Message-ID: <199701212027.MAA11297@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain get everything needed on a signed cheque. > >A check is no good, most checks are now printed on paper with special lines >that are supposed to become obvious after copying. A signed letter or even >a mailing envelope would probably be better. Actually for the purposes of fax you can trace the signature off the check and then photocopy the traced outline. If you use Mellonex film you can get a very good impression. > Also, scotch tape makes those >pexky shadows disapear like magic. My dad uses it to make multiple versions >of make-up math tests that trivially look like the origional in order to >goad persons who were sick on test day so that they could get the answers >from someone else into printing down those answers and getting less than >random probability. (multiple choice) When I used to do layout of artwork for a magazine we used to use white out to get rid of the shadow lines. There is a particularly good version available in the UK which comes in a red bottle with a flow cap on it. Much better than the crappy pot 'n brush system which is always going hard as the solvent evaporates. Phill PS: I hasten to add that my experience of fraud techniques comes from trying to stop them. PPS: In the days of electronic mail why do people need PS's? From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:44:28 -0800 (PST) To: Lucky Green Subject: Netscape to use Cybercash? Message-ID: <199701212144.NAA12421@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain (S.Schear tells me that he thinks the lack of anonymity in payment schemes is what is primarily what is holding them back, not good GUI interfaces. I consider this hogwash, but maybe we can agree to disagree.) Lucky Green writes: >Netscape has announce that Navigator will ship with CyberCash. >There is definitely movement at the browser/server end. whoa, I missed this. was there any discussion on this list? or is it just because we are drowning in noise? any more specifics? I personally am hoping for a point-and-click interface with the piggybank/cost HTML tag scenario I described. also, any ETA? From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Korinne Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:16:44 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: DATANET SECURITY 97 PROGRAM Message-ID: <199701212016.MAA11127@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Conference program Datanet Security 1997 Annual International Conference and Exhibition on Wide Area Network Securit= y FEBRUARY 17 - 18 - 19 - 20, 1997 HYATT REGENCY MIAMI HOTEL & CONVENTION CENTER All lectures and presentations have been confirmed Keynote speakers: Monday February 17, 1997 The 1997 Datanet Security conference will be opened with a keynote address by Dr. Ruth A. David, Deputy Director Science & Technology of the Central Intelligence Agency. =20 Following the opening address, Mr. Stuart A. Baker will deliver a keynote speech "Legal Aspects of Network Security". Stuart Baker is partner with Steptoe & Johnson in Washington DC, and former lead counsel for the National Security Agency. Keynote speakers: Tuesday February 18, 1997 The second day of the Annual Datanet Security Conference is highlighted with a presentation by Dr. Rob Kolstad "Non-Security Issues Affecting the Future of the Internet". Rob Kolstad is President of BSDI Inc. "What's Slowing down Deployment of Security ?" is the title of the next keynote address by Novell's Chief Security Architect, Dr. Radia Perlman. She was featured in the 20th anniversary edition of Data Communications magazine as one of 20 most influential people in the field of computer networking.=20 Keynote speaker: Wednesday February 19, 1997 This conference day we feature Mr. Scott Charney as a prominent keynote speaker. Scott Charney is the principal government authority on computer crime. He heads the federal prosecutors and leads the Computer Crime and Intellectual Properties Section within the Department of Justice.=20 ADVANCED TECHNOLOGY PROGRAM Monday February 17, 1997 ELECTRONIC INTELLIGENCE "Intelligence Behind the Journal Intelligence" - Olivier Schmidt Olivier Schmidt is founding editor of several important international professional news journals and expert publications. Among these "Parapolitics", "Intelligence Newsletter" and "Intelligence". He co-authored "Intelligences Secretes" and "OSS et la Resistance Francaise". He lives and works in Paris, France. "The King of Secret Readers: Edgar Allen Poe, William Friedman, and the Logic of the Cold War" - Professor Shawn Rosenheim Shawn J. Rosenheim is Associate Professor of English at Williams College (Williamstown, Mass.), and a founding member of the Communications Technologies Research Group. His most recent publication is "The Cryptographic Imagination: Secret Writing from Edgar Poe to the Internet" (Johns Hopkins University Press, 1996) DISCUSSION PANEL Traditional versus New Technologies: A Challenge for the Intelligence Communities Session and Panel Chairman - David Whipple David Whipple is Executive Director of the Association of Former Intelligence Officers, AFIO. As no other Mr. Whipple is able to illustrate the traditional methods of information gathering.=20 INTERNET SECURITY The Changing Role of the Firewall - Stephen Flaig Mr. Flaig is Vice President for LanOptics Inc., developers of the Guardian firewall. Network Access Flexibility through RADIUS - David Dawson David Dawson is General Manager Network Security Business Unit for Ascend Communications Inc. Previously he was Chief Executive Officer of Morningstar Technologies Inc. He holds a BS in Electrical Engineering from the US Military Academy at West Point. Internet Security and the IBM Firewall - Peter Crotty Peter Crotty is worldwide responsible for IBM's technical firewall support program. Secure Access: If you don't have security everywhere, you don't have it anywhere ! - Doug LaBorde Mr. LaBorde is Manager with the Network Security Business Unit of Ascend Communications. NT SECURITY Windows NT Security: Networked Perspectives - Charles Rutstein Charles Rutstein is Principal Consultant with Price Waterhouse, and has extensive front line computer and network security experience. He authored several books on computer viruses. His latest work, dealing with Windows NT security, has just been released. NT Internet Security - Firewalls, Web-servers, and Vulnerabilities - Bill Stout Bill Stout is network security analyst and senior systems administrator with Hitachi Data Systems. He specializes in Windows NT security issues. VIRUSES Viruses and the Internet; email, Java, Active-X; the new virus carriers - Thierry Giron Thierry Giron holds a Computer Science Hon. degree from Middlesex University (London, UK), and a Business degree from ESC in Reims, France. He joined Trend Micro in Taiwan in 1992, and is since Trend's Customer Engineering Manager for the North American offices. Minimizing the Virus Threat - Glenn Jordan Glenn Jordan is the leading virus technology expert with Dr. Solomon, and is an established member of the Computer Anti-virus Research Organization, an international network of anti-virus researchers. Mr. Jordan is a graduate of the University of North Carolina. Tuesday February 18, 1997 INTERNET SECURITY Cyber Thieves - Gregg Lebovitz Gregg Lebovitz is Director of Security Products at BBN Planet. Mr. Lebovitz spent 15 years at Carnegy-Mellon University, designing, implementing and deploying network routers and distributed applications. Accounting for Square-Root Attacks in Cryptographic Design - Michael Wiener Michael Wiener is senior cryptologist with Entrust Technologies (formerly Nortel Secure Networks). His expertise is in the area of cryptanalysis, authentication, and key-exchange protocols, public-key infrastructures, design of cryptographic systems, and high-speed implementations of public-key cryptosystems. He is agraduate of the University of Waterloo (Canada).=20 Virtual Private Networking: Integrating Internet and Intranet Security - Tony Rosati Tony Rosati is co-founder and Vice President for TimeStep Corporation. He leads design teams ranging from the development of public-key and DES based integrated circuits to the development of system level communications security solutions utilizing cryptographic techniques. =20 Approaching End-to-End Security - Paul Ferguson Paul Ferguson is a senior expert with Cisco Systems. His principal disciplines are Internet security, large-scale routing and design architecture. NETWORK SECURITY Assurance in Products for the Internet - Alan Borrett Alan Borrett is member of the UK IT Evaluation & Certification Scheme, under authority of Her Majesty=92s Government Communications Headquarters (= GCHQ) Computer Security in the Third World: The Mexican Case - Prof. Guillermo Mallen Professor Mallen teaches and researches at the Ibero-Americana University in Mexico. He is a former President of the Mexican Academy of Informatics.=20 Single Point Security: The Unisys Vision for Enterprise Security Administration - William Buffam William Buffam is software architect with Unisys Corp. His background is in operating systems, networking, and solution engineering. He holds a Computer Science degree from the University of Manchester. Security Solutions for the Internet - Eli Herscovitz Mr. Herscovitz is founder of RadGuard Ltd., provider of secure datanetwork systems. He chairs the Networking Security Standardization Committee of the Standards Institute of Israel. TUTORIAL Hacker Tools & Techniques and Intrusion Testing - A dual presentation by Edward Skoudis and Cynthia Cullen Cynthia Cullen is a senior consultant with Bell Communications Research Security and Fraud Management. Edward Skoudis is a senior expert in network security issues with Bellcore's Navesink Research Center. Wednesday February 19, 1997 COMPUTER CRIME Network Security's Future - Glenn Gianino Glenn Gianino is Vice President of Advanced Technology with Computer Associates International. His responsibilities included all systems software and hardware including micro, midrange, and mainframe systems, as well as all networking, SNA, wide area networks and Internet services. His most recent assignment involves networking security on all platforms and operating systems. Mining the Information Klondike: CINet, a tool to fight organized crime - Robert Heibel Robert Heibel is Director of the research/intelligence analyst program at Mercyhurst College (PA). A 25-year veteran of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, he served as its Deputy Chief of Counterterrorism. Mr. Heibel is also Executive Director of the Center for Information Research, Analysis, and Training at Mercyhurst. Mr. Heibel is a graduate of Georgetown University. Digital Cash is hard to regulate - Prof. Michael Froomkin Professor Michael Froomkin is associate professor at the University of Miami, School of Law at Coral Gables. He specializes in Internet law and related aspects. Professor Froomkin is a graduate of the Yale Law School, and has a M.Phil. in history of international relations from Cambridge University (UK). He is a Fellow of the Cyberspace Law Institute. Smart Cards: the Coming Wave - James Chen James Chen is founder and President of V-One Corp., a provider of network and internetwork security solutions. Previously Mr Chen was head of the ground network engineering division for Intelsat, responsible for satellite launches.=20 Electronic Commerce on the Internet - Tom Carty Tom Carty is Director of CyberTrust, a division of GTE. Mr. Carty was responsible for the information security privacy organization and architecting key management systems with GTE. He is a graduate of the University of Connecticut and Boston University. ATM: An Emerging Network Technology - Michael Guzelian Michael Guzelian has over 15 years experience in and knowledge of authentication, bandwidth-on-demand, and security issues that face large public networks. DISCUSSION PANEL High Integrity/Mission Critical Systems Session and Panel Chairman - Donald L. Evans Presentations by: Donald Evans, Timothy Stacey and Robert Smock Donald Evans is senior security engineer and senior member of the Johnson Space Center Mission Operations Directorate AIS Security Engineering Team, providing assistance to NASA in developing and maintaining the IS security program for the Space Station and Shuttle ground based programs. He is an advisory board member for the NSA Systems Security Engineering Capability Maturity Model, and a member of the Presidential Sub-committee of the US Security Policy Board. Timothy Stacey was involved with security development for NASA's Space Shuttle and Space Station programs and software engineering in support of NASA and the US Air Force Space Command Systems. He is currently a information security expert with SAIC Space Operations. Robert Smock is head of Flight Operations Information Security Program at United Space Alliance, responsible for providing the primary government contractor support for the protection of NASA's ground-based information resources, which support Space Shuttle and Space Station flight operations at the Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas.Mr Smock holds a degree in Computer Science. TUTORIAL Network Security: PRIVATE Communication in a PUBLIC World Dr. Radia Perlman and Charlie Kaufman Radia Perlman is Chief Security Architect for Novell, Inc. She is known for the invention of the spamming tree algorithm used by bridges, and many of the algorithms used for routing, including the design of a network that can withstand a denial of service attack. She is the author of two textbooks. She has a PhD from MIT. Charlie Kaufman is security architect for Lotus Notes/Domino. He is the chair of the web transaction security working group of the IETF. He is on the National Academy of Sciences expert panel on computer system trustworthiness. He is coauthor with Radia Perlman, of the book "Network Security: Private Communications in a Public World". Thursday February 20, 1997 INTERNET SECURITY Fighting Piracy on the Net - Peter Beruk Peter Beruk is Director of Domestic Anti-Piracy with the Software Publishers Association. Internet and Server Security - Joshua Peleg Joshua Peleg is the Director of Technical services with Memco Software. Mr. Pelegs expertise is in security, disaster recovery and system level programming. Joshua gained much of his experience while in the Israeli military defense forces. Is your Company a Hackers Help Desk ? - Steve Ritger Steve Ritger is security engineer with SRA International. His expertise is information and network security as well as fraud detection and prevention. JAVA SECURITY Security and "Live" content: A Java Perspective - Peter Coffee Peter Coffee is advanced technologies analyst for PC Week Labs. He has taught information systems management, management science and expert systems development for Pepperdine University, Chapman College, and UCLA. He is the author of "How to program Java". Mr. Coffee is a graduate of MIT and Pepperdine University. TUTORIAL World Wide Web Security Arthur Donkers Arthur Donkers is founder of Le Reseau, an independent security consulting firm in The Netherlands (Europe). He is a graduate of Delft University of Technology, and holds a degree in Electrical Engineering. He authors a monthly column on system administration and security aspects in SysAdmin Magazine. ------------0---------------- =20 Datanet Security 97 is sponsored by the National Association of Webmasters, SysAdmin Magazine, Sprint, and CMP Network Computing Magazine.=20 ---------------------------0-------------------------- Participation in Datanet Security 97 is $ 845. This includes admission to all conference sessions, tutorials and discussion panels, as well as lunches during the four days, a banquet, and a cruise to the Bahama islands (including breakfast, lunch, dinner and show). You can pay on-line via a secure web transaction with all major credit cards. A special hotel arrangement has been made with Hyatt Regency Miami, making discounted room rates available to all participants. The web page with full information is available at http://www.datasec.net Alternatively you can fax 941 775 1533, or email ds97@datasec.net. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jeff Barber Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:14:29 -0800 (PST) To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls Message-ID: <199701212014.MAA11069@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Phillip M. Hallam-Baker writes: > Adam Back wrote in article <5bp18k$1cc@life.ai.mit.edu>... > > It could be worse to have poor crypto, than no crypto, > > I disagree for two reasons, [ snip] > The danger in weak crypto is thinking that it is strong crypto. GSM is > weak crypto but stops the type of snooping the Martins engaged in. > If you know not to talk about something secret on one then low > crypto is better than having a signal anyone can pick up on a > device from radio shack. No, the real danger in weak crypto is that the poorly-informed will not think about it *at all*. If we had "poor crypto", Newt probably wouldn't have been embarrassed by this sort of casual interception, and the issue wouldn't have been raised in the public mind. But our communications still wouldn't be safe from more determined attackers. Brouhahas like these are good for the pro-(strong-)crypto agenda. -- Jeff From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Lucky Green Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:44:36 -0800 (PST) To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" Subject: Re: Netscape to use Cybercash? Message-ID: <199701212144.NAA12429@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 12:33 PM 1/21/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: >Lucky Green writes: >>Netscape has announce that Navigator will ship with CyberCash. >>There is definitely movement at the browser/server end. > >whoa, I missed this. was there any discussion on this list? or >is it just because we are drowning in noise? any more specifics? Netscape put out a press release on this in October (?). That's all I know. Look at their web site. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime. http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Nurdane Oksas Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:15:45 -0800 (PST) To: Jane Jefferson Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment Message-ID: <199701212015.MAA11113@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Jane Jefferson wrote: > Also Sprach Toto: > > > > If what you say is true, then Dr. DV K's efforts are quite possibly > > the most important issue being addressed in this conference, because > > behind free speech, lies the most important issue of all--when does > > it start, and when does it stop. > > Exactly. > > > The military-industrial complex proclaims this necessary for the > > purposes of state-security, and denies that it is used in order to keep > > their 'sins' from being exposed. (If you believe this, then please > > contact me by private email regarding an ocean-front property I have > > available in Tucson, AZ. If you act quickly, I will throw in a set > > of the Amazing Ginzu Knives as an added bonus.) > > The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good", > and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to > individual. If Dr. Vulis is indeed an adjunct professor at Fordham > University, I think that perhaps he has been hanging out and drinking > too many beers with my former philosophy professor Quentin Lauer. ;-7 You know smoking causes wrinkles... :) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:26:19 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: fingerd Message-ID: <199701212026.MAA11261@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > > Lynx 2.6 is the "latest" for UNIX and they "got" mine. However, > >someone suggesed that it may have been done through finger as well, and > >since my ocmputer is a UNIX box...the people using UNIX shells are gonna > >get nailed too... > > Couple of things you can do: > > 1. Comment out "fingerd" in /etc/inetd.conf and refresh > 2. Install a more secure "fingerd" such that it only > allows "finger `userid@node.domain`" instead of > "finger `@node.domain`". > > While I've seen #2 in action, I don't know where to go to snarf it. I just > use #1. Anyone know where to 'snarf it'? From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Nurdane Oksas Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:14:05 -0800 (PST) To: "Igor Chudov @ home" Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment Message-ID: <199701212014.MAA11058@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > Jane Jefferson wrote: > > > > The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good", > > and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to > > individual. > > An excellent point, Jane. Worth remembering. Why not archive it ...as it may be worth something someday.... oksas From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Nurdane Oksas Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:25:31 -0800 (PST) To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Subject: Re: GSM technology Message-ID: <199701212025.MAA11236@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > Nurdane Oksas writes: > > > ADSL will be the best for movies... i can't wait . > > What kind of movies? You're too young to watch these..:) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:27:18 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks Subject: Fighting the cybercensor. Message-ID: <199701212027.MAA11310@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Mission: Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? The Web was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal. Requirements: A scheme which makes blocking of individual IP addresses impractical. Architecture: The Web allows for proxies such as provided by the CERN server (and versions of Apache etc). A proxy server configured to accept connections from domains enforcing blocking (china, Singapore etc) can serve as a means of circumventing the restrictions. The problem then arises, how can the victims of censorship find out about the holes in the curtain? I believe that it would not be difficult to persuade large numbers of people to mirror a list of sites maintained at a central location. The blue ribbon campaign attracted a lot of interest on the same topic. Activity that brought to light the political aspect of Web censorship would help the domestic anti-CDA effort. Considerations: [i.e. areas needing brainstorming] 1) Copyright. Clearly copyright holders such as CNN etc would need to be involved. Although proxies have long been a part of the Web and the scheme does not threaten their interests it would be as well to get them on board at an early stage. 2) How can one prevent the proxies themselves being blocked? Some ideas that come to mind: 2a) Only issue new sites gradually so that blocking requires continuous updates. 2b) Use DHCP to change network addresses regularly. 2c) Some crypto hack I can't quite work out (hence the post to cypher punks). I can phrase the challenge more compactly though. We have two sets of opposed groups A and M. The A group wish to establish a continued conversation with groups B and C. M is willing to permit communication with group B but not C. Whenever M discovers that a member of group B is willing to act on behalf of group C, M transfers that member to the C group. The problem is to keep A's channels of communication open despite the efforts of M for very large group sizes. I'm not sure if this is a pure crypto challenge or a game theory problem. Comments? If people are willing to work on this I can provide some facilities and act as a media contact. Phill From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Brian D Williams Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:00:04 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: [NONCRYPTO] speaking of ADSL Message-ID: <199701212300.PAA13458@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain ADSL fans may be interested to know that Ameritech has a 200 unit ADSL trial underway in Wheaton Il as I speak. It is going very well. The units are currently running 1.5Mbs, (T-1) but are scheduled to go to 3Mbs later this year. Next year rumor is 6Mbs. In an interesting example of "Brazil Effect", ADSL may first come to older areas, because they are all direct copper. If I could only get ADSL cards for my DMS100. ;) Brian Network Premise engineer Ameritech Data Center Chicago Extropian Cypherpunk From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:26:53 -0800 (PST) To: "'Jeff Barber'" Subject: RE: Newt's phone calls Message-ID: <199701212026.MAA11273@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >No, the real danger in weak crypto is that the poorly-informed will not >think about it *at all*. If we had "poor crypto", Newt probably wouldn't >have been embarrassed by this sort of casual interception, and the issue >wouldn't have been raised in the public mind. But our communications >still wouldn't be safe from more determined attackers. Brouhahas like >these are good for the pro-(strong-)crypto agenda. Not the way we've being going on, Zero coverage of the crypto issue, zip, nada. That points to EFF and CDT not being on the ball on the crypto issue. Phill From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Sean Roach Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:04:46 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: [NOISE] Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment Message-ID: <199701220004.QAA14425@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 08:35 PM 1/20/97 -0800, Toto wrote: > In short, I believe that if the issue of free speech is not one of >the central issues on the CypherPunks list, then the list is merely >one more heartless, unfeeling extension of the Great Machine which >is grinding inexorably forward toward the day when we will all have >its numbers tattoo'd on our forearms. That machine will be the SIXTH model made by a little firm on the thirteenth floor of an office building. It will operate on several thousand 6X86 processors. It will operate either on MSDOS 6.0 or UNIX V6R4, depending on how soon it is completed. And it won't be our forearms, we can cover those with sleeves. It will be our brow. (please excuse the spelling). From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Sean Roach Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:57:58 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft Message-ID: <199701212357.PAA14286@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 09:13 PM 1/20/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote: >At 11:46 AM 1/20/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: >>1. an html tag that indicates how much a link costs, probably in >>the type syntax > >This could be done, but is, IMHO, too inflexible. > Also, with tags, I could download the page with good old fashioned netscape 3.0 Gold, (possibly the last browser without this), allowing me to get the entire page, neutralize the tag either by hand or with a simple app. and view the site sans payment. The blocks that I see to this are server push upon receipt of cash and encrypted pages only accessable upon (automatic) payment, not unlike pay-per-view satellite television. The problem here is the patent that was stirring up trouble here a few months ago. The one that Compuserve stood up against involving the use of this on computer networks. I really think that a tag alone wouldn't be worth much, not without a CGI script to verify it or a JAVA app. to run it. Please correct me if I am in error. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: David Wagner Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:58:41 -0800 (PST) To: cryptography@c2.net Subject: Privacy-enhancing technologies for the Internet Message-ID: <199701232358.PAA00778@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Ian Goldberg, Eric Brewer, and I wrote a paper giving a high-level introduction to privacy-enhancing technologies for the Internet. Nothing terribly new, but it's about time this stuff made it past oral history and into the literature. To be presented at IEEE COMPCON '97 in February. The paper is available on the web. A html version is at http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~daw/privacy-compcon97-www/privacy-html.html and there's a postscript version at http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~daw/privacy-compcon97.ps Comments, critiques, and discussions are welcome. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jeff Barber Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:27:02 -0800 (PST) To: Cypherpunks List Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls Message-ID: <199701212027.MAA11296@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Phillip M. Hallam-Baker writes: > >No, the real danger in weak crypto is that the poorly-informed will not > >think about it *at all*. If we had "poor crypto", Newt probably wouldn't > >have been embarrassed by this sort of casual interception, and the issue > >wouldn't have been raised in the public mind. But our communications > >still wouldn't be safe from more determined attackers. Brouhahas like > >these are good for the pro-(strong-)crypto agenda. > > Not the way we've being going on, Zero coverage of the > crypto issue, zip, nada. It was pointed out (in network newscasts, for example) that cellular communications are completely unprotected and available for the taking by anyone with a radio scanner. I count this as good exposure even if the alternatives weren't explicitly discussed. -- Jeff From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Sean Roach Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:20:11 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment Message-ID: <199701220020.QAA14642@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 12:35 AM 1/21/97 -0500, Jane Jefferson wrote: >Governments, however, are made up of the very same people who claim >to require these rights to privacy. Those people create, codify and >enforce the laws. The problem is that the people who find themselves in >this position of power are not always the most moral or concerned with >the best interest of the majority. > >And fiendishly, it is the very chaos and anarchy and random chance >espoused by proponents of the cypherpunk philosophy that allows these >people to gain this power, unchecked! > >Thus, the real problem ends up being not "how to control the government >so that the government doesn't control us", but "how to deal with the >government when it goes into control-freak mode". That it will go into >such a mode is a given -- based on human nature and history. This is >a fundamental cycle of evolution and human behavior. We have to face >the fact that humans are predators, and as long as we are, the >cycle of this behavior will continue. Also, remember, that those people willing to put up with the responsibility of leadership are more often more extreme control freaks than the rest of the population. Persons asked on the street if they wanted to be president of the United States have often said no way, yet every four years we have at least two people willing to put up with the hassle in order to be the most powerful man in the country. What we need is a leader who is willing to put up with it for h[is/er] people/cause, but has no desire to stay any longer than absolutely necessary. Then we need another just like h[im/er] for the next term. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Sean Roach Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:59:48 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment" Message-ID: <199701212359.PAA14326@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 02:22 AM 1/21/97 -0800, Toto wrote: >Bill Campbell wrote: > >> I feel we at a *critical* crossroads in this debate, and one of the >> more important voices has *very* effectively been silenced. > > Dr. Vulis? There was an 'attempt' to silence him, but it hasn't >worked, to date. > I believe he is referring to silencing the list, not Vulis. As long as the members of this list are argueing over semantics, the government has one less challenger in the fight over our rights. Remember, one of the oldest tactics of war is to turn the enemy against itself. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Sean Roach Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:19:41 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: "Technical data" exemptions in new crypto regs Message-ID: <199701220019.QAA14630@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 04:17 AM 1/21/97 -0500, Richard L. Field wrote: ... > I read the new regs as permitting: (i) publication of source code in >paper form (including publications reproduced on microfilm or on prerecorded >phonograph records), or in the form of a motion picture film and soundtrack >(section 734.3(b)(2)); and, separately, (ii) teaching or discussion of >information "about" cryptography (section 744.9). The export of other >encryption materials (including the distribution to non-US persons of source >or object code on diskettes) is restricted, even if the materials are >publicly available "educational information" for release by instruction in >catalog courses and associated teaching laboratories of academic >institutions (section 734.9). ... This has often reminded me of something that occurred around 1776. I can't remember if it was before or after. Remember how the colonies got sophisticated spinning gear? I believe it was spinning gear. Great Britain had a ban on the export of functional models, diagrams or manufacturing instructions to one particular class of equipment. This was so that they could maintain the monopoly on cheaply made cloth, holding the outlying colonies in line by maintaining a dependancy. One man memorized the structure of one of these machines and then came to the American shores, where he reproduced it workably. I can't remember the name of the man or the machine, just that it was used in the manufacture of cloth, the "spinning jenny" i think. Nor can I remember the date. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Michael Johnson Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:58:09 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: North American crypto archive Message-ID: <199701212358.PAA14297@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain [I'm not on this list, so please CC: me on replies. Thanks!] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- There is another change to the way I distribute strong cryptographic software at my ftp site (ftp://ftp.csn.net/mpj/). The strong cryptographic software is still in a hidden directory with a name that changes periodically, but access is via a password protected web form at http://www.sni.net/~mpj/na/ that has the current hidden directory name expanded in it. To get your very own user name and password, please fill out the form at http://www.sni.net/~mpj/getcrypt.htm, and then watch your email box. This change is to comply with the new Export Administration Regulation (EAR) changes that require "checking the destination machine's address" to ensure that it is in the USA or Canada to avoid being accused of exporting without a license. My many friends outside of North America need not feel left out, however, as I have a nice listing of some good crypto sites that they can legally access at http://www.sni.net/~mpj/freecryp.htm, which probably points to places with most, if not all, of the cryptographic programs that are archived at my site. Although the hoops are not so hard to navigate at crypto sites outside of North America, I hope that a well-connected site in Colorado will provide faster downloads for people in the USA and Canada. This ftp site is rather busy, so if your connection is refused, please try back at a time that is less busy. If you have some high quality, strong cryptographic software or libraries that you would like me to host, please let me know at mpj@csn.net. Space is limited, but I have room for a few more things, like programs to take on the RSA challenge contests, etc. Peace to you. Michael Paul Johnson mpj@csn.net PO Box 1151 http://www.sni.net/~mpj Longmont CO 80502-1151 USA -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.7.1 iQEVAgUBMuVgv2+Iqt/O4EnZAQFCmQgAjgWszTVkWNE5PeYayjsIOTqGFODueqdx gpRZbHhKspZTFlmPfxuB0p2wqflAcKrnC2QhJWJs2Je10vLKNE/4P8dif31I62zc vDJPnpsuXZnjfC1Wo+iPozrpO+0oYb8k9KH/MZNTPDUWpeT2f35tkg2Kzg+eW/2Z 6jJnbLB/IfzZlTb4/bwF12wwUiNNbAR54hnxR1tMaa4wEA+Ti5eFEKtWobhn6hLH HP5fyvSa/adYUj3z8F3As7k/ClcWkyd0ygUVsWXeMphD7nxEEH6Z2JW3OrvyRbjh l//8Egaaz1IgZf+i11C/o/nIJWac0JBqRcSsDBaqMC01+RfN5zrJvw== =TIwr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: ichudov@algebra.com Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:55:39 -0800 (PST) To: Sean Roach Subject: Re: [NOISE] Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment Message-ID: <199701212355.PAA14206@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sean Roach wrote: > That machine will be the SIXTH model made by a little firm on the thirteenth > floor of an office building. > It will operate on several thousand 6X86 processors. > It will operate either on MSDOS 6.0 or UNIX V6R4, depending on how soon it > is completed. > > And it won't be our forearms, we can cover those with sleeves. It will be > our brow. (please excuse the spelling). > yeah, 6000 processors, all managed by MS-DOS. And 30,000 couriers alone. - Igor. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Rick Smith Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:59:49 -0800 (PST) To: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz Subject: Re: Keyword scanning/speech recognition Message-ID: <199701212359.PAA14327@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz wrote: : I was talking to someone recently about the feasibilty of keyword-scanning : phone conversations.... My first "real" job in the computer industry was for a garage shop doing speech recognition. We did a demo system in 1977 for Rome Labs that did exactly what you're asking about: scanning a stream of continuous speech over a telephone line looking for key words. It was tolerably effective: I forget the success rate but it was above 90%. But we were never asked to go past the research prototype. We did it the "hard way" in that we were trying to solve the "talk to the computer" problem which is harder than the "look for something suspicious worth looking closer at" problem. I expect they were looking for something to cut down on their false positives and perhaps we weren't significantly better than what they were already doing. : "Discrete Utterance Speech Recognition without Time Alignment", John Shore : and David Burton, IEEE Trans.Information Theory, Vol.29, No.4 (July 1983), : p.473. : :This generates a feature vector every 10-30ms from input speech which is :compared to pre-generated reference sequences. It also has references to many :other papers covering the same area. When I worked in the field "discrete utterance" was the buzz phrase for talking with - pauses - between - each - word. Ecch. Our commercial systems at the time (late '70s) used discrete speech without time alignment since we could process 8 input channels simultaneously. Ahhh. The joys of microcoding for a 74S181 ALU. Rick. smith@sctc.com secure computing corporation From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Adam Shostack Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:10:56 -0800 (PST) To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls Message-ID: <199701212310.PAA13624@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote: | >No, the real danger in weak crypto is that the poorly-informed will not | >think about it *at all*. If we had "poor crypto", Newt probably wouldn't | >have been embarrassed by this sort of casual interception, and the issue | >wouldn't have been raised in the public mind. But our communications | >still wouldn't be safe from more determined attackers. Brouhahas like | >these are good for the pro-(strong-)crypto agenda. | | Not the way we've being going on, Zero coverage of the | crypto issue, zip, nada. That points to EFF and CDT not | being on the ball on the crypto issue. Was on the NYT op-ed page on Monday. Something about scanners had a few closing paragraphs about the ITARs with a comment from (David Sobel)? Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Steve Schear Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:00:27 -0800 (PST) To: Sean Roach Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls) Message-ID: <199701220200.SAA16125@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>This is the approach taken by PGPfone also. If the value of the >>conversations was high (>$100,000?) passable voice imitation wouldn't >>be that hard I suspect. > >I have long considered how easy it would be to use a sound card to modify >the human voice to match within certain tolerances the voice of another. > >There are currently on the market, phones specifically designed to modify >the voice of the user so that kids can answer as adults, women can answer as >thier own protective boyfriends, bosses can answer anonymous calls as the >secretary, etc... > >There are currently on the market keyboards that allow you to sample some >real world sound and use it as a voice in your music, (the model I saw, a >toy produced by Radio Shack, simply sped up or slowed down the sound to >achieve this.) > >I have thought, if a machine were to take the incoming voice, analize >(apologies for spelling) it to get a spectrum signature, a pattern that can >be added or subtracted from another, and could then add the difference >between that and the victims signature to the users voice, then real-time, >on-the-fly con jobs would be easy. > >The only thing that the user would be responsible for would be the accent, >and the day-to-day vocabulary of the victim. > >I told a friend about this and he confirmed that such was available if you >knew where to look. A friend of mine, an expert on signal processing, vocei systhesis and recognition, showed me a journal article (think it was an IEEE) in 1990 of some university researchers who had prototyped just such a device. Never followed up, but it seems entirely reasonable a practicle. In fact I'm surprised that Hollywood hasn't latched onto this in order to dub film stars to different languages w/o loosing their recognizable voice characteristics. --Steve From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Alec Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:03:25 -0800 (PST) To: ichudov@algebra.com Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment Message-ID: <199701220003.QAA14414@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 12:27 AM 1/21/97 -0600, you wrote: :Jane Jefferson wrote: :> :> The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good", :> and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to :> individual. : :An excellent point, Jane. Worth remembering. : : - Igor. Not only from individual to individual. Please consider the changes in the concepts of "sin", "freedom", "good", and "evil" which occur over time even within the same individual; to wit the on and off again love affair with our nation's past "enemies; individual responses to drug use especially alcohol; premarital sex (ok for me but not my daughter). This constant flux within both society and individual makes creation and implementation of rules extremely difficult and hazardous. Alec From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Blake Coverett Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:58:05 -0800 (PST) To: "cypherpunks@toad.com> Subject: RE: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment Message-ID: <199701212358.PAA14296@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Toto writes: > Just because an individual claims, rightly or wrongly, to be a > big defender of freedom, involving himself or herself in causes > like those of the Electronic Freedom Foundation, does not take > away their right to stomp on anyone who disagrees with them on > their own private list. Of course > To claim otherwise would be as ludicrous as denying the person > running the Anonymizer the right to expose the identities of the > people he feels might perhaps be abusing his private system, or > using it for nefarious purposes, such as hiding their identity > from others. I suspect you intended that to be sarcasm, but to be honest I wouldn't have caught it at all if I wasn't already aware of your views in this area. The person hosting the Anonymizer *does* have the right to do exactly this. I don't believe they would do so, but that is a reputation issue not a question of my rights. If I had entered into a contract with the provider of a service of this nature then I would have a 'right' to expect their contractual obligations to be fulfilled, but that is not the case with the Anonymizer and certainly not with toad.com. regards, -Blake (freedom of the press for those with presses) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 16:56:09 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: GSM technology Message-ID: <199701220056.QAA15164@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Nurdane Oksas writes: > On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > Nurdane Oksas writes: > > > > > ADSL will be the best for movies... i can't wait . > > > > What kind of movies? > > You're too young to watch these..:) I'm older than you... Do you mean I'm too old to watch these? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Blanc Weber Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:12:24 -0800 (PST) To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com> Subject: The Purpose of the List Message-ID: <199701220412.UAA17812@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain If the cpunk list discusses only crypto, then mathematician-programmers will do their cold work in an isolation which eliminates the need to think about the consequences of their actions. So discussions on philosophy, society, etc., are important, to remind everyone of the context within which this subject operates. However, if "community feeling" is the only thing created on the list, and crypto is no longer the focal topic, then what is to be accomplished: the list will become just a playing ground for wayward KOTM PhDs who are not welcome in most other cyberspaces. So the question of "how will this impact society", must maintain association with "but how does this relate to crypto?". (unless the list has changed its stripes, evolving into something completely different, which many will agree it has). .. Blanc From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:40:32 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Keyword scanning/speech recognition (fwd) Message-ID: <199701220240.SAA16615@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:11:24 -0600 > From: Rick Smith > > simultaneously. Ahhh. The joys of microcoding for a 74S181 ALU. Now there is a blast from the past. I was working at UT Austin in '82 on my EE. I had to work part-time at the school for a non-classified project for the DoD (only way they would let students work on projects on the main campus). We were building a non-Von Neumann RTL (mono-bus computer) based router for the ARPANet using the 181's clocked at 40MHz (fastest they were reliable at) as the ALU's behind the registers. Couldn't find a way to saturate the machine (had 64 serial ports driving 64 Z80's @ 4MHz sitting on the RTL bus as addresses registers) on I/O. One of the guys working on the project was taking an electronic music class from one of the members of Journey (who was teaching a 1 time 1 semester class on electronic music) so we ended up using it as a synthesizer. Worked damn well. Don't know what the DoD did with it afterwards. Thanks for the reminder of some fond memories. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage@ssz.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Ross Wright Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:57:16 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: FBI Gets 500 Mil to Tap Your Communications Message-ID: <199701220557.VAA19021@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain ||| FBI moderates its communications-surveillance request ||| TBTF for 5/4/95 [6] In 1995 the FBI asked for and was granted $500 million to augment the government's ability to tap communications (of this total $100M has been released to the FBI so far). Privacy advocates expressed outrage at the FBI's stated capacity goal: to be able to listen in on 1% of installed telephone lines at any time. This translates to about 1.6 million taps simultaneous of all kinds: pen registers, trap-and-trace, and wiretaps. The FBI withdrew its initial proposal under fire and on 1/14 submitted a revised proposal -- press release at [7], analysis at [8]. Unlike the earlier draft, this essay lays out its assumptions and straightforwardly projects needed capacity growth. The result is a capacity figure of fewer than 60,000 intercepts, less that 4% of the original request. This level of capability would allow the FBI simultaneously to monitor more than 500 phone lines in an area with the population of Manhatta still an enormous increase on historical numbers of intercepts. [6] [7] [8] Fuck the FBI. Ross =-=-=-=-=-=- Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906 From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Mark M." Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 18:00:50 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. Message-ID: <199701220200.SAA16134@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote: > 2) How can one prevent the proxies themselves being blocked? Some > ideas that come to mind: > > 2a) Only issue new sites gradually so that blocking requires > continuous updates. I'm not sure how effective this would be. This depends mostly on security through obscurity. If the censors are very dedicated to making sure that all sites containing offending content are blocked, then there might be a few hours between the time when the mirror is set up and when it gets blocked. I prefer to think of the solution to this problem as a denial of service attack rather than just relying on obscurity. If the goal is to make sure that a large number of people have access to the mirrors, then the chances are it will be blocked fairly quickly. If many different diverse sites set up mirrors, this would effectively cut off that country's access to the web. This still does rely on some obscurity, such as being able to change URLs on a site frequently so the whole site has to be blocked instead of just the offending URL. A series of linguistic instructions on generating the URL could easily evade any bot seeking out notices of new URLs. This might be spelling out the URL, telling the user to find the MD5 hash of a specified string (a cgi interface for md5sum might be useful for this example), or any obscure method of encoding an URL that should be easy for any person to understand, but impossible for a program to parse. > 2b) Use DHCP to change network addresses regularly. If this change is regular enough, then it might force the censors to block the whole network and not just the host. Definitely a positive. Mark -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3 Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBMuVsNyzIPc7jvyFpAQGTDwf/UYZ/pZr1WP5KPAJi6NEI1L+3xJR295gW jpHV1pYVweKbozTK3ZJKfL9kaF+nP/0e2UjBAtYTgMJyLxetzjg1lmMhM3r7aR6g 0oBUO79lnWUwnhsxafWmTVlr+6p1wgwSsHAPsdkn/zNQVz1EZc/o5SbmzR2js+6B szLbq7Vid6ap0pshU2NcuEvKmCijMW0cRNeJoaaIBkdMh3SD/FKS/gwSjWqhIefJ 4hthXXu29X7QZk/e8NTbuJY+tiGvKSjmLEZFxUmPXlG6DbRm2HV8FhPNStZhUFN4 MkB+ADvEc3noCxyB3w2y+ThoK41o8caDzWJGWjJ9zf+GGtusWNcYHA== =JS38 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:40:45 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls) (fwd) Message-ID: <199701220340.TAA17362@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 17:29:05 -0800 > From: Steve Schear > Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls) > > followed up, but it seems entirely reasonable a practicle. In fact I'm > surprised that Hollywood hasn't latched onto this in order to dub film > stars to different languages w/o loosing their recognizable voice > characteristics. In this regards you people (en toto) need to do a little more real world research in this area. Voice recognition is and has been easy to do for decades. As to what Hollywood is doing, not only are they doing voice masking but your local radio station does it on a regular basis [1] for a few $1,000's in hardware and software. [1] Video Toaster User Dec. 1996 Toaster Talk - "Learning from radio" pp. 6 Jim Choate CyberTects ravage@ssz.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:55:40 -0800 (PST) To: Alec MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Alec wrote: > :Jane Jefferson wrote: > :> The heart and soul of the problem is that "sin", "freedom", "good", > :> and "evil" are abstract concepts which fluctuate from individual to > :> individual. > Not only from individual to individual. > Please consider the changes in the concepts of "sin", "freedom", "good", > and "evil" which occur over time even within the same individual; to > wit the on and off again love affair with our nation's past "enemies; > individual responses to drug use especially alcohol; premarital sex > (ok for me but not my daughter). > This constant flux within both society and individual makes creation > and implementation of rules extremely difficult and hazardous. The idea that "sin" and "evil" are abstract and somewhat arbitrary is merely a human (and therefore faulty) perception. If God can be perfect by definition (for sake of argument), then "sin" is taking one's attention from God's intent and turning to man's intent, which is inherently selfish. "Evil" is the selfish thing you do, when you should do the unselfish thing. These are not that difficult to understand, but are easily twisted by selfish minds. A gentleman wrote to Southern Partisan magazine a few years ago and said "Real freedom is not the license to do whatever you want, but rather the liberty to do what you ought to do". From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:55:35 -0800 (PST) To: Blanc Weber Subject: Re: The Purpose of the List Message-ID: <199701220555.VAA18989@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Blanc Weber wrote: > If the cpunk list discusses only crypto, then mathematician-programmers > will do their cold work in an isolation which eliminates the need to > think about the consequences of their actions. > So discussions on philosophy, society, etc., are important, to remind > everyone of the context within which this subject operates. > However, if "community feeling" is the only thing created on the list, > and crypto is no longer the focal topic, then what is to be > accomplished: the list will become just a playing ground for wayward > KOTM PhDs who are not welcome in most other cyberspaces. > So the question of "how will this impact society", must maintain > association with "but how does this relate to crypto?". (unless the > list has changed its stripes, evolving into something completely > different, which many will agree it has). It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same: Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the only cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings". From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Michael Paul Johnson Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:55:30 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: North American crypto site -- correction Message-ID: <199701220555.VAA18981@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Correction: the "front door" to the North American crypto site is http://www.sni.net/~mpj/usa/getcrypt.htm (the /usa was missing in in an earlier post) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Personal Edition iQEVAgUBMuWW/W+Iqt/O4EnZAQHnSAgAmMNA1UcEsd8wTkLz50ayj16t8SCFnfLs y86ZwxUd0aD7PoyMwGXbr2KkY9E9/I+CQAf9P56DbxDSCWWPzZA0Tydy0Zb+yeH1 +hIoFYMJbWi4nj34B1OtiZeNW9QbWxqyD7CUu8gdaRncxM83tsFY9UAQd8+wyV3w IFyrT6MZj+WLNBh1IhzkKTSdJzNW1mool97hm2KHH/nVuSYtBiVixmeTXkyoB5NU NfesjceO9g0PrVl0jW7NE1kOCJteFI2AAEaAKVYLVYvgvEdGSUkO0DnAXzVFCGKv Eb7/Wk0S7YVEFgVfamxsHvu/PoofVnvXX92UtXPhcHmbobqANA/yfg== =2ZhX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Jesus Christ is coming back with power and glory! Are you READY? mailto:mpj@csn.net Bible site-> http://www.sni.net/~mpj Is 40:31 BBS 303-772-1062 PGPprint=3E67A5800DFBD16A 6D52D3A91C074E41 From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Michael Paul Johnson Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 15:57:01 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: North American crypto site -- correction Message-ID: <199701232357.PAA00734@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Correction: the "front door" to the North American crypto site is http://www.sni.net/~mpj/usa/getcrypt.htm (the /usa was missing in in an earlier post) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Personal Edition iQEVAgUBMuWW/W+Iqt/O4EnZAQHnSAgAmMNA1UcEsd8wTkLz50ayj16t8SCFnfLs y86ZwxUd0aD7PoyMwGXbr2KkY9E9/I+CQAf9P56DbxDSCWWPzZA0Tydy0Zb+yeH1 +hIoFYMJbWi4nj34B1OtiZeNW9QbWxqyD7CUu8gdaRncxM83tsFY9UAQd8+wyV3w IFyrT6MZj+WLNBh1IhzkKTSdJzNW1mool97hm2KHH/nVuSYtBiVixmeTXkyoB5NU NfesjceO9g0PrVl0jW7NE1kOCJteFI2AAEaAKVYLVYvgvEdGSUkO0DnAXzVFCGKv Eb7/Wk0S7YVEFgVfamxsHvu/PoofVnvXX92UtXPhcHmbobqANA/yfg== =2ZhX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Jesus Christ is coming back with power and glory! Are you READY? mailto:mpj@csn.net Bible site-> http://www.sni.net/~mpj Is 40:31 BBS 303-772-1062 PGPprint=3E67A5800DFBD16A 6D52D3A91C074E41 From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Lucky Green Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:55:27 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Encrypting ZIP drives? Message-ID: <199701220555.VAA18973@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives. Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks, -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime. http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Nurdane Oksas Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:40:42 -0800 (PST) To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Subject: Re: GSM technology Message-ID: <199701220340.TAA17356@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > Nurdane Oksas writes: > > > On Tue, 21 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > Nurdane Oksas writes: > > > > > > > ADSL will be the best for movies... i can't wait . > > > > > > What kind of movies? > > > > You're too young to watch these..:) > > I'm older than you... Do you mean I'm too old to watch these? Yes physically you are older and wiser; And watching 'wild orchid' would be detrimental to your health. thinking of you, oksas! From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Nurdane Oksas Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:55:31 -0800 (PST) To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing] Message-ID: <199701220355.TAA17584@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Sun, 19 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > Nurdane Oksas writes: > > > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > Nurdane Oksas writes: > > > > > > > On Sat, 18 Jan 1997, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > > > > > > > Nurdane Oksas writes: > > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > > > > > > snow writes: > > > > > > > > > > I say we make people fly naked and ship their stuff via UPS ; > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>shudder<< > > > > > > > > > No!. A clear case of the cure being worse than the disease. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why. it might be fun - those long flight can be so boring with cl > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This one I really don't understand. Cypherpunks lobbied heavily fo > > > > > > > the Final Solution to Spamming and flaming, now along comes the per > > > > > > > solution to the airport security problem, and nobody's gonna go for > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Guess those old, out-of-shape guys don't want anybody laughing at t > > > > > > > Besides, they can put all the clothes in the same plane's baggage > > > > > > > compartment. And planes have those little blankets and pillows, > > > > > > > so what's the problem? > > > > > > > > > > > > Cold temps... > > > > > > > > > > What can naked people do to keep warm??? > > > > > > > > steal blankets from nearby passenger.. > > > > > > I once saw a movie where they had a heroin (or cocaine?) processing lab > > > and everybody was supposed to work naked so it would be hard to steal > > > some of the product. Of course in the movie all the employees were good- > > > looking women (Oksas would have been the big star!). > > > > Thank you for the complement; You've only seen me with clothes :) > > I can tell. > > > Would you like to share my blanket? > > Sure! A true gentleman (like me) is always ready, willing, and able to share > a security blanket with a lady. I am very embarassed... > > "Something nekkid's in the air!" > i think i am in trouble ;) > --- > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM > Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps > From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: John Young Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:10:44 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Seismic Crypto Message-ID: <199701220410.UAA17798@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain In a NYT report today on a "mysterious" blast in the Australian outback in 1993, there's mention of "seismic weapons" and research on them by Nicholas Tesla in the 1930s. Would any of our weapons connoisseurs have more info on what these are and how they were supposed to work? Electrical, chemical, nuclear? That Aussie blast has still not been identified except that it was something in the nuclear weapon, earthquake or meteorite range. The Arum sect, which owned 500,000 acres in the viciniity, was a suspect for a while but later cleared, although it was looking into seismic weapons. Will send the story: WHA_the Or read it at www.nytimes.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 21:55:47 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Nikola Tesla Message-ID: <199701220555.VAA19005@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 22:39:48 -0500 > From: John Young > Subject: Seismic Crypto > > In a NYT report today on a "mysterious" blast in the > Australian outback in 1993, there's mention of "seismic > weapons" and research on them by Nicholas Tesla > in the 1930s. First, it's Nikola Tesla. At least do the man the honor of getting his name correct (he is a personal hero of mine), I mean he ONLY invented the AC power system we use today, the first commercial power generation plant at Niagra Falls in the world, the first torpedo which he sold to the Russians because the USN was too stupid to buy it, radio, remote control via radio, wireless power transmission, etc... Second, there is a LOT of hogwash attributed to Nikola which he in actuality never worked on (ie death rays, flying saucers to the interior of the Earth, etc.). If you would like to learn more about him then check out "The Writings and Inventions of Nikola Tesla", it was proofed by him prior to its publication. You will also find in most bookstores a copy of all his American patents in "The Collected Patents of Nikola Tesla". I apologize for not providing ISBN's but my copies are 30 miles away in my shop being used to build Tesla Coils. I would strongly suggest avoiding the Tesla Society as it is, in my opinion, populated by a bunch of UFO and conspiracy crazies (though a small percentage of their articles are useable). His work on 'artificial earthquakes' dealt with his studies on mechanical coupling between tuned oscillators. He was finaly 'asked' to leave because he would get 4-5 square block areas of New York rocking, much to the chagrin of the residents, by coupling pile-driver like oscillators to the building he lived in. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage@ssz.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Bill Stewart Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:12:25 -0800 (PST) To: Amanda Walker Subject: Re: Wow. Message-ID: <199701221212.EAA23249@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 12:58 AM 1/19/97 -0500, Amanda Walker wrote: >I'm off to look for a mailing list where people are ACTUALLY DISCUSSING >CRYPTOGRAPHY AND IMPLEMENTING CRYPTOSYSTEMS. This list may still be >called "cypherpunks", but it doesn't have much cypherpunk left in it, as >far as I can tell. To some extent it's bad timing - there's been enough flaming on the list (including a few bad apples really harassing it) that John Gilmore decided it was time to start moderating the list, and that's led to a bunch of flames about moderation. But it was getting pretty bad. About a year ago the coderpunks@toad.com list got started; it's just for discussing code and related issues, not politics. It's moderated by the "Please be nice, and we'll kick you off for abuse" method, and it's worked out fine, though it's usually quiet. Also, a month or two ago, Perry Metzger started cryptography@c2.net , which is a bit more general but not for flaming. Perry moderates it. Both use -request to find the listbot. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Bill Stewart Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:12:26 -0800 (PST) To: "John C. Randolph" Subject: Re: Donna Rice, etc. Message-ID: <199701221212.EAA23251@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >Yes, it's the very same Bimbo who scuttled Gary Hart's campaign, I think you have to give Gary all the credit for that; the "Hey, I'm not doing anything wrong and you could follow me around 24 hours a day and not find anything" bit convinced me that Hart was a major flake, and doing it when the only credible Democrat to take over after him was Walter F@#&! Mondale was just unconscionable. If he'd said something like "Get Off My Ass" or "Reagan's not on his first wife, so what's your point" or "my marriage is off limits" or whatever I'd have had some respect, and for a Democrat he hadn't seemed to be that bad. > but when she tries to tell me what I should or shouldn't be able to > see, my reply *must* be: > Fuck you, you hypocritical, ignorant, little slut. >I am also going to take issue with her trysting with a married man. >I wish Hart's wife had verbally beaten the living shit out of her. She's a _former_ bimbo, who has ostensibly rehabilitated herself. Not that that puts her in a position to throw stones at other people.. >Obligatory Crypto Policy reference: Why couldn't she have scuttled >Feurher Clinton's career, instead? Not enough room to fool around on a bass-fishing boat? # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Bill Stewart Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:10:43 -0800 (PST) To: Nurdane Oksas Subject: ADSL (Was: GSM technology Message-ID: <199701221210.EAA23233@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote: > Does anyone use ADSL lines? or are they still very expensive? They're not widely available yet; I don't know if any of the (US) phone companies offer it as more than trials. One limitation is that the technology works over copper wire, so it has to be offered at your local telco wire center. Of course, your local telco has to have something useful to do with the bits once the user sends them to the telco, and has to have some useful bits to send the user. This means they've got to haggle about standards for 5 more years (or just do the right thing and deploy IP, with some respectable bandwidth to the outside world) (or deploy ATM to get a layer 2 connection to something outside.) Don't know if the telcos have a clue about pricing, either. It's obviously got to be more than cost, but they'll probably thrash around a lot the way they did with IP.... # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Lucky Green Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:25:33 -0800 (PST) To: "David E. Smith" Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP drives? Message-ID: <199701221225.EAA23441@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 12:21 AM 1/22/97 -0600, David E. Smith wrote: >At 09:35 PM 1/21/97 -0800, you wrote: >>I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives. >>Any advice would be appreciated. > >IBM or Mac? Parallel on Win95. Thanks, -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime. http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:10:45 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) Message-ID: <199701221210.EAA23236@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:50:15 -0500 > From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" > Subject: Fighting the cybercensor. > > Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think > this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any particular view on them. If Billy-Bob wants to shoot himself in the foot, let him. Might be purty funny to watch. > The Web was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice > between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of > speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal. Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share data in a easily digestible format. The web and technology in general have no more ethics or morality intrinsicly in them than a 5/8" open end wrench. Blocking and filtering are an expression of human choice and the implimentation thereof. You don't like it, don't live there and don't try to call there. You or I have no more right to be on a Chinese or Singapore Internet than they have in coming into yours or my home without an invitation. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage@ssz.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:25:37 -0800 (PST) To: Bill Campbell Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment" Message-ID: <199701221225.EAA23457@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Bill Campbell wrote: > Sean Roach wrote: > > At 02:22 AM 1/21/97 -0800, Toto wrote: > > >Bill Campbell wrote: > > I believe he is referring to silencing the list, not Vulis. As long as the > > members of this list are argueing over semantics, the government has one > > less challenger in the fight over our rights. > > Remember, one of the oldest tactics of war is to turn the enemy against itself. > I fear that many have now left the list, since it now seems to resemble, > in many ways, a list consisting of high school age "wannabes" who think > it's really cool to attack people just because they can. The downward > spiral into inconsequential meaningless postings began with posts > containing the word "fart". So cool, dudes. The list only suffers when you guys stop posting crypto/political info. For example, if tomorrow there are 100 new posts, and 10 of them are crypto/political relevant, and 10 more are like this one (I'm ignoring the other 80 for this example), then the list is only 10% relevant. Take away these 10, and it's 11.1%, but 10 less posts to read. Turn these 10 into something relevant, and voila(!), the list is now 20% relevant. You see, it's up to you, Bill. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "David E. Smith" Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:12:25 -0800 (PST) To: Lucky Green Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP drives? Message-ID: <199701221212.EAA23248@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 09:35 PM 1/21/97 -0800, you wrote: >I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives. >Any advice would be appreciated. IBM or Mac? Methinks (and I haven't tried it, but I think I will soon) that at least on the IBM side, the usual realm of existing software (SecureDrive/SecureDevice are the first things that come to mind) ought to work. After the Iomega ZIP drivers are in place, the Zip drive is 'just another drive' as far as most applications can see. dave From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Bill Campbell Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:14:06 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering "experiment" Message-ID: <199701221214.EAA23262@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sean Roach wrote: > At 02:22 AM 1/21/97 -0800, Toto wrote: > >Bill Campbell wrote: > > > >> I feel we at a *critical* crossroads in this debate, and one of the > >> more important voices has *very* effectively been silenced. > > > > Dr. Vulis? There was an 'attempt' to silence him, but it hasn't > >worked, to date. > > > I believe he is referring to silencing the list, not Vulis. As long as the > members of this list are argueing over semantics, the government has one > less challenger in the fight over our rights. > Remember, one of the oldest tactics of war is to turn the enemy against itself. I thought my meaning was obvious, but thanks for pointing it out to those who didn't get it. When I first began reading this list, I realized that a lot of important information was being put out; and it certainly raised my awareness of issues that I had not previously thought about. I believe that many other subscribers to the list also were exposed to many of these concepts, and that many subscribers to the list were people who could make a difference. I fear that many have now left the list, since it now seems to resemble, in many ways, a list consisting of high school age "wannabes" who think it's really cool to attack people just because they can. The downward spiral into inconsequential meaningless postings began with posts containing the word "fart". So cool, dudes. =Bill= From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:25:44 -0800 (PST) To: Jim Choate Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) Message-ID: <199701221225.EAA23463@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Jim Choate wrote: > 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to > stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run > our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any > particular view on them. And Germany was Hitler and the Nazi Party's own country. Do you really want Clinton and GingWretch having a say in how we run our web? (I don't). It may be 'their' country ('their' being the government), but it is 'their' world ('their' being the people). There was a reason that the Western powers didn't return East Germans who broke the laws of their country by climbing over the wall and running for freedom. Making information available does not 'force' a view on anyone. > > The Web was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice > > between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of > > speech. I want a couple of whatever this guy is on. > Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share > data in a easily digestible format. No. The internet was conceived so that the DOD could monitor the communications of physicists and researchers who thought it was awfully nice of the government to provide this wonderful method of sharing data and information. Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Richard L. Field" Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:25:42 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: "Technical data" exemptions in new crypto regs Message-ID: <199701221225.EAA23462@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain That would be Samuel Slater, who built his mill in Pawtucket, Rhode Island (still there, on Roosevelt Avenue) in 1793. He reproduced his former boss's factory from memory in order to collect on a bounty offered in the US on the export-restricted patent. - Richard Field At 06:39 PM 1/21/97 -0500, Sean Roach wrote: >This has often reminded me of something that occurred around 1776. >I can't remember if it was before or after. >Remember how the colonies got sophisticated spinning gear? >I believe it was spinning gear. >Great Britain had a ban on the export of functional models, diagrams or >manufacturing instructions to one particular class of equipment. This was >so that they could maintain the monopoly on cheaply made cloth, holding the >outlying colonies in line by maintaining a dependancy. >One man memorized the structure of one of these machines and then came to >the American shores, where he reproduced it workably. > >I can't remember the name of the man or the machine, just that it was used >in the manufacture of cloth, the "spinning jenny" i think. Nor can I >remember the date. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Steve Schear Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 06:10:34 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: FBI Gets 500 Mil to Tap Your Communications Message-ID: <199701221410.GAA24357@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >||| FBI moderates its communications-surveillance request ||| > >TBTF for 5/4/95 [6] > >In 1995 the FBI asked for and was granted $500 million to augment the >government's ability to tap communications (of this total $100M has >been released to the FBI so far). Privacy advocates expressed outrage >at the FBI's stated capacity goal: to be able to listen in on 1% of >installed telephone lines at any time. This translates to about 1.6 >million taps simultaneous of all kinds: pen registers, trap-and-trace, >and wiretaps. The FBI withdrew its initial proposal under fire and on >1/14 submitted a revised proposal -- press release at [7], analysis >at [8]. Unlike the earlier draft, this essay lays out its assumptions >and straightforwardly projects needed capacity growth. The result is >a capacity figure of fewer than 60,000 intercepts, less that 4% of >the original request. This level of capability would allow the FBI >simultaneously to monitor more than 500 phone lines in an area with >the population of Manhatta still an enormous increase on historical >numbers of intercepts. > >[6] >[7] >[8] > At least as important was their request to legally tap any telephone line for 48 hours w/o a warrant. What ever happended to that? -- Steve From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Steve Schear Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 06:40:27 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: ADSL (Was: GSM technology Message-ID: <199701221440.GAA24691@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >At 09:43 AM 1/20/97 -0500, Nurdane Oksas wrote: >> Does anyone use ADSL lines? or are they still very expensive? > >They're not widely available yet; I don't know if any of the (US) >phone companies offer it as more than trials. One limitation is that >the technology works over copper wire, so it has to be offered at >your local telco wire center. Of course, your local telco has to >have something useful to do with the bits once the user sends >them to the telco, and has to have some useful bits to send the user. >This means they've got to haggle about standards for 5 more years >(or just do the right thing and deploy IP, with some respectable >bandwidth to the outside world) (or deploy ATM to get a layer 2 >connection to something outside.) That was the intent of at least one sectio of the recently enacted Telecom Reform Act, but now the Baby Bells are trying to block local access provisions in the SC which would allow, for example, ISP to offer ISDN/ADSL/HDSL via their own CO equipment (bypassing the telco switches). > >Don't know if the telcos have a clue about pricing, either. >It's obviously got to be more than cost, but they'll probably >thrash around a lot the way they did with IP.... > ># Thanks; Bill ># Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com ># You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp ># (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Sean Roach Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:27:37 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. Message-ID: <199701221627.IAA25513@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 01:50 PM 1/21/97 -0500, Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote: >Mission: > >Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think >this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? The Web >was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice >between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of >speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal. > > >Requirements: > >A scheme which makes blocking of individual IP addresses >impractical. > > ... >2c) Some crypto hack I can't quite work out (hence the post to >cypher punks). I can phrase the challenge more compactly though. >We have two sets of opposed groups A and M. The A group wish to >establish a continued conversation with groups B and C. M is >willing to permit communication with group B but not C. Whenever >M discovers that a member of group B is willing to act on behalf >of group C, M transfers that member to the C group. > >The problem is to keep A's channels of communication open despite >the efforts of M for very large group sizes. > ... > >Comments? If people are willing to work on this I can provide >some facilities and act as a media contact. > I believe that I heard a suggestion here once involving accepting Vulis's posts, all of them, but only distributing them to Vulis. I have also heard, on a web-based bulliten board (please excuse the spelling), about setting up a proxy for the CDA supporters routing all of thier requests to a VAX loaded with only "clean" stuff, either by engineering it for them, or routing all of thier communications to an existing "clean" site. The idea here is, if the government doesn't know what sites to block, i.e. thier in office checks of said site checked out but everyone gets a different look, they can't block them. To begin blocking proxies, they would have to get spies in the population to tell them where the "trash" is, or pay a bounty for every such site, which they would then have to figure out how to verify. This would require spies on our part as well. Ones to say that so-and-so citizen has been informing to the government so that the operators could put that citizen on the government list, the list of people to give the filtered "wholesome" feed to. Such an effort would require a great amount of effort and would probably be best suited to the EFF or other existing freedom protection organization. The setup would be similair to a "pirate broadcast" in the views of the government and would thus be best operated from safe shores. The spy ring would be simple. A e-mail address or other semi-secure drop-off point would be maintained for snitches. This address would be well advertised on the board, a SINGLE system. When a tattler is fingered by a fellow tattler, the government side tattler is baited with highly inflammatory, but mostly worthless, articles about the government. If the site is blocked, the informer is blocked. There are several kinks to work out. The single site would be easier to maintain, having "disposible" repeater sites which the government can see to block. Thus the main site would never be seen unshielded, though if it was, it wouldn't mean anything. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Sean Roach Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 10:11:22 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Seismic Crypto Message-ID: <199701221811.KAA26718@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 10:39 PM 1/21/97 -0500, John Young wrote: >In a NYT report today on a "mysterious" blast in the >Australian outback in 1993, there's mention of "seismic >weapons" and research on them by Nicholas Tesla >in the 1930s. > >Would any of our weapons connoisseurs have more >info on what these are and how they were supposed to >work? Electrical, chemical, nuclear? ... Pick up a copy of the Johnson Smith Catalog, lots of fun to read and they sell t-shirts with greys on them. The catalog sells several "contriversial" books and tapes, including psycic healing techniques, astral projection, the infamous alien autopsy tape, and several books about and works by Tesla, including one specifically about the device that you are talking about. On another thread, pick up the Cheek3 Scanner modification guide while your at it, I hear that it is a good resource. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: John Young Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 07:55:49 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: EZP_ikn Message-ID: <199701221555.HAA25232@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain 01-21-97: "Method and apparatus for end-to-end encryption of a data packet in a computer network (Assignee -- Digital Equipment Corporation)" Inventor(s): Hawe, William R., Lampson, Butler W., Gupta, Amar "Mykotronx Upgrades US Army Satellite Comms" Mykotronx will develop and manufacture the refurbished Batson encryption subsystem, called the RBatson. Also known as KIG-34, the system will provide critical command and control protection for the US Defense Satellite Communication System (DSCS), including encryption, authentication, and anti-jamming capabilities. ----- EZP_ikn From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 07:55:52 -0800 (PST) To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com> Subject: RE: ADSL (Was: GSM technology Message-ID: <199701221555.HAA25239@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Bill Stewart wrote re: ADSL lines> They're not widely available yet; I don't know if any of the (US) phone companies offer it as more than trials. One limitation is that the technology works over copper wire, so it has to be offered at your local telco wire center. A previous poster mentioned that because of the copper wire restriction, that they may deploy first in older centers. This would appear to be the case, since a Canadian telco (Sasktel) is offering ADSL in Saskatoon for 60$/month with unlimited internet access. Saskatoon falls into this category - in my opinion. I was only is SK briefly over New Years, but perhaps Toto can fill in details. James From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Mike McNally Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:55:55 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: EZP_ikn Message-ID: <199701221655.IAA25905@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain John Young wrote: > > 01-21-97: > > "Method and apparatus ... > > Inventor(s): Hawe, William R., Lampson, Butler W., Gupta, Amar I thought Lampson worked for Microsoft? -- ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin mailto:m5@tivoli.com mailto:m101@io.com http://www.io.com/~m101 ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:27:25 -0800 (PST) To: mech@eff.org Subject: David Kahn advocates GAK Message-ID: <199701221627.IAA25505@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain In today's (22 Jan 97) Long Island, NY Newsday Viewpoints, p. A31: "Let Feds Overheard Cellular-Phone Talk" by David Kahn (an editor at Newsday and author of "The Codebreakers") He intones the usual horseman: "...such criminals as terrorists, drug- runners, kidnappers and child-pornographers are increasingly using encryption to conceal their plans and activities, the FBI says." He also mis-states opponenents of GAK positions, claimingthe criticism is that "key escrow [at least he doesn't call it key recovery] won't work all the time", ignoring anti-GAK mentions of COINTELPRO, J.Edgar Stalin^H^H^H^H^H^HHoover, etc. etc. And the usual nonsense about "every day that criminal messages can be heard is a gain" w/out noting that anyone smart enough to use crypto now will not use it if GAK is fully implemented. Newsday is part of the LA Times Syndicate, so member papers may also have the same viewpoint appearing in their pages within the next couple of days. Their website is http://www.newsday.com ... I don't know if the viewpoint is on-line there. Rob ----- "The word to kill ain't dirty | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com) I used it in the last line | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/ but use a short word for lovin' | Se habla PGP: Reply with the subject and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Robert Hettinga Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:56:52 -0800 (PST) To: Bill Stewart Subject: Re: Donna Rice, etc. Message-ID: <199701221656.IAA25918@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 1:50 am -0500 1/22/97, Bill Stewart wrote: >>Yes, it's the very same Bimbo who scuttled Gary Hart's campaign, >I think you have to give Gary all the credit for that; >the "Hey, I'm not doing anything wrong and you could follow me >around 24 hours a day and not find anything" bit convinced me that >Hart was a major flake A pal of mine from Mizzou was the photographer who took the Donna/Gary lap-sit photo. He got the Pulitzer prize. Whole episode says more about American "journalism" than anything else, and *I'm* a congenital Republican. ObGeodesicMarkets: It was a joke about Donna Rice that got me thinking about the speed of information propagation in the capital markets. ("What did Donna Rice say when the reporters caught her leaving Gary Hart's house? She said she was taking a poll. ) The joke appeared on the Morgan Stanley equity trading desk no more than 15 minutes after the story hit the Reuter's newswire. In that time, the joke was thought up, somewhere in the world, and disseminated all over, ending up in the midwestern hinterlands of Chicago, by way of London. Since trading desks talk to each other with direct lines, the network formed by them is a geodesic one, even though people are the "switches". Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/ FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/ "If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97" From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: John Young Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:55:50 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: David Kahn advocates GAK Message-ID: <199701221655.IAA25895@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Yep, thanks for the pointer, Rob. Kahn's online at: http://www.newsday.com/mainnews/rnmi0522.htm Anybody unable to access, send us a note: KAH_nak From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Robert Hettinga Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 11:27:23 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Aussie Ecash at Advance Bank Message-ID: <199701221927.LAA27547@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain --- begin forwarded text Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com Reply-To: Ian Grigg MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: Bulk Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:42:59 +0100 From: Ian Grigg To: Multiple recipients of Subject: Aussie Ecash at Advance Bank From: Edward Breese x1364 To: ecash-merchant Subject: ecash - latest news Date: Tue, 21 Jan 97 17:44:00 EST Message-Id: <32E47395@central.advance.com.au> Encoding: 41 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: ecash-merchant-request@whitetail.advance.com.au Resent-Message-Id: Resent-From: ecash-merchant@whitetail.advance.com.au X-Unsub: To leave, send text 'LEAVE' to Dear ecash enthusiast, A short note to let you know that the ecash System Integrators kit was posted on the Internet last week. You can find it at: www.advance.com.au/advance/ecash/sysint.htm We are currently testing the ecash system internally here at Advance Bank. We hope to make the merchant software available for free download in the next 2-3 weeks - you will then be able to start building and testing your ecash enabled web sites. There will also be supporting documentation, such as: - the ecash merchant information kit - how to build an ecash shop - ecash usage guidelines etc Thank you again for your interest. We'll let you know as soon as the software is available for download. Advance Bank Subscription Information ======================== To subscribe to the ecash mailing list by e-mail: Send an email message to ecash-merchant-request@advance.com.au and in the BODY of the message type: SUBSCRIBE If you'd like to remove yourself from the ecash mailing list: Send an email message to ecash-merchant-request@advance.com.au and in the body of the message type: UNSUBSCRIBE --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/ FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://offshore.com.ai/fc97/ "If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97" From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "James A. Tunnicliffe" Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:26:18 -0800 (PST) To: "'WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com> Subject: RE: David Kahn advocates GAK Message-ID: <199701230026.QAA01807@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl' writes: > In today's (22 Jan 97) Long Island, NY Newsday Viewpoints, p. A31: > "Let Feds Overheard Cellular-Phone Talk" > by David Kahn (an editor at Newsday and author of "The Codebreakers") > He intones the usual horseman: "...such criminals as terrorists, drug- > runners, kidnappers and child-pornographers are increasingly using > encryption to conceal their plans and activities, the FBI says." Lions and tigers and bears, oh MY! > He also mis-states opponenents of GAK positions, claimingthe > criticism is that "key escrow [at least he doesn't call it key > recovery] won't work all the time", ignoring anti-GAK mentions of > COINTELPRO, J.Edgar Stalin^H^H^H^H^H^HHoover, etc. etc. Actually, I thought he summed up the anti-GAK positions reasonably well, though he didn't elaborate on them. The "it may not work all the time" statement was actually an admission of the pro-GAK side. > And the usual nonsense about "every day that criminal messages can be > heard is a gain" w/out noting that anyone smart enough to use crypto > now will not use it if GAK is fully implemented. I found the logic questionable, but more disturbing was the fundamental position that "loss of privacy [...] is a price that must be paid to gain security". Benjamin Franklin's statement about security and freedom comes strongly to mind when I hear nonsense like this. He then cites the (in "our" view, useless and intrusive) hassles that airline passengers must endure in the name of "security" as justification for more of the same! Talk about a slippery slope! > Newsday is part of the LA Times Syndicate, so member papers may also > have the same viewpoint appearing in their pages within the next > couple of days. > Their website is http://www.newsday.com ... I don't know if the > viewpoint is on-line there. It is, at http://www.newsday.com/mainnews/rnmi0522.htm Pretty disappointing stuff, but then Mr. Kahn IS affiliated with the NSA these days, isn't he? Tunny ====================================================================== James A. Tunnicliffe | WWWeb: http://www.inference.com/~tunny Inference Corporation | PGP Fingerprint: CA 23 E2 F3 AC 2D 0C 77 tunny@Inference.com | 36 07 D9 33 3D 32 53 9C ====================================================================== -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.0 Business Edition Comment: which I won in the PGP raffle at Cypherpunks 12/96... iQEVAgUBMuZ1UvAmQsmyRPddAQFO/gf+Ikw8GScPo/+lr00lKvTnF7dZdEYhE8GC bt7wu96a/4mE81261EwxqA8voI/y5T3RsUfZLeYsGX+wkuPyqK1QImO3A7O8PNnb AvFitSaNsrMqyKTa7mI63TrvoBDCqtN3vYdDeSl6ZPHJmhHO5MF6xVoA56yeF5xf h0ooejTgeYMOGMhf2faRCKU31AdFB+pjozxMo83X2ZrCzga8wiHeqlEEKWQnu1cJ 3jc+TVZnEI95idbQqeHvxh/BBRdprrPxBfncCb8wnXuLHxPmrsWGqfvMDpS06qhl ZWEFChYLDGwsMokvcY+ZOZ6x4jlwssFGDXpflcdjFnPBp3yJKjU7fA== =/siB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "E. Allen Smith" Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 11:12:34 -0800 (PST) To: rwright@adnetsol.com Subject: Re: FBI Gets 500 Mil to Tap Your Communications Message-ID: <199701221912.LAA27317@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain From: IN%"rwright@adnetsol.com" "Ross Wright" 22-JAN-1997 02:52:34.76 >at [8]. Unlike the earlier draft, this essay lays out its assumptions >and straightforwardly projects needed capacity growth. The result is >a capacity figure of fewer than 60,000 intercepts, less that 4% of >the original request. This level of capability would allow the FBI >simultaneously to monitor more than 500 phone lines in an area with >the population of Manhatta still an enormous increase on historical >numbers of intercepts. [...] >[8] Something that the CDT didn't point out was that basing wiretap "requirements" on past growth makes two assumptions, both of them invalid: A. Past wiretaps (& other probes, such as pen registers & tap-and-trace) were all entirely justified; the growth in their use does not reflect either use of them in situations they are not required for or use of them in situations in which government has essentially failed and more resources poured into the alleged "problems" (e.g., drug trafficing, money laundering, and pornography) will do less than no good whatsoever. B. The number of lines will go up at the same rate as the estimated growth in wiretaps. In regards to this latter one, if they go up at a greater rate, then the FBI will request expanded capacity; if they go up at a lower rate, they will assuredly not request a decrease, and will thus ultimately have the capablility to wiretap _all_ lines. >Fuck the FBI. With a backhoe. -Allen From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: snow Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:26:13 -0800 (PST) To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" Subject: Re: Newt's phone calls Message-ID: <199701230026.QAA01806@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Mr. Hallam-baker said: > Adam Back wrote in article <5bp18k$1cc@life.ai.mit.edu>... > > > GSM encrypts only the links to the station - the traffic goes in the > > clear through the station. Plus A5 (crypto algorithm used in GSM) is > > weak, 40 bits of effective key space. > > > > It could be worse to have poor crypto, than no crypto, > > I disagree for two reasons, first there is a big difference between having > poor locks and no locks. Most locks can be picked by an expert, they are > effective against many theifs however. > > Second if everyone in the world was using 40 bit email encryption it > would prevent most of the "promiscuous" interception of communications. Third (as Mr. Vulis observed) the jump from using poor crypto to using good crypto is a lot shorter than not using crypto to using good crypto. Once people get it in there heads that crypto is good to use, then it is easier to convince them to use "unbreakable" crypto than to convince non-crypto-users. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: snow Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:25:03 -0800 (PST) To: Dale Thorn Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment Message-ID: <199701222125.NAA28810@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sprach The Thorn: > Jane Jefferson wrote: > Jane is showing signs of independent thought. Tsk tsk. > > fail, countries would instantly be absorbed by other countries, many > > relationships based on love and trust would be destroyed. > > And during that time, the deadliest person alive - the toughest and > > the meanest, and the most effective in the face of all the chaos, would > > not be the person who was capable of preserving their privacy. Rather, > > it would be the one who was capable of surviving in it's complete absence. > BTW, the suicide rate would not go ballistic, since the suicide rate No, but I bet the murder rate would. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jeremiah A Blatz Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:29:46 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. Message-ID: <199701222129.NAA28965@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" writes: > Mission: > > Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think > this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? The Web > was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice > between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of > speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal. > > > Requirements: > > A scheme which makes blocking of individual IP addresses > impractical. > Considerations: > [i.e. areas needing brainstorming] > > 1) Copyright. Clearly copyright holders such as CNN etc would > need to be involved. Although proxies have long been a part of > the Web and the scheme does not threaten their interests it would > be as well to get them on board at an early stage. I believe that the new copyright regs explicitly allow web surfing. Copyright should not be an issue, I think. IANAL. > 2) How can one prevent the proxies themselves being blocked? Some > ideas that come to mind: > > 2a) Only issue new sites gradually so that blocking requires > continuous updates. > > 2b) Use DHCP to change network addresses regularly. > > 2c) Some crypto hack I can't quite work out (hence the post to > cypher punks). I can phrase the challenge more compactly though. > We have two sets of opposed groups A and M. The A group wish to > establish a continued conversation with groups B and C. M is > willing to permit communication with group B but not C. Whenever > M discovers that a member of group B is willing to act on behalf > of group C, M transfers that member to the C group. > > The problem is to keep A's channels of communication open despite > the efforts of M for very large group sizes. > > I'm not sure if this is a pure crypto challenge or a game theory > problem. Secure connections from proxy to client would eliminate driftnet scanning. That's probably about all the crypto. One idea would to put /cgi-bin/redirect in all the distributions of apache, apache-SSL, etc. That way, anyone who cared at all about privacy or was clueless would have an anonymizer on their web server. People who really cared could run web spiders that looked for sites with the redirect, and have cgi-bins that returned a randomized list of 10 or so. They could periodically post the list to semi-relavent newsgroups. The idea here is to reduce the chance of a denial of service attack against the anonymizer pool. The points of attack that I can think of are: 1) Filter out out anonymized connections. Crypto helps solves this one. Of course, then the evil empire filters out crypto, but that's bad for business. 2) Make the list of anonymizers dissappear This is a bit easier for the bad guys. Stego could help solve the problem, especially if combined with crypto. (i.e stego the list, encrypted with a few key underground folks public keys, into a pic of the great wall of china or something. 3) Make it illegal to use anonymizers and enforec randomly. FUD. I dunno how to solve this one. Put anphetamines in the water supply? > Comments? If people are willing to work on this I can provide > some facilities and act as a media contact. Distribution wins. (BTW, look at www.anonymizer.com) Jer "standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQB1AwUBMuZwuMkz/YzIV3P5AQEb5gL/aOgddVJ91jtZUPrDcsnqdhOFpKLx1IAH UMZi+HkdB+ZUsRhLxCSy0enpqxikwyFVOMINSr3uLRtYSIcuPK2JFdSACI79yISk 7oZWxwTO5TDMYtbBRAAZv/d9VyCT/EVE =OIEP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Carl Ellison Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:27:57 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: David Kahn advocates GAK Message-ID: <199701230027.QAA01813@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- It might also be that David's year long sabatical at NSA's crypto museum which recently ended put him in touch with people who believe in GAK. I found it interesting that he noted the argument that each additional day of government access is a good thing. This is the kind of belief we know that NSA holds -- a.k.a. "not on my watch" -- but I haven't seen it publicly admitted before. - Carl -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMuZ35lQXJENzYr45AQEcfwQAqMftG0DXn1nr6faA6IHeAtqSXYanwnZb DiwqppU4nJqPtIvtFw8eOVVwyYCzIv046dFtwR2mk8HeL1v8I3R2sWm7waknFjlm TM84+vLamlVnBNPUAXRYOrFiEhPQm/iitR4GVrcga9mHJ+vrI38XQGzi0lxdg310 pWjq5Fxahag= =xhF7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Carl M. Ellison cme@acm.org http://www.clark.net/pub/cme | | PGP 2.6.2: 61 E2 DE 7F CB 9D 79 84 E9 C8 04 8B A6 32 21 A2 | +-Officer, officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a dirty song.--+ From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:26:12 -0800 (PST) To: Cypherpunks Subject: Manila says ID system not prelude to martial law (fwd) Message-ID: <199701230026.QAA01800@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Reuters sez: Message-ID: MANILA, Jan 15 (Reuter) - Philippine President Fidel Ramos on Wednesday dismissed as baseless fears that his order creating a national identification system was a prelude to martial law. ``That is a wild opinion without any basis in fact,'' Ramos told his weekly news conference after Cardinal Jaime Sin, the outspoken Archbishop of Manila, accused him of being authoritarian. {We're talking, therefore it's no threat..} {Sin said it's immoral} {Opposition said could be used to monitor political activities, that it was reminiscent of Marcos.} Officials have said a computerised ID system whereby cards issued to citizens by state pension funds would carry reference numbers assigned to them for life would make it easier for people to transact business with the government and minimise fraud. ``That's all there is to it ... (its) very simple,'' Ramos said. -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dave Banisar Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:56:11 -0800 (PST) To: dccp@eff.org Subject: Decision in Karn Case Message-ID: <199701230056.QAA02134@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain We just received this today. This is in part good news that the appeals court did not just affirm the lower court decision but on the other hand, it doesn't give much guidance to the court. A html version is up at: http://www.epic.org/crypto/export_controls/karn_decision_1_97.html Dave ----------------------------------------------------------- UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CIRCUIT No. 96-5121 Philip R. Karn, Jr. v. U.S. Department of State On Appeal from the United States District Court for the District of Columbia Before: Williams, Ginsburg, and Rogers, Circuit Judges January 21, 1997 JUDGMENT In light of the recent Executive Order transferring regulatory authority of non-military cryptographic computer source code to the Commerce Department, and the Commerce Department's promulgation of a new regulation under the authority of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, 50 U.S.C. secs. 1701 et seq., we remand this case to the district court to consider the reviewability of and, if appropriate, the merits of appellant's claim under the Administrative Procedure Act. Because "basic tenets of judicial restraint and separation of powers call upon [the court] first to consider alternative grounds for resolution" when the court is asked to answer a question involving the Constitution of the United States, Lamprecht v. FCC, 958 F.2d 382, 389-90 (D.C. Cir. 1992), we do not reach the constitutional issues raised by this appeal. The clerk is directed to withhold issuance of the mandate herein until seven days after disposition of any timely petition for rehearing. See D.C. Cir. Rule 41(a)(2). This instruction to the Clerk is without prejudice to the right of any party at any time to move for expedited issuance of the mandate for a good cause shown. Per Curiam FOR THE COURT: /s/ Mark J. Langer, Clerk ========================================================================= David Banisar (Banisar@epic.org) * 202-544-9240 (tel) Electronic Privacy Information Center * 202-547-5482 (fax) 666 Pennsylvania Ave, SE, Suite 301 * HTTP://www.epic.org Washington, DC 20003 PGP Key: http://www.epic.org/staff/banisar/key.html ========================================================================= From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: tank Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 10:11:24 -0800 (PST) To: tank@xs4all.nl Subject: wired news: Germany Gets Radikal About Extremists on Web Message-ID: <199701221811.KAA26724@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain T O P S T O R I E S Germany Gets Radikal About Extremists on Web Tuesday - Are the German government's tactics for barring extremist material on the Internet realistic? Germany Gets Radikal About Extremists on Web by Rebecca Vesely 5:03 pm PST 21 Jan 97 - The German government, never shy about expressing its disdain for left- and right-wing radicals inside its borders, has taken to combing the Internet for signs of extremist activity. But Germany's effort to stop the distribution of terrorist manuals and Nazi propaganda is like pointing a fire hose at a beehive - instead of quashing the bees, it only scatters them, and makes them more insistent. Last week, German authorities filed charges against a member of the communist Party of Democratic Socialism (PDS), Angela Marquardt, for linking to the banned left-wing magazine Radikal from her homepage, causing Net activists to anticipate another incident like that last September, when several German ISPs temporarily blocked Radikal's server, XS4All. In response, the magazine was mirrored on more than 50 Web sites around the world. "The decision to prosecute for linking to Radikal will probably bring yet another escalation of events, where this censored magazine will become all the more popular on the Net," said Felipe Rodriquez, managing director of XS4All, which is based in the Netherlands. "Censoring the Internet is usually very counterproductive, and an insurance that many people will mirror the information and start distributing it." XS4All, which describes itself as "networking for the masses," hosts some 4,600 homepages, and was recently in the news for posting several homepages for media banned in Serbia, such as Radio B92, that continue to offer via the Web live RealAudio feeds and frequent updates on the continued nationwide protests against the Serbian government. Banned in Germany 12 years ago, and published underground for the past decade, Radikal advocates the overthrow of the German government. German officials say the magazine's publishers provide terrorist information in their pages, including how to sabotage train lines. But the publishers argue that they have the right to publish material contrary to the German government. "We fundamentally reject the notion that the state has a monopoly on the legitimate use of force," the publishers wrote in an article titled "Who We Are" in 1995. "The existing social conditions can only be changed if left-radical groups and associations build up their abilities and structures so as to be able to counter some of these effects even today. This, of course, includes militant and armed intervention, but these would be empty gestures if there wasn't also some sort of linkage or means of conveying their message." While publishers continue to produce the magazine in print form outside of Germany, sympathizers have been posting it to a homepage on XS4All. "As an act of solidarity with them and with Radikal we decided to put it on the Internet and, of course, to frustrate this censorship attempt of the German authorities," the sympathizers wrote in an email to Wired News. They added that while they had no contact with the publishers of Radikal, they are currently being investigated by Germany's public prosecutor general and have no plans to "go on holiday in Germany." Although Radikal is not banned in the Netherlands, the German government says that linking to the magazine from inside Germany is "aiding a felony," spokesman Ruediger Reiff told Reuters. In December, Chancellor Helmut Kohl's Cabinet approved a bill banning the electronic distribution of forms of hate speech, terrorism, and indecent material. The new German law places responsibility on the loosely defined "suppliers," and in response, CompuServe considered moving its administrative operations to a neighboring country. PDS member Marquardt says her prosecution has less to do with Radikal, than an attempt to quiet German citizens who, like herself, are outspoken critics of the government. "This is hardly about bomb-building instructions or highly detailed descriptions of train lines and their weaknesses," Marquardt, who could not be reached for comment, wrote in a statement posted on her Web site. "The all-too-stubborn guardians of the state will quickly learn: The Net interprets censorship as a malfunction and circumvents it." In the meantime, XS4All has not received any official communication from the German Justice Department, nor from the Dutch Justice Department. "Our policy is that as a provider we are not in the position to judge whether this magazine is illegal in the Netherlands, therefore we do not interfere with the liberty of speech of our user," XS4All's Rodriquez said. Copyright =A9 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies= From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: tank Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:27:55 -0800 (PST) To: tank@xs4all.nl Subject: wired news: Germany Gets Radikal About Extremists on Web Message-ID: <199701231427.GAA15791@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain T O P S T O R I E S Germany Gets Radikal About Extremists on Web Tuesday - Are the German government's tactics for barring extremist material on the Internet realistic? Germany Gets Radikal About Extremists on Web by Rebecca Vesely 5:03 pm PST 21 Jan 97 - The German government, never shy about expressing its disdain for left- and right-wing radicals inside its borders, has taken to combing the Internet for signs of extremist activity. But Germany's effort to stop the distribution of terrorist manuals and Nazi propaganda is like pointing a fire hose at a beehive - instead of quashing the bees, it only scatters them, and makes them more insistent. Last week, German authorities filed charges against a member of the communist Party of Democratic Socialism (PDS), Angela Marquardt, for linking to the banned left-wing magazine Radikal from her homepage, causing Net activists to anticipate another incident like that last September, when several German ISPs temporarily blocked Radikal's server, XS4All. In response, the magazine was mirrored on more than 50 Web sites around the world. "The decision to prosecute for linking to Radikal will probably bring yet another escalation of events, where this censored magazine will become all the more popular on the Net," said Felipe Rodriquez, managing director of XS4All, which is based in the Netherlands. "Censoring the Internet is usually very counterproductive, and an insurance that many people will mirror the information and start distributing it." XS4All, which describes itself as "networking for the masses," hosts some 4,600 homepages, and was recently in the news for posting several homepages for media banned in Serbia, such as Radio B92, that continue to offer via the Web live RealAudio feeds and frequent updates on the continued nationwide protests against the Serbian government. Banned in Germany 12 years ago, and published underground for the past decade, Radikal advocates the overthrow of the German government. German officials say the magazine's publishers provide terrorist information in their pages, including how to sabotage train lines. But the publishers argue that they have the right to publish material contrary to the German government. "We fundamentally reject the notion that the state has a monopoly on the legitimate use of force," the publishers wrote in an article titled "Who We Are" in 1995. "The existing social conditions can only be changed if left-radical groups and associations build up their abilities and structures so as to be able to counter some of these effects even today. This, of course, includes militant and armed intervention, but these would be empty gestures if there wasn't also some sort of linkage or means of conveying their message." While publishers continue to produce the magazine in print form outside of Germany, sympathizers have been posting it to a homepage on XS4All. "As an act of solidarity with them and with Radikal we decided to put it on the Internet and, of course, to frustrate this censorship attempt of the German authorities," the sympathizers wrote in an email to Wired News. They added that while they had no contact with the publishers of Radikal, they are currently being investigated by Germany's public prosecutor general and have no plans to "go on holiday in Germany." Although Radikal is not banned in the Netherlands, the German government says that linking to the magazine from inside Germany is "aiding a felony," spokesman Ruediger Reiff told Reuters. In December, Chancellor Helmut Kohl's Cabinet approved a bill banning the electronic distribution of forms of hate speech, terrorism, and indecent material. The new German law places responsibility on the loosely defined "suppliers," and in response, CompuServe considered moving its administrative operations to a neighboring country. PDS member Marquardt says her prosecution has less to do with Radikal, than an attempt to quiet German citizens who, like herself, are outspoken critics of the government. "This is hardly about bomb-building instructions or highly detailed descriptions of train lines and their weaknesses," Marquardt, who could not be reached for comment, wrote in a statement posted on her Web site. "The all-too-stubborn guardians of the state will quickly learn: The Net interprets censorship as a malfunction and circumvents it." In the meantime, XS4All has not received any official communication from the German Justice Department, nor from the Dutch Justice Department. "Our policy is that as a provider we are not in the position to judge whether this magazine is illegal in the Netherlands, therefore we do not interfere with the liberty of speech of our user," XS4All's Rodriquez said. Copyright =A9 1993-97 Wired Ventures, Inc. and affiliated companies= From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:12:01 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) Message-ID: <199701230212.SAA03079@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Forwarded message: > Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 03:16:00 -0800 > From: Toto > Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) > > Jim Choate wrote: > > 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to > > stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run > > our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any > > particular view on them. > > And Germany was Hitler and the Nazi Party's own country. And your point is? Are you equating a specific individual or organization with Hitler or the National Socialist? > Do you really want Clinton and GingWretch having a say in how we run > our No, and I have a vote to express that sentiment with and a 'press' (ssz.com) by which I may express my views irrelevant of how that vote may resolve itself. If the people in those counties want to give away their freedom that is their business (and right), not mine, yours, or this countries unless there is evidence they are trying to take their views and impose them here. Do you have said evidence? In reference to Hitler, had he stayed in his own country WWII and the ensuing half century of conflict would most likely not have occured. I say, let them filter themselves into economic collapse, intellectual nihilism, and political suicide. Suicide, assissted or otherwise, is a right any and all individuals have whether acting as individuals or as groups. Remember Masada! Never forget, a tree can exist without a forest but a forest can not exist without trees. It is a one way street however much some people may want to convince us otherwise. > It may be 'their' country ('their' being the government), but it is > 'their' world ('their' being the people). A goverment is people. This reminds me of the argument of the sanctity of law that so many people have. It is only ink on paper that people agree to go along with until they get their fill. Consider, history is full of examples of this process and with California and Massachusettes move on legalizing medical marijuana we may be seeing the first move of a return to states being much more adament on what they can and can't do (per the 9th and 10th). > There was a reason that the > Western powers didn't return East Germans who broke the laws of their > country by climbing over the wall and running for freedom. > Making information available does not 'force' a view on anyone. If those people agree to support a system that limits or controls what information they get to see that is their choice. It didn't work in Russia and it won't work in Singapore or China any better. If the US were to continue to press forward on oppressive legislation and the people don't do anything actively to fight it the same thing will happen here, economic collapse which forces a political collapse. However, we won't get there because the more the government employees and officials 'crack down' the more resistance they will get. You can fool most of the people some of the time, some of the people most of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time. The key to democratic success is not compromise but rather the unwillingness to compromise. > > Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share > > data in a easily digestible format. > > No. The internet was conceived so that the DOD could monitor the > communications > of physicists and researchers who thought it was awfully nice of the > government > to provide this wonderful method of sharing data and information. The Web does not equal the Internet, straw man argument. The original goal of the Internet was to allow computers to be connected in a nuclear conflict and the period afterward when communications would be most critical. How people may have bastardized it since then does not change the original reasons (unless you accept revisionist history as a valid endeavour, I don't). One of the biggest problems this country has right now is the inability of people like yourself to differentiate the difference between the ideals of the country and the people who impliment it. The problem is not the government or the ideals it was founded on but rather the way we impliment it. Our government is people, who put their pants on the same way you or I do (assuming you wear pants that is). They are not inherently some mineon of Hell, they are people who in general either don't give a damn and it's just a job or else they really believe what they are doing. Our government is NOT some ideal or non-real entity, despite how many citizens may rail about it in that manner. It just don't make it so. Accept and deal with your schizophrenic tendencies and help solve this national problem we face. Let's try to solve it now so that our grandchildren won't have to fight this fight again. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage@ssz.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: pgut001@cs.auckland.ac.nz Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 04:27:13 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Keyword scanning/speech recognition Message-ID: <199701221227.EAA23480@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I've found another collection of references on speech scanning/recognition, the February 1989 CACM, p.193, contains 38 references going back to 1980. It'd be an interesting exercise for anyone with access to a large library to trace back through these (some of them look promising, like a 1980 book "Trends in Speech Recognition" from which a number of references are taken) to see how far back you can go and at what point certain things became feasible. The CACM references would be a good starting point for a search. Peter. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: hjk Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:25:16 -0800 (PST) To: Dale Thorn Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes Message-ID: <199701222125.NAA28826@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote: > hjk wrote: .... > > I wonder who is so brainless, not to understand what's going on. > > Do you really think the subscribers are pure Idiots? > > Well, Heinz. You live in a country full of people, ordinary people, > variously called the hoi polloi, the sheeple, the unwashed masses, > and other interesting names. > ... > Now whatever you think of your fellow citizens, or even those of the > USA (to name an example), I'm sure is OK on whatever basis you apply > your judgement. But I guarantee you that the people on the cypherpunks > list are no more or less intelligent than the people who vegetate in > front of their TV sets every day, right there where you live, in all > probability. If you believe that your fellow citizens vote intelligently, > then I respond that cypherpunks vote intelligently. What do you think? > Well, I thought cypherpunks claim to be elite. Heinz-Juergen Keller hjk@ddorf.rhein-ruhr.de From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Declan McCullagh Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 19:40:37 -0800 (PST) To: Carl Ellison Subject: Re: David Kahn advocates GAK Message-ID: <199701230340.TAA04038@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain It is indeed a shame, and Carl's response was (of course) excellent. The last chapter of the revised edition of the Codebreakers is reasonably pro-government in the way it lays out the issue of key escrow, so perhaps we shouldn't be surprised. (I'm told that David's sojourn at the NSA museum was unexciting; they wouldn't tell him much.) :) -Declan On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Carl Ellison wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > It might also be that David's year long sabatical at NSA's crypto museum > which recently ended put him in touch with people who believe in GAK. > > I found it interesting that he noted the argument that each additional > day of government access is a good thing. This is the kind of belief > we know that NSA holds -- a.k.a. "not on my watch" -- but I haven't seen > it publicly admitted before. > > - Carl > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: 2.6.2 > > iQCVAwUBMuZ35lQXJENzYr45AQEcfwQAqMftG0DXn1nr6faA6IHeAtqSXYanwnZb > DiwqppU4nJqPtIvtFw8eOVVwyYCzIv046dFtwR2mk8HeL1v8I3R2sWm7waknFjlm > TM84+vLamlVnBNPUAXRYOrFiEhPQm/iitR4GVrcga9mHJ+vrI38XQGzi0lxdg310 > pWjq5Fxahag= > =xhF7 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > > > +------------------------------------------------------------------+ > |Carl M. Ellison cme@acm.org http://www.clark.net/pub/cme | > | PGP 2.6.2: 61 E2 DE 7F CB 9D 79 84 E9 C8 04 8B A6 32 21 A2 | > +-Officer, officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a dirty song.--+ > > > From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:40:36 -0800 (PST) To: hjk Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes Message-ID: <199701230640.WAA06696@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain hjk wrote: > On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote: > > hjk wrote: > > Now whatever you think of your fellow citizens, or even those of the > > USA (to name an example), I'm sure is OK on whatever basis you apply > > your judgement. But I guarantee you that the people on the cypherpunks > > list are no more or less intelligent than the people who vegetate in > > front of their TV sets every day, right there where you live, in all > > probability. If you believe that your fellow citizens vote intelligently, > > then I respond that cypherpunks vote intelligently. What do you think? > Well, I thought cypherpunks claim to be elite. Most of the erstwhile elite types do the ordinary things in a quite ordinary way. Get dressed, eat, collect and send e-mail, and so on. The un-ordinary things (for example) are the thought processes which take place while typing out a post. Those thought processes don't generally intersect directly with the mundane things such as operating the computer, unless the operations themselves are unusual and demand the full attention of the person involved. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:40:30 -0800 (PST) To: Igor Chudov Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing] Message-ID: <199701230640.WAA06684@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > Nurdane Oksas writes: > But think about this: suppose there is a couple, bob@household.com, > and alice@household.com. Suppose that Rev. Mallory does not like bob. > Mallory forges a lot of emails like "I can still taste your sperm > on my lips", that appear to originate from Cindy@phonesex.org. > Then, promptly, Mallory sends an anonymous alert to alice@household.com, > warning her about naughty email activities of bob. Alice gets mad at him > and divorces him. > How would bob protect himself against such developments? Frame-ups are as old as time. The ones that work the best are those that are the most believable. O.J., for example. Unless Alice is unusually flaky or paranoid, she'll consider her options against the time she has invested in Bob. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:26:54 -0800 (PST) To: "Attila T. Hun" Subject: Re: YEEHAW! Tobacco argument heats up in AZ Message-ID: <199701231426.GAA15726@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Attila T. Hun wrote: > summary: AZ AG filed for an injunction in the public interest to stop > the sale of tobacco in AZ. tobacco company response claimed he was > infringing on legislative rights... full story is below. > :: PHOENIX, Arizona (Reuter) - The tobacco industry filed > :: motions on Tuesday in a bid to dismiss the Arizona Attorney > :: General's law suit which seeks to ban the sale of tobacco in the > :: state. Lawyers for two of the defendants, Brown & Williamson > :: Tobacco Corp. and Philip Morris Cos Inc. (MO.N), said in a > :: statement the proposed ban would eliminate tax revenue from the > :: sale of tobacco which is used to fund healthcare and education > :: programs statewide. The Indians in Arizona have some special tax breaks on cigs, as a "sovereign nation" treaty deal or something, yes? Would this ban create any interesting opportunities? From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:35:18 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: ADSL (Was: GSM technology Message-ID: <199701230635.WAA06617@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Toto wrote: > > jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca wrote: > > A previous poster mentioned that because of the copper wire restriction, that > > they may deploy first in older centers. This would appear to be the case, since > > a Canadian telco (Sasktel) is offering ADSL in Saskatoon for 60$/month with > > unlimited internet access. Saskatoon falls into this category - in my opinion. > > > > I was only is SK briefly over New Years, but perhaps Toto can fill in details. > > James, > SaskTel has, for the most part, always had a monopoly on the telephone > business in Saskatchewan, and used this to keep the phone rates fairly > high. On the other hand, they also used much of the money to position > themselves to keep their monopoly by investing heavily in the newest > technologies. > As a result, they have a lot of fiber-optic, etc., even in the > boondocks, but they also soaked those people $ 6.00 hour for > InterNet access, until Sympatico came in with a competitive rate > of less than $ 1.00/hour, and then they stopped clipping the > sucker/citizens. > SaskTel left the 'upgrading' of the larger centers to last, and > as a result, their 'old' technology seems to be ironically beneficial > to them in being able to offer ADSL in Saskatoon, Regina, and a couple > of other centers. > > Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Mark M." Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:26:11 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) Message-ID: <199701230426.UAA04426@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote: > 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to > stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run > our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any > particular view on them. I don't want China or Singapore to have a say in how the web is run which is exactly why I would support any effort to make their filtering systems useless. What I put on my web page is my business and I can change the location of the URL as many times as I want and try to make it as difficult as possible to filter it. These countries have no say in whether or not I can do this. If they want to censor their Internet feed, that's their problem and I'm under no obligation to make it easy for them. > Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share > data in a easily digestible format. The web and technology in general have > no more ethics or morality intrinsicly in them than a 5/8" open end > wrench. Blocking and filtering are an expression of human choice and the > implimentation thereof. If it's forced upon the people, it's not a choice. Ultimately, the people can abolish the government if it becomes tyrannical, but not without a lot of lives being lost. I'd much rather try to make sure that people in these countries have free access to information than watch people getting crushed by tanks. > You don't like it, don't live there and don't try to > call there. You or I have no more right to be on a Chinese or Singapore > Internet than they have in coming into yours or my home without an > invitation. These countries want the benefits of being connected to the Internet without the burdens of the citizens having free access to information. It just doesn't work that way. They can pull the plug if they want. If they don't, then they have no right to complain about how people are smuggling subversive information into their respective countries. If the information was "uninvited", then nobody would be downloading it or accessing it anyway. Countries that want to censor their internet connections have the choice of either facing extreme economic difficulties as a result of not being connected to the Internet, or giving their people access to information that the government doesn't want these people to access. Either way, it will force these countries to change in some way. I think most of them will eventually settle for the latter choice. Allowing these countries to censor their connections will result in violence that could otherwise be avoided. Mark -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3 Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBMubkGSzIPc7jvyFpAQGAjAf8D5rdpWYSde9wAcMYvwIqVBQ1+O1692AN x8BOCzv8SYAA+4fA/zHZ4uEetxCikPP7ZF1Nr/K8Tmq5iK7Ed78jvHNj+FXZUB4q oRKolBTmmgkivO1NAKiNtV/NbSFlW+IV88VGZBPx7dwKjJ4JnpR/1HmwtScuQE14 O32NoQTO+6ujmALROdLTr3cGZo6iLl9pC4ZyFZtgTNSzQswT53usXnYkJ8bKlWC6 oj6XY18Jopyx0d2WAmN5pFX2goTnfQSH/Bw6XzDxDGdZNyIY5VxSPynd3018Slgs KH61gRRQ7ilPF4SyKiu+eH0Bvr6NbKonj60NFX0LzbYBDc1OWMYT2Q== =u+Ou -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:26:26 -0800 (PST) To: Amanda Walker Subject: Re: Keywords scanning/speech recognition Message-ID: <199701231426.GAA15705@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Amanda Walker wrote: > John Kelsey wrote: > This may or may not be relevant, but I was a math major during an NSA college- > recruitment drive in the early 1980s. As part of the "come work for the NSA" > packet they were giving out, they had a sample issue of the NSA internal > linguistics journal. One of the articles concerned a system called DYPTRACK, > which tracked the pitch of a digitized voice signal to an impressive degree of > accuracy. This would imply that the NSA, at least, had invested considerable > resources into digital speech analysis as early as the late 1960s or early > 1970s (since by 1980 DYPTRACK was un-sensitive enough to be described in > college recruitment material). I have a CD today (used to be an LP in the late 1970's) of Enrico Caruso arias, digitally processed thru something called Stockham/ Soundstream digital process, circa mid-late 1970's. They took a number of samples of a modern (1970's) tenor's singing (someone whose voice had similar characteristics to Caruso's) and had the computer run it against the original Caruso recordings in an attempt to subtract out extraneous noise, resonances, and so on. The process helped somewhat, making the voice seem closer intead of somewhere a couple of rooms over, but the essential quality of the mechanically-recorded sound was still there, i.e., very dull and not at all life-like. They were supposed to release a lot more of this stuff, and they did some, but major interest was never there, and I haven't heard any more about further research in the intervening years, although I'll bet it's gone way beyond where it was. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Carl Ellison Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:10:47 -0800 (PST) To: dccp@eff.org Subject: P.S. David Kahn's editorial today Message-ID: <199701230510.VAA04818@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I just sent the following P.S. to newsday.com ---------------------- There is another reason to have cellular phones which encrypt only the over-the-air portion of a call, besides the fact that we can leave normal wiretap access procedures in place and not surrender civilian crypto keys to the government. If I have a cellular phone which encrypts over the air (between the phone and the base station) and I call you, while you have a normal wired phone, our call is protected by cryptography from interception off the air. If I use an AT&T Clipper-style cellular phone, as David suggested, and I call you on a normal wired phone, we can't encrypt the conversation and it is vulnerable to interception. The protection works *only* if both parties have encrypting phones while interoperate. - Carl -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMubl6lQXJENzYr45AQEYagQAmVL47KGCHUyee8246VjGqr7+uubTBhHA s/TtgFiMW7a9W5jbni5ov+kjTDeGpRULfrbyEwYR2fd1E1laNeu+EAQkE56KuU9g iiB0S7TBd290MSHJZ6wQUWsDVgCzOi9gHbCQwY+GMQMXKfphuC4kDavwdSxjAXAM MeZsitFRM1w= =TzsP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Carl M. Ellison cme@acm.org http://www.clark.net/pub/cme | | PGP 2.6.2: 61 E2 DE 7F CB 9D 79 84 E9 C8 04 8B A6 32 21 A2 | +-Officer, officer, arrest that man. He's whistling a dirty song.--+ From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:28:06 -0800 (PST) To: Igor Chudov Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes Message-ID: <199701231428.GAA15793@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > Dale Thorn wrote: > > hjk wrote: > > > On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote: > > Most of the erstwhile elite types do the ordinary things in a quite > > ordinary way. Get dressed, eat, collect and send e-mail, and so on. > > The un-ordinary things (for example) are the thought processes which > > take place while typing out a post. Those thought processes don't > > generally intersect directly with the mundane things such as operating > > the computer, unless the operations themselves are unusual and demand > > the full attention of the person involved. > So what? The so what is that hjk believed that since cypherpunks were "elite", it followed that they would notice certain administrative messages more than non-elite people, and also remember those messages better. I had no contention with the remember-better part, assuming that was stated somewhere, but my argument is that greater intelligence does not necessarily lead to paying better attention to mundane everyday things like administrative messages and notices. The specific example was whether most cypherpunks subscribers would take more than momentary notice of the new list arrangements, and whether they would consciously think about whether they should change their status (subscription), and if so, why. My contention is that most would not give it any serious amount of attention. This is no different IMO than whether erstwhile "intelligent" people pay greater attention to road signs while driving than people of average mental power do. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Vin McLellan Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:10:50 -0800 (PST) To: Lucky Green Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP drives? Message-ID: <199701230510.VAA04819@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Lucky Green who is usually answering questions, wrote: >>>I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives. >>>Any advice would be appreciated. >Parallel on Win95. Hi Lucky, RSA has got their Win95 version of SecurPC. That's 128-bit RC4 encryption; maybe 10X the speed of DES. You could encrypt your zip data from Explorer either on demand, or automatically upon exiting WIN95. (It auto-decrypts on startup.) SecurPC doesn't yet have transparent (fully background) crypto, but given the market pressures, it obviously won't be long in coming. SecurPC does have a number of other unusual features that might offset the lack of transparency. My favorite: At least until the next version of ERA;-) RSA's SecurPC permits you to ship data over the US borders encrypted with 128-bit RC4 in a self-extracting file which can be opened by anyone, anywhere -- with the same OS as the sender, and the right (one-time?) password -- even if they don't have a copy of SecurPC. The key, passed out of band, is certainly not up to PKC standards... but for occasional connections, if you duck the dictionary attack, it looks pretty damn sturdy. One-way symmetric-- kinda neat! (Anyone know how it really works? I got a copy of the v1 user's manual from SDTI, where I do a lot of contract work -- but it doesn't really explain the split of functions. I'll have to ask.) Suerte, _Vin From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Anonymous Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:10:51 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Decision in Karn Case Message-ID: <199701230510.VAA04820@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > http://www.epic.org/crypto/export_controls/karn_decision_1_97.html > [...] > In light of the recent Executive Order transferring > regulatory authority of non-military cryptographic computer > source code to the Commerce Department, and the Commerce > Department's promulgation of a new regulation under the authority > of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, 50 U.S.C. secs. > 1701 et seq., we remand this case to the district court to > consider the reviewability of and, if appropriate, the merits of > appellant's claim under the Administrative Procedure Act. And when that review finally reaches the appeals court, the administration can move the regulations to the state department. The uniqueness of the anti-crypto regulations is that it is a law against intellectuals and academics. These people will not be willing to break the law and then challenge its constitutionality in the courts, or engage in any kind of civil disobedience demonstration. The author of premail, for example, is doing a weird kind of civil *obedience* demonstration to protect the laws. As long as that continues the government can get away with playing their shell game. By the way, what exactly happend to D.J. Bernstein's and the EFF's threat to seek an injunction from Judge Patel if the new regulations were not put on hold subject to constitutional review by January 2? No updates at www.eff.org. Did EFF strike another deal with the government? From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: ichudov@algebra.com Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:10:32 -0800 (PST) To: Cypherpunks Subject: Re: Thoughts re moderation, filtering, and name changes Message-ID: <199701231410.GAA15291@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dale Thorn wrote: > hjk wrote: > > On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote: > > > hjk wrote: > > > > Now whatever you think of your fellow citizens, or even those of the > > > USA (to name an example), I'm sure is OK on whatever basis you apply > > > your judgement. But I guarantee you that the people on the cypherpunks > > > list are no more or less intelligent than the people who vegetate in > > > front of their TV sets every day, right there where you live, in all > > > probability. If you believe that your fellow citizens vote intelligently, > > > then I respond that cypherpunks vote intelligently. What do you think? > > > Well, I thought cypherpunks claim to be elite. > > Most of the erstwhile elite types do the ordinary things in a quite > ordinary way. Get dressed, eat, collect and send e-mail, and so on. > > The un-ordinary things (for example) are the thought processes which > take place while typing out a post. Those thought processes don't > generally intersect directly with the mundane things such as operating > the computer, unless the operations themselves are unusual and demand > the full attention of the person involved. > So what? - Igor. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Bill Campbell Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:26:39 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Commerce Sec. Hearings and Encryption Message-ID: <199701230626.WAA06492@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I have been watching the confirmation hearings for William Daley, and I was amazed at the number of references in the questioning to encryption. I have been watching confirmation hearings for a long time and have never noticed this much attention being placed on such a (formerly?) obscure topic. It appears that encryption is definitely a big blip on the governmental radar screen now, although whether this is a good thing or a bad thing is definitely a debatable question. It's interesting to me that all this interest is coming up in a confirmation hearing for a *commerce* secretary. Maybe the commercial aspects of encryption can have a positive impact on the current restrictions; privacy rights certainly haven't had any impact. =Bill= From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: harka@nycmetro.com Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:27:18 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: encrypted WinTalk/e-mails Message-ID: <199701231427.GAA15768@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hi there, does anybody know about an encrypting snoop-proof version of WinTalk (or a similar ytalk-style program)? If so, please copy replies to my private e-mail, for I am currently not subscribed to the CP list... Thanks in advance for your help... Harka PS: Here is also a collection of free (anonymous?) e-mail account services for those, who are interested...(sorry about the html-tags).
  • NetForward
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  • From.Net /*************************************************************/ /* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE * */ /* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! * * */ /* * * */ /* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com * * */ /* * */ /* Finger or E-Mail for PGP public key. * * */ /* Key Size: 2047 / KeyID: 04174301 * * */ /* Fingerprint: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5 http://www.eff.org */ /* 28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */ /*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/ /* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve */ /* and may all living beings find the way to happiness... */ /*************************************************************/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAgUBMuRqMTltEBIEF0MBAQEKygf+KQEkQE/yH10cgly1aIJExAX+p2kPmcPb f/ro2ulaYrs4gklKff60HE0AD39SBmTGnCI4dUzOLy0UfgTyifQ/W8H+1b1GU0Bb UnFhvWCCc8KPOY6Kf4ZpdtdRsyJjqAKjyYthKAEIKmG/m/ZHI2uJ0+F1GYhtjyhO IE5RrCImncjLW3uaXxnktzy4+jDeoQEXCVRm6muIZj/TPgTvzabkMzK5Udy0Nm1n vjevvcAiA65PWnbAT+v+GNFPZq4bW//bEnzDYYXBD++QrC7bSGXe73iS2HbrVu3Y gQg7pseOdbS5bkudhw/pqcTl5zvcdvGoQfnXZpbp4VviSwWs045vjg== =jw27 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption... From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Attila T. Hun" Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:26:12 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks Subject: greed and the internet Message-ID: <199701230626.WAA06484@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- greed and the internet our network provider (MCI) has been gradually burying our T1 trunk and the effective feed has been reduced to 1200 baud from 1.56 Megabaud; that, and add 20 seconds to 5+ minutes of packet hold, and it is now worthless. they claim they will have increased capacity, but there are no pressing big money commercial interests on this feeder --so when? Problem is not just here --everywhere; the greedy commercial bastards have oversold their network space intentionally as they are bucking for per packet and timed usage charges which are currently prohibited by the FCC and the state PUCs. The FCC is the key since other than the local network, which is burdened with the costs of the trunk, everything is regulated by the FCC which is trying to totally eliminate the state PUCs in the 105th Congress, Newt's mouth not withstanding. The FCC agreed to review the matter, capitulating to big greed interests, which will make the Internet a rich man's toy. $19.95/month plus access charges will increase to thousands of dollars per month; slow networks make toast of the free hours and overtime kills. Without the creative input of the multitude, there will be no content, so why have a net other than for commercial purposes? suites the misinformation cabal just fine. Well, the FCC granted a reprieve --for the moment. but will come up again, and again, until it passes. The Internet will no no longer be the peoples net, and the commercial greedies are establishing a faster, more secure network with controlled access points; leaving the common man's access in the mud, still paying the exorbitant rates on a pay before play basis. That, and it gives control of information to the government --which, as we all know. is 'heavenly white' -above sin. Universities are being bought off with the 'Internet II' proposal which provides super trunks of over 600 Megabaud capacity, a 400 times improvement. All of this feeds into five stategically placed super-hubs where Uncle's shadow government can monitor everything. The Internet was supposed to be our freedom: freedom of information and government in the sunshine, but government is proving it is still bigger, faster, and badder by using draconian rules of illegal regulatory agencies. agencies which are usurping rights limited to the legislative branch. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later. iQCVAwUBMubOW704kQrCC2kFAQE0gQQAxrkUhyX5wl+dZ/i6ajMJXAD7f+gpvc6Z CBik+g62RqWrMbOblfLRubhEIWUfK2FQxIBRJ+0cQezCH4IfM1CxbytJ4Cx3BBBs GwHGuhTfLnGVnuCAugguRdNUrd/tXaN47pAVqmg330XvLlTJqha8ODPsi2b+7qst 2z8qbOW0cqo= =M9c5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: snow Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:26:10 -0800 (PST) To: Toto Subject: Re: fingerd Message-ID: <199701231426.GAA15678@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > > Couple of things you can do: > > 2. Install a more secure "fingerd" such that it only > > allows "finger `userid@node.domain`" instead of > > "finger `@node.domain`". > > While I've seen #2 in action, I don't know where to go to snarf it. I just > > use #1. > Anyone know where to 'snarf it'? cfingerd can be gotten from: ftp.bitgate.com/pub/cfingerd/pub/cfingerd -or- sunsite.unc.edu/pub/Linux/system/Network/finger There are a couple of other fingerd's in the sunsite directory. Cfinger seemed to be the best last time I was looking for a fingerd. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Attila T. Hun" Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:26:46 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks Subject: justice for cryptography, US style Message-ID: <199701230626.WAA06507@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Looks to me like Carl needs to understand justice, U.S. federal court style. In the first place: "ignorance is no excuse under the law" -then: ask yourself why the U.S. continues the drug war when it is obvious to the perverted, ignorant, and bought-off Congress- person that it will never be won. the answer is simple: it's MONEY. First, the government makes a fortune by importing drugs, which they can use for unaccountable programs which are illegal under law. The money is controlled by the CIA, administration, and the power brokers in the deal which basically states it all; and, secondly, there is money in imprisonment. Oh? so then ask yourself why the federal prisons have tripled in size the last 10 years with the dope wars. coincidental? now, what does that have to do with crypto? very simple: as the US heads closer and closer to the UN Constitution under Bubba's guidance with Hillary's hands on his balls, crypto can bypass political thought control. That will not be acceptable to those who rule: in the US, or anywhere else. "Intimidation is just another form of communication." (attila) and they have intimidated federal judges, and they are intimidating federal judges, and they will continue to intimdate federal judges. and, they will continue to feed the media what they want known. so, what does that have to do with it? a) the federal government is disenfranchising felons with certain types of convictions, including drugs, and all offenses against the federal government --cryptography is an offense against the federal government since it falls under ITAR. do you know what disenfranchisement really means: well, start with fact you have lost your civil rights --ALL of them. the man never needs a warrant to take you, anywhere. anyplace, including your home without knocking --he has automatic probable cause. all federal convictions of the type described carry a tail --extended probation. in other words, a sadistic, sadonic, and automatically suspicious federal civil servant OWNS you. He can visit your employer; he can tell you exactly how to run your business if you are self-employed; he can tell you if you can move; he can tell you who you will see or talk with; and if tells you to polish his apple, get on your knees and smile while you labour. b) no vote --that is the principle meaning of franchise which is defined as "suffrage." you are history on that score unless you manage to convince Bubba to grant you a federal pardon. c) the federal govenment, through one of their federal money giveaways is forcing the criminal records onto the drivers' license. So far, no state has a check box on the sealed photo ID, but they will, including a coded offense block. d) now, the big credit bureaus, TRW, Equifax, etc. have added the collection of data for traffic convictions; so far they have not added either misdemeanor and felony >>arrests<< and convictions to the _available_ information, but they will. Did you know that you can have a 3 or 4 page rap sheet for a single arrest/offense/conviction by the time they rewrite charges, which is common in, you guessed it: dope cases, and propably will be in crypto cases as the Federales discover more evidence (planted, decoded, whatever?). e) You know, I'm beginning to like Mississippi's statutory rape laws better all the time. The age is 18, as high it goes in all 50 states --but it only applies if the minor female is over 12 and can prove she is a virgin... yeah, right, where the only virgin over eight can run faster than her brothers... e) prisons are big business; and, government has undertaken a program of privatization of the prison system --in other words, the big government oriented contractors, like SAIC chaired by Bobby Inman, are planning to make a profit housing government misjustice. do they like to make money? does this sound like slave labour to you? sounds like government 'letting' of business. P.J. O'Rourke has the definitive result of that: "When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators" well, I'm too old for the civil disobedience game or deliberately begging the law; I do not wish to head for the 3 hots ad a cot of federal hospitality wearing more years than I can carry. but you'd better believe and if you wish to even try to beat the government back, don't think you have any rights in America. Just remember Judge Roy Bean is sitting in his large $1,500-2,000 comforatable chair about a meter above you, smiling down on you as you sit in the hard, cold, flimsy chair of the dock, after our esteemed judge got drunk last night with his cronies. After all, Judge Roy, who's only human, suffers from an inferiority complex, and needs a power rush. And after this poor excuse for a human lays 3 fives running wild (15) and 6 tail on you, try smiling at the judge; then say: "thank you your honor, but you're just another fuckin' drunk." == ====== ORIGINAL MESSAGE ====== In <32C27B88.558@sk.sympatico.ca>, on 12/26/96 at 05:20 AM, Carl Johnson said: ::jim bell wrote: ::> ::> However, if being "on the Internet" is automatically presumed to be ::> an export, why can't we program using remote-control editors which ::> might, someday, be available on the Internet? :: If I wanted to export an unexportable program, I would put it on my :: machine as 'happyface.zip', and then make sure that everybody :: spread the word that it was available under that title. I don't :: believe there is a prosecutor alive that can convince a jury of :: twelve mostly non-technically oriented people that someone should :: be put in prison for not knowing the content of every single :: non-text file on their machine. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later. iQCVAwUBMubSx704kQrCC2kFAQHaZwP+LZe99M0ntnj0za+TSAG6TtMr55MH7VBG y0PLMkKLQGb7Gi5mt72BBZ8XNoVLlBHqxsdpWdI0u812aVj78+L0hQojeuyzyUph 4hJo3N7U5ITscNeks8IbClzl8UNkoKaW5UH0bQlL6EaU7AvmmB15g6nQ4C59rBos l2AQiOZZtwU= =QJSj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:27:56 -0800 (PST) To: Jim Choate Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) Message-ID: <199701231427.GAA15792@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Jim Choate wrote: > > Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) > > > 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to > > > stop it. > > And Germany was Hitler and the Nazi Party's own country. > And your point is? Are you equating a specific individual or organization > with Hitler or the National Socialist? Sorry, I forgot that people who work well with numbers often aren't as good at working with concepts. I'll write slowly. I'm equating 'any' country where individuals take and keep power over it's citizen by illicit and/or dehumanizing means with Nazism and Fascism. > If the people in those counties want to give away their freedom that > is their business (and right), not mine, yours, or this countries unless > there is evidence they are trying to take their views and impose them here. Right. And if someone 'chooses' to give their money to a thief with a gun, then it is not the business of other people, or the police. I would hate to interfere with someones 'right' to get robbed, raped, or murdered. > In reference to Hitler, had he stayed in his own > country WWII and the ensuing half century of conflict would most likely not > have occured. But according to your viewpoint, countries he had not invaded had no right to 'help' those he conquered. Perhaps Hitler was merely the Dr. Vulis of isolationism. The isolationists' claims that the affairs of other countries were not our affairs changed rather rapidly when it became apparent that they had better either get their heads out of their butts, or learn to speak German. > I say, let them filter themselves into economic collapse, intellectual > nihilism, and political suicide. Suicide, assissted or otherwise, is a right > any and all individuals have whether acting as individuals or as groups. It seems that several million Jews got 'filtered' into 'nihilism' during the Second World War while the isolationists were busy not interfering with the rights of individuals in other nations to commit 'suicide' at the hands of the Nazis. > Never forget, a tree can exist without a forest but a forest can not exist > without trees. It is a one way street however much some people may want to > convince us otherwise. Never forget. A forest can apparently exist without Jewish trees. > If those people agree to support a system that limits or controls what > information they get to see that is their choice. It didn't work in Russia > and it won't work in Singapore or China any better. There are a lot of people lying in graves around the world who might suggest that perhaps they didn't support the system that limited, controlled, and murdered them. They might also argue that it 'did' work in many countries, for many years. > > No. The internet was conceived so that the DOD could monitor the > > communications > > of physicists and researchers who thought it was awfully nice of the > > government > > to provide this wonderful method of sharing data and information. > > The original goal > of the Internet was to allow computers to be connected in a nuclear conflict > and the period afterward when communications would be most critical. I believe you mean the 'stated' original goal of the InterNet. (Similar to the 'stated' goal of crypto regulations.) A series of manuscripts entitled "The True Story of the InterNet" expose the shadowy faces behind the facade of the InterNet, and the plans, during its very inception, for it to become part of the underlying fabric of everyday life, internationally. They were almost considered to be sci-fiction at the time they were written, because the InterNet, at the time was just a smallish, specialized, technical entity at the time. The claims they made for the InterNet being foreordained to become almost exactly what it is now becoming were written off as ludicrous. > One of the biggest problems this country has right now is the inability of > people like yourself to differentiate the difference between the ideals of > the country and the people who impliment it. You seem to have very strong feelings about people who think differently from yourself being a 'big problem'. > The problem is not the > government or the ideals it was founded on but rather the way we impliment > it. The battle cry of every apologist for every corrupt or jackboot regime that has ever existed on earth. Why do I never hear this view from anyone who is being censored, persecuted, or who can hear the jackboots thumping against their own door or their neighbor's door? It always seems to come from someone who is getting their piece of the pie and is worried that it might end. > Our government is people, who put their pants on the same way you or I > do (assuming you wear pants that is). They are not inherently some mineon of > Hell, they are people who in general either don't give a damn and it's just > a job or else they really believe what they are doing. You might try reading something other than 'Life' magazines from the 1950's if you want to get a little better picture of how our government really operates. > Accept and deal with your schizophrenic tendencies and help solve this > national problem we face. Let's try to solve it now so that our > grandchildren won't have to fight this fight again. I'm already working toward solving the problems that I see, in other countries as well as this one. The people behind the Iron Curtain have never seemed to have any problem with me risking my life and liberty making prohibited information available to them. "I can hear the rumbling of the trucks as they come up the street, and soon I will be hearing the thumping of the jackboots storming up the staircase, as I have heard them so many times before. But I suspect that, this time, the sound will be different, that it will have an ethereal quality about it, one which conveys greater personal meaning than it did when I heard it on previous occasions. "This time, they are coming for me." "My only hope, is that I can find the strength of character somewhere inside myself to ask the question which lies at the heart of why there is a 'they' to come for me at all...why, in the end, it has finally come to this for me, as for countless others. "The question is, in retrospect, as simple and basic as it is essential for any who still espouse the concepts of freedom and liberty to ask themselves upon finding themselves marveling at the outrageousness being perpetrated upon their neighbors by 'them'...by 'others'...by 'Friends of the Destroyer.' "The question is...'Why didn't "I" do something?'" A quote from the personal diary of Vice-Admiral B. D'Shauneaux, from the Prologue to Part II of 'The True Story of the InterNet' Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:26:28 -0800 (PST) To: Anonymous Subject: Re: Decision in Karn Case Message-ID: <199701231426.GAA15706@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Anonymous wrote: > > In light of the recent Executive Order transferring > > regulatory authority of non-military cryptographic computer > > source code to the Commerce Department, and the Commerce > > Department's promulgation of a new regulation under the authority > > of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act, 50 U.S.C. secs. > > 1701 et seq., we remand this case to the district court to > > consider the reviewability of and, if appropriate, the merits of > > appellant's claim under the Administrative Procedure Act. > > And when that review finally reaches the appeals court, > the administration can move the regulations to the state department. Look on the bright side. Maybe they'll move them around so much that they'll lose them. > The uniqueness of the anti-crypto regulations is that it is a law > against intellectuals and academics. These people will not be willing to > break the law and then challenge its constitutionality in the courts, > or engage in any kind of civil disobedience demonstration. That is why the thugs and the brown-shirts always start by attacking scattered individuals and those they can easily brand 'troublemakers.' (Only in rare instances, do they start with Doctors). The intellectuals and academics might, at best, utter a few tut-tut's, and by the time that the rule of force has become the order of the day, there is no longer anyone 'below' them left free to object to the attacks on themselves. Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Attila T. Hun" Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:40:46 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks Subject: JUSTICE: foolish confrontations therewith Message-ID: <199701230640.WAA06717@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Looks to me like Carl needs to understand justice, U.S. federal court style. In the first place: "ignorance is no excuse under the law" -then: ask yourself why the U.S. continues the drug war when it is obvious to the perverted, ignorant, and bought-off Congress- person that it will never be won. the answer is simple: it's MONEY. First, the government makes a fortune by importing drugs, which they can use for unaccountable programs which are illegal under law. The money is controlled by the CIA, administration, and the power brokers in the deal which basically states it all; and, secondly, there is money in imprisonment. Oh? so then ask yourself why the federal prisons have tripled in size the last 10 years with the dope wars. coincidental? now, what does that have to do with crypto? very simple: as the US heads closer and closer to the UN Constitution under Bubba's guidance with Hillary's hands on his balls, crypto can bypass political thought control. That will not be acceptable to those who rule: in the US, or anywhere else. "Intimidation is just another form of communication." (attila) and they have intimidated federal judges, and they are intimidating federal judges, and they will continue to intimdate federal judges. and, they will continue to feed the media what they want known. so, what does that have to do with it? a) the federal government is disenfranchising felons with certain types of convictions, including drugs, and all offenses against the federal government --cryptography is an offense against the federal government since it falls under ITAR. do you know what disenfranchisement really means: well, start with fact you have lost your civil rights --ALL of them. the man never needs a warrant to take you, anywhere. anyplace, including your home without knocking --he has automatic probable cause. all federal convictions of the type described carry a tail --extended probation. in other words, a sadistic, sadonic, and automatically suspicious federal civil servant OWNS you. He can visit your employer; he can tell you exactly how to run your business if you are self-employed; he can tell you if you can move; he can tell you who you will see or talk with; and if tells you to polish his apple, get on your knees and smile while you labour. b) no vote --that is the principle meaning of franchise which is defined as "suffrage." you are history on that score unless you manage to convince Bubba to grant you a federal pardon. c) the federal govenment, through one of their federal money giveaways is forcing the criminal records onto the drivers' license. So far, no state has a check box on the sealed photo ID, but they will, including a coded offense block. d) now, the big credit bureaus, TRW, Equifax, etc. have added the collection of data for traffic convictions; so far they have not added either misdemeanor and felony >>arrests<< and convictions to the _available_ information, but they will. Did you know that you can have a 3 or 4 page rap sheet for a single arrest/offense/conviction by the time they rewrite charges, which is common in, you guessed it: dope cases, and propably will be in crypto cases as the Federales discover more evidence (planted, decoded, whatever?). e) You know, I'm beginning to like Mississippi's statutory rape laws better all the time. The age is 18, as high it goes in all 50 states --but it only applies if the minor female is over 12 and can prove she is a virgin... yeah, right, where the only virgin over eight can run faster than her brothers... e) prisons are big business; and, government has undertaken a program of privatization of the prison system --in other words, the big government oriented contractors, like SAIC chaired by Bobby Inman, are planning to make a profit housing government misjustice. do they like to make money? does this sound like slave labour to you? sounds like government 'letting' of business. P.J. O'Rourke has the definitive result of that: "When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold are legislators" well, I'm too old for the civil disobedience game or deliberately begging the law; I do not wish to head for the 3 hots ad a cot of federal hospitality wearing more years than I can carry. but you'd better believe and if you wish to even try to beat the government back, don't think you have any rights in America. Just remember Judge Roy Bean is sitting in his large $1,500-2,000 comforatable chair about a meter above you, smiling down on you as you sit in the hard, cold, flimsy chair of the dock, after our esteemed judge got drunk last night with his cronies. After all, Judge Roy, who's only human, suffers from an inferiority complex, and needs a power rush. And after this poor excuse for a human lays 3 fives running wild (15) and 6 tail on you, try smiling at the judge; then say: "thank you your honor, but you're just another fuckin' drunk." == ====== ORIGINAL MESSAGE ====== In <32C27B88.558@sk.sympatico.ca>, on 12/26/96 at 05:20 AM, Carl Johnson said: ::jim bell wrote: ::> ::> However, if being "on the Internet" is automatically presumed to be ::> an export, why can't we program using remote-control editors which ::> might, someday, be available on the Internet? :: If I wanted to export an unexportable program, I would put it on my :: machine as 'happyface.zip', and then make sure that everybody :: spread the word that it was available under that title. I don't :: believe there is a prosecutor alive that can convince a jury of :: twelve mostly non-technically oriented people that someone should :: be put in prison for not knowing the content of every single :: non-text file on their machine. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later. iQCVAwUBMucAh704kQrCC2kFAQFVzwQAs1HyC04QqpFa0QG5OiS5FwKvW3rP0xWd RGLSEVgyHkub/ecVlha5XMKQBhprGkyACxfwWs1QzjFGPxWd/0uW670eaf4e8ALK a7sANK1rFLDO001Gyep55qduGX+HzU5KEW8JhiB+iXisle76/Ek5Vntyq9i9iS9s soeyDvea8LI= =AqZU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Attila T. Hun" Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:40:41 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks Subject: seeds of our own destruction Message-ID: <199701230640.WAA06709@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- the pieces of our own destruction by a universal government of a few are all there, many fully documented as bits and pieces; someone who does not have a well known interest in the conspiracy groups to prevent the press from thundering "conspiracy theory" needs to compile a graphical presentation for the monkeys. good luck trying to deliver the message to joe couch potato. the controlled media networks would never sell you time. It is not so much a conspiracy as it is separate, or even UN, groups, working for their own interests --who has the stick?-- Unfortunately, too many of them have overlapped by their common need for a common army, a common taxation system (obviously not balanced by equity) and the right to non-representative taxation after they destroy freedom of speech/privacy and take away the hardware. worse than middle period Marx utopian liberated socialism! The UN's _printed_ statement of the conclusion of the wealth distribution was a UN tax authority to redistribute the wealth.... What intrigues me the most is that even the very rich can not survive in the cesspool they will create. there will be no distinguished caste, no educated caste, etc. You will see the attitude with just barely educated type administrators who will say: "gifted?" Or, she can fend for herself, and eventually just sending the gifted child off to the vegatable farm. Despite all the utopian talk about social order, politically correct unisex, socialism will never deliver enough exceptional individuals to be able to povide all the pyschologists and social workers they envision. Obviously, the fact the white man is probably less than 15% of the total population and has over 80% of the industrial wealth tells you where it starts. The UN is talking about master agricultual product control warehousing and distribution. If 20% of the population is well fed, does that include the US, Canada, Russia (that's a joke), and the grain producing areas of the world? or will the white man be just part of the rest --hungry? == Tyranny Insurance by Colt Manufacturing Co. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later. iQCVAwUBMuby9704kQrCC2kFAQFi2QP/RUQibIsyslYso5y7C84fJk3DN/Dn6jqI F4WI2kG0m4nw+rsS97mBJYKzh8V/I8rJd+OPzTwyreVqwPIa9O1E+e9TY2pF+M89 IP/heC/B9Wb3+ZKsJT1+CpWRmIWI0PAHxGSgWkMnIxyl+QajSeDXZMNJ9IVhfpLA zcBo1zfXRCk= =lbD1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Attila T. Hun" Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:27:13 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks Subject: at least we have some friends... Message-ID: <199701231427.GAA15763@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- +New encryption bill on way +By Alex Lash +January 22, 1997, 8:45 p.m. PT +see http://www.news.com/News/Item/0%2C4%2C7236%2C00.html?nd +Sen. Conrad Burns (R-Montana) next week will reintroduce legislation +aimed at wiping out most Commerce Department restrictions on the +export of software encryption, his press secretary said today. +The new version of the so-called Pro-Code bill, which died in the +Senate Commerce Committee last year after a series of high-profile +hearings, will be unchanged and should have the same support it +gained in the 1996 session, Burns's press secretary Matt Raymond said. +"The language was not something that was arrived at lightly," Raymond +said. "We should have time for a more robust and considerate debate" +compared with last year's unsuccessful rush to get the bill passed, +he added. +Burns, a leading figure on the Senate Commerce Committee, is set to +appear via satellite Tuesday at the RSA Data Security Conference in +San Francisco to announce the bill's reintroduction. +Foes of the Clinton administration's current encryption regulations, +which became effective on January 1, are looking for Congress to +legislate more liberal export guildelines. Last year, the Pro-Code +bill won the support of many key members of Congress who remain in +office and want to modify Clinton's encryption plan. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later. iQCVAwUBMucJKr04kQrCC2kFAQGcjwP/cjxEQcxixtx1nEg5lC6cBXK85Ff8FIkn 4x176KJokc4RSD1fNWhJkeHUYi1HCrp6nD4VsNP9Ud3c9rC2XNcGtnTEDAwZ0ikS 03kz9fUqptU6GE+Mrjl/FLhcDfSYlTUsFrFKYcTuge2nVJUAz2+kbaFg4qT9njyO 1vro9FplgIw= =ktMy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Adam Shostack Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:29:49 -0800 (PST) To: Carl Ellison Subject: Re: P.S. David Kahn's editorial today Message-ID: <199701231429.GAA15847@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Carl Ellison wrote: | I just sent the following P.S. to newsday.com | ---------------------- | | If I use an AT&T Clipper-style cellular phone, as David suggested, and I | call you on a normal wired phone, we can't encrypt the conversation and it | is vulnerable to interception. The protection works *only* if both parties | have encrypting phones while interoperate. Its worth thinking about multiple layers of protection for a datastream. The end to end encryption issue is seperate from the issue of mobile to base encryption (and mobile to base authentication, for that matter.) Compute power is getting cheap enough that doing both seems roughly feasable to me. Multiple protective layers is also nice in an environment where theres policy checking going on, ie, a firewall. SSL only gets plugged through a firewall because it can't be partially unwrapped. I can't proxy in any meaningful sense. Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 08:10:36 -0800 (PST) To: snow Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment Message-ID: <199701231610.IAA18740@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain snow wrote: > Thorn: > > Alec wrote: > > The idea that "sin" and "evil" are abstract and somewhat arbitrary is > > merely a human (and therefore faulty) perception. > > If God can be perfect by definition (for sake of argument), then "sin" > Somewhere in the above three lines, someone is making a hell of an > asumption. See also "The Euthphro Question", plato. Humans do OK with simple issues, example: 1 + 1 = 2. Especially true if the issue has no inherent moral/ethical tie-in. Once you get past the simple, however, you start seeing motivation, personal imperative, etc., which leads to hidden agendas and lies. When I speak of God, I'm not surrendering any personal power, or subscribing to your God concept necessarily (e.g. Plato), I'm just defining an object of pure reason that is free of human self-interest, for sake of argument. > > A gentleman wrote to Southern Partisan magazine a few years ago and > > said "Real freedom is not the license to do whatever you want, but > > rather the liberty to do what you ought to do". > No, real freedom is being able to decide for yourself what you ought to > do--or--who the hell decides what I ought to do? My example shows that real freedom goes hand-in-hand with responsibility. A person could interpret my example in a way that "what you ought to do" is defined and controlled by external parties, but that was not my point or the point of the original author. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: snow Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:26:18 -0800 (PST) To: Dale Thorn Subject: Re: Dr. Vulis' social engineering experiment Message-ID: <199701231426.GAA15704@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Thorn: > Alec wrote: > The idea that "sin" and "evil" are abstract and somewhat arbitrary is > merely a human (and therefore faulty) perception. > If God can be perfect by definition (for sake of argument), then "sin" Somewhere in the above three lines, someone is making a hell of an asumption. See also "The Euthphro Question", plato. > A gentleman wrote to Southern Partisan magazine a few years ago and > said "Real freedom is not the license to do whatever you want, but > rather the liberty to do what you ought to do". No, real freedom is being able to decide for yourself what you ought to do--or--who the hell decides what I ought to do? From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: snow Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 06:25:54 -0800 (PST) To: Lucky Green Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP drives? Message-ID: <199701231425.GAA15636@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > > I am looking for a transparent (strong) encryption of ZIP drives. Any advice would be appreciated. > For which OS, and SCSI or Parallel version? From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Internaut Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:01:46 -0800 (PST) To: "'Attila T. Hun'" Subject: RE: greed and the internet Message-ID: <199701231801.KAA21582@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Will you send some references for Internet II and the government hubs? Thx, Internaut ---------- From: Attila T. Hun[SMTP:attila@primenet.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 1997 08.32 PM To: cypherpunks Subject: greed and the internet -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- greed and the internet our network provider (MCI) has been gradually burying our T1 trunk and the effective feed has been reduced to 1200 baud from 1.56 Megabaud; that, and add 20 seconds to 5+ minutes of packet hold, and it is now worthless. they claim they will have increased capacity, but there are no pressing big money commercial interests on this feeder --so when? Problem is not just here --everywhere; the greedy commercial bastards have oversold their network space intentionally as they are bucking for per packet and timed usage charges which are currently prohibited by the FCC and the state PUCs. The FCC is the key since other than the local network, which is burdened with the costs of the trunk, everything is regulated by the FCC which is trying to totally eliminate the state PUCs in the 105th Congress, Newt's mouth not withstanding. The FCC agreed to review the matter, capitulating to big greed interests, which will make the Internet a rich man's toy. $19.95/month plus access charges will increase to thousands of dollars per month; slow networks make toast of the free hours and overtime kills. Without the creative input of the multitude, there will be no content, so why have a net other than for commercial purposes? suites the misinformation cabal just fine. Well, the FCC granted a reprieve --for the moment. but will come up again, and again, until it passes. The Internet will no no longer be the peoples net, and the commercial greedies are establishing a faster, more secure network with controlled access points; leaving the common man's access in the mud, still paying the exorbitant rates on a pay before play basis. That, and it gives control of information to the government --which, as we all know. is 'heavenly white' -above sin. Universities are being bought off with the 'Internet II' proposal which provides super trunks of over 600 Megabaud capacity, a 400 times improvement. All of this feeds into five stategically placed super-hubs where Uncle's shadow government can monitor everything. The Internet was supposed to be our freedom: freedom of information and government in the sunshine, but government is proving it is still bigger, faster, and badder by using draconian rules of illegal regulatory agencies. agencies which are usurping rights limited to the legislative branch. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later. iQCVAwUBMubOW704kQrCC2kFAQE0gQQAxrkUhyX5wl+dZ/i6ajMJXAD7f+gpvc6Z CBik+g62RqWrMbOblfLRubhEIWUfK2FQxIBRJ+0cQezCH4IfM1CxbytJ4Cx3BBBs GwHGuhTfLnGVnuCAugguRdNUrd/tXaN47pAVqmg330XvLlTJqha8ODPsi2b+7qst 2z8qbOW0cqo= =M9c5 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Adam Shostack Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 09:12:10 -0800 (PST) To: Cypherpunks Mailing List Subject: [Noise] From The Onion Message-ID: <199701231712.JAA20354@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain SATAN TO REVISE BAR CODE SYSTEM NEW YORK--Responding to retailers' calls to "streamline the Mark of the Beast," Satan announced plans Monday to make significant changes in the UPC symbol by the end of the millenium. "All men, small and great, rich and poor, slave and free, shall bear the mark of the beast," Satan said. The mark, "666," now hidden in every UPC symbol, may be more effective if taken off products and burned directly onto consumers' foreheads or hands, according to The Father of Lies. Said National Reserve Board Chairman Alan Greenspan: "As foretold in the Book of Revelations, it shall come to pass that no man shall be able to buy or sell without the Mark of the Beast." The new bar code system will be introduced through a series of televised public-service announcements featuring Friends star Matthew Perry and Satan, who will appear as a beast with seven heads and ten horns. http://www.theonion.com/onion3102/index3102.html -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "William H. Geiger III" Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 11:41:12 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: No Dimitri?? Message-ID: <199701231941.LAA24236@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple of days. I am assuming that this means that the list moderation has now started? - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info - ----------------------------------------------------------- Tag-O-Matic: OS/2: Logic, not magic. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMuexAI9Co1n+aLhhAQGcIAQAkEhaPi0bljU274ZXgkjU3rXFmIrUS4dm OEm0CqTH0eGDYHyftEyGdwI8ibKukC9SVpgG8bzgKHP+O4tjXJN+afcVAHbTxaMy uVqxgsvOexUR0tFKVCQ7MySMwCyDudCSbsDgf8Ox2swISwmIOqaxwLrBF5DqDy9w G6JNq5gUruo= =hIV+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Sean Roach Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:32:14 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Commerical applications (was: Development and validation (fwd) Message-ID: <199701232232.OAA28577@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 05:20 PM 1/23/97 +1100, proff@suburbia.net wrote: ... >The catch is that positive votes are inherently more valuable than >negative votes, since to obstruct progress requires a number of votes >equal to the outstanding proposals, but to move forward a proposal only >requires a number of votes equal to the proposal. Blind obstructionism >(and blind advocacy) are uneconomical. That's the point of having >more than one vote to potentially spend on an issue, with potentially >more issues than you can vote on all of them. You will have to pick >you battles carefully if you want to avoid being lost in the noise. > Here you risk the media controlling the vote even better. First they push a tearjerker proposal early in the year to swallow up all of the votes, then they ask for special interest legislation to protect their respective monopolies on grounds of ecology, (one paper means more trees, one TV station means clearer communication, etc.) ... >For reciprocity, it's possible to charge off percentages in the >win/lose case to bias the power concentration: if your side wins, it >costs you one less token then you voted, etc.. Again, initial >bylaws are established through constitution provision: "we have the >power that is being shared, therefore, these are the weights". > ... This prompts people to vote with who they think will win as opposed to how they feel. In this case the media shows numerous charts showing a pending landslide in thier favor. What do you know, everyone voted in favor of the media just to recycle votes. ... >Heh. I was thinking more in terms of its value as a cascade trigger >to increasingly complex social organisms in the Internet implementation >space. Representational democracies (republics, really) came about >because of rate limits on communication. The US could not elect a >president by popular vote because there were no methods of verification, >and communication rates were limited by travel time. Therefore, the >US has an Electoral College. But a side effect of this structure is >a bias for bipartite seperation of interests, instead of seperation >into as many interest groups as it takes to do the job of mapping the >interest space. This bias is not removed because the bipartite >interests have (and must continue to have) the power concentration. >This leads to continued "wasted vote syndrome", where people vote >for the lesser of two evils instead of voting their conscience... an >effect of mass psychology. Similar pressures prevent the polling >times from being changed to opening at 8am EST and closing at 8am EST >to prevent early returns from earlier time zones influencing the >outcome of elections before people in later time zones have even voted. >For example, Ross Perot got almost 20% of the vote in the 1992 >election, but 0% of the electors. He would still have lost, given >the actual values. There is actually a case in US history where the >winner of the electoral vote lost the popular vote... the president >was not chosen by the people, but by the electors. ... Actually, our founding fathers thought that the people were morons, a reasonable assumption since news carried so slowly and most people were more worried about how to survive the winter than how to read. ... >Yep. The reason I went weighted, by the way, was the volunteer >nature of the project. In theory, number of vote tokens spent >should be proportional to willingness to actually volunteer. As >you point out, there could be feedback here as well: for instance, >if a proposal passes, if it is completed, the tokens spent on >the vote could be refunded to those who voted for it. If it dies >on the vine, the tokens could be refunded to those who voted >against it. Being right would give you more license to participate, >and being wrong would not, etc.. Again, a matter for the initial >bylaws. ... Not being right, just agreeing with the concensus. Remember that most of the Germans eventually agreed with Hitler, that did not make them right. By the way, the general populus is still mostly morons. Even with a higher literacy rate. Most of them seem to use it to read the National Enquirer and Hollywood based publications. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Rich Graves Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 13:56:09 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: greed and the internet Message-ID: <199701232156.NAA27696@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Internaut wrote: > > Will you send some references for Internet II and the government hubs? There is a www.internet2.edu -rich From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Alan Bostick Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:01:12 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip Message-ID: <199701240201.SAA03868@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain In the Jan. 20, 1997, issue of THE NEW YORKER, the "Comment", written by Malcolm Gladwell, makes a powerful arguement about the unintended consequences of the V-Chip, the programmable device to be included in next-generation television sets sold in the US that supposedly will allow parents to control their children's access to sex and violence on TV. Gladwell makes an analogy between V-Chipped TV content and air-conditioned cars in the New York City subway system in summertime: " . . . we need air-conditioners on subway cars because air-conditioners on subway cars have made stations so hot that subway cars need to be air-conditioned." Similarly, he argues, "the V-chip is likely to increase the amount of sex and violence on television, not decrease it" because when viewers can block offensive programming, there is far less pressure on broadcasters and cable operators to avoid offending. This is just the sort of thing that John Young is given to scanning and putting up on his Web site or sending out to people who send him email with FUN_nie subject lines. If I were him, I'd put it up. And, for the benefit of those people who don't think the V-Chip isn't in itself on-topic for cypherpunks, I might point out that Gladwell's argument applies equally well to mail filtering with procmail recipes -- or Sandy's and John's list moderation experiment. If the noise level on the unmoderated list jumps to even higher than we were seeing before the moderation began, that would provide observational support to Gladwell's argument. -- Alan Bostick | To achieve harmony in bad taste is the height mailto:abostick@netcom.com | of elegance. news:alt.grelb | Jean Genet http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~abostick From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: proff@suburbia.net Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:40:54 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Commerical applications (was: Development and validation (fwd) Message-ID: <199701230640.WAA06727@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >From terry@lambert.org Thu Jan 23 00:20:21 1997 Return-Path: Delivered-To: proff@suburbia.net Received: (qmail 11676 invoked from network); 23 Jan 1997 00:20:09 -0000 Received: from phaeton.artisoft.com (198.17.250.211) by suburbia.net with SMTP; 23 Jan 1997 00:20:09 -0000 Received: (from terry@localhost) by phaeton.artisoft.com (8.6.11/8.6.9) id RAA22488; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:04:17 -0700 From: Terry Lambert Message-Id: <199701230004.RAA22488@phaeton.artisoft.com> Subject: Re: Commerical applications (was: Development and validation To: proff@suburbia.net Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:04:17 -0700 (MST) Cc: nate@mt.sri.com, terry@lambert.org, chuckr@glue.umd.edu, hackers@freebsd.org In-Reply-To: <19970122141820.16633.qmail@suburbia.net> from "proff@suburbia.net" at Jan 23, 97 01:18:20 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] Content-Length: 6273 > > Terry Lambert writes: > > > > > A weighted democracy would be one open-ended growth solution, as > > > > > long as parametric changes could be made within the system. I have > > > > > suggested this before. A trivial napkin drawing version: > > > > > > I have doubts about such a system. How are the weights chosen? By core team fiat. It is they who will be giving up power, it is they who have the power to enforce initial disbursement. After that, it *should* be metastable. If it isn't, it can be reigned in. > - Should all weights be votable - dynamically adjusted according > to votes * current weights? This one: yes. > - Which is more stable? w1+w2+w3+w4=1 or w1*w2*w3*w4*w5=1? +, if we are talking probabilities applied to strange attractors. > - How a new weights created? Constitutionally, there must be a method for doing this within the system. Mostly, the weight values are the time rate accumulation vs. the spend rate on voting issues. If you are actively positive, you affect change; the stronger you feel about something, the more likely you are to code it (which every direction the strength of your feeling goes. The catch is that positive votes are inherently more valuable than negative votes, since to obstruct progress requires a number of votes equal to the outstanding proposals, but to move forward a proposal only requires a number of votes equal to the proposal. Blind obstructionism (and blind advocacy) are uneconomical. That's the point of having more than one vote to potentially spend on an issue, with potentially more issues than you can vote on all of them. You will have to pick you battles carefully if you want to avoid being lost in the noise. > - How does one prevent factional deal making? It won't, really, if there are places for deals to be made, and there are accurate vote tallys published (promoting last minute bid frenzies, auction-like behaviour). > - Should weights decline over time in the same manner as > an infinitely trainable adaptive neural network? There is a limit on the amount of weight you can throw around in a given time because of the high water mark on the number of tokens it's possible to build up on account. Again, you have to pick your battles or you will be lost in the noise. > What about retrospectivity? On the one hand you entrench a > pre-democratic feudal power structure and end up like Mandela's > South Africa; a constitutionally reformed non-racially discriminatory > capitalist society in which the blacks have all the votes, but > the whites have all the capital. On the other (FreeBSD) hand the > whites did all the work. In the abstract, if you are willing to do the work, you are more likely to throw three votes than one for a given topic. If you are just being obstructioninst, you will likely throw only one vote so that you can keep being obstructionist later. For reciprocity, it's possible to charge off percentages in the win/lose case to bias the power concentration: if your side wins, it costs you one less token then you voted, etc.. Again, initial bylaws are established through constitution provision: "we have the power that is being shared, therefore, these are the weights". > Certainly a very interesting social engineering experiment; there > is room here for long excursions into probability theory, game > theory, cryptographic voting protocols (extending to protocols > not traditionally seen as voting protocols such as Rabin's m/n > secret sharing scheme), all excellent paper fodder. Heh. I was thinking more in terms of its value as a cascade trigger to increasingly complex social organisms in the Internet implementation space. Representational democracies (republics, really) came about because of rate limits on communication. The US could not elect a president by popular vote because there were no methods of verification, and communication rates were limited by travel time. Therefore, the US has an Electoral College. But a side effect of this structure is a bias for bipartite seperation of interests, instead of seperation into as many interest groups as it takes to do the job of mapping the interest space. This bias is not removed because the bipartite interests have (and must continue to have) the power concentration. This leads to continued "wasted vote syndrome", where people vote for the lesser of two evils instead of voting their conscience... an effect of mass psychology. Similar pressures prevent the polling times from being changed to opening at 8am EST and closing at 8am EST to prevent early returns from earlier time zones influencing the outcome of elections before people in later time zones have even voted. For example, Ross Perot got almost 20% of the vote in the 1992 election, but 0% of the electors. He would still have lost, given the actual values. There is actually a case in US history where the winner of the electoral vote lost the popular vote... the president was not chosen by the people, but by the electors. > It would definitely attract a lot of welcome attention to FreeBSD. It would be worth one or more articles in WIRED, actually, as well as more scholarly sociology journals. Maybe even "Wall Street Journal" would run "Multinational Democratic State Declares Independence in Cyberspace" or a similar silly headline. > When viewed strictly as an experiment this idea has a lot > of merit. If it actually pans out, then well and good, if not, > then it could be used as some kind of Sawick poll. Yep. The reason I went weighted, by the way, was the volunteer nature of the project. In theory, number of vote tokens spent should be proportional to willingness to actually volunteer. As you point out, there could be feedback here as well: for instance, if a proposal passes, if it is completed, the tokens spent on the vote could be refunded to those who voted for it. If it dies on the vine, the tokens could be refunded to those who voted against it. Being right would give you more license to participate, and being wrong would not, etc.. Again, a matter for the initial bylaws. Regards, Terry Lambert terry@lambert.org --- Any opinions in this posting are my own and not those of my present or previous employers. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Steven L Baur Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:01:59 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: fingerd Message-ID: <199701240201.SAA03902@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain snow writes: >> > Couple of things you can do: >> > 2. Install a more secure "fingerd" such that it only >> > allows "finger `userid@node.domain`" instead of >> > "finger `@node.domain`". > cfingerd can be gotten from: cfingerd is not a safe program. It must run as root, and has some big problems. Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 18:34:43 +0200 (MET DST) From: Janos Farkas To: Administrador da Rede cc: linux-security@tarsier.cv.nrao.edu Subject: Re: Finger Doubt Message-ID: Howdy people! On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Administrador da Rede wrote: > I use the newest version of cfinger, setted to not allow general finger, just > specific ones. Does anyone knows how this person did that ? I hope I can > find out, otherwise, bye bye finger service. Badly. I have sent the author a letter, but never got any reply back (it's 3 months later now!), so I just take the opportunity to warn the public against its use. Excerpts from the source (1.2.3, older versions have been a bit more directly broken, now it has root privs only at the moments it shouldn't have.) "This daemon must be run as root!" [And unfortunately, does..] ... unlink ("/tmp/fslist"); ... sprintf(st, "%s | tail +2 >> /tmp/fslist", prog_config.finger_program); ... system(st); A similarly terrible one some lines later: system("cat /tmp/fslist | sort > /tmp/fslist.sort"); As it stands, it can allow any local user to destroy any file on the system, including partition tables on disks. Please someone correct me if I am wrong, I tried this with cfingerd-1.2.2 and it allowed me to do bad things. I was a bit disappointed by the lack of any reply from the author, so I think I am now justified to tell that if anyone installed cfingerd (about 1.1 or later) on his system, disable it IMMEDIATELY, until at least the author clarifies this bug in a new version. The current version is BAD. However if you just need a finger daemon, you may take a look at xfingerd, at ftp://ftp.banki.hu:/pub/xfingerd/xfingerd-0.1.tar.gz which is the one I wrote when I got desperate about cfingerd. (If you take a look at its date stamp, you can see that cfingerd is long broken..) I too can't garantee that it's good for you, but it at least doesn't require to be run as root, which is why I started being against cfingerd. I hope this note finds everyone concerned. Janos -- steve@miranova.com baur Unsolicited commercial e-mail will be billed at $250/message. Real men aren't afraid to use chains on icy roads. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Eric Cordian Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:37:12 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: [Noise] From The Onion Message-ID: <199701240137.RAA03221@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > SATAN TO REVISE BAR CODE SYSTEM [snip] Not to be outdone, Satan's major competitor, Choronzon, Chief Demonic Officer and only resident of the accursed 10th Aether of the Enochian System, today announced his own plans for a system to label his mortal followers and regulate their business transactions. "Stamping numbers on the foreheads and hands of individuals is primitive technology," Choronzon explained, snapping his barbed tail, and emitting a sulphurous plume. "We are pleased to announce our plans to identify our followers using digital watermarking technology licensed from RSA Data Security, Inc." Implementation of the scheme, which will involve the encoding of a subtle full-body pattern into each individual by surface ablation with high powered eximer lasers, will be managed by Choronzon's Supreme Legate to the Material World, Jim Bidzos. -- Eric Michael Cordian 0+ O:.T:.O:. Mathematical Munitions Division "Do What Thou Wilt Shall Be The Whole Of The Law" From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Asgaard Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 12:04:14 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) Message-ID: <199701232004.MAA24813@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote: >The Web does not equal the Internet, straw man argument. A semantic comment: We here all know that this is right but it's obvious that the language is sliding towards Internet = Web. Most people using tcp/ip email don't think about this as using the Internet. Another list I'm on has recently set up a Hypermail site on the Web, mingling transparently with the list, for those who are overwhelmed by 100 posts a day (it's a proffessional list unrelated to computers per se). When people here about it they say: 'Wow, I didn't know you had access to the list on the Internet too!' It's treated the same on television, in the US as well as here in Sweden, Internet = Web and nothing else. It will be hard for us who have been around for a while, and to fresh computer litterates who know something of what's behind the screen, to relearn the use of the term 'Internet'. But we will eventually have to accept it or become 'dinosaurs', that's the way language evolution works. Asgaard From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:55:54 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) Message-ID: <199701240155.RAA03742@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:59:34 +0100 (MET) > From: Asgaard > Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) > > >The Web does not equal the Internet, straw man argument. > > A semantic comment: > > We here all know that this is right but it's obvious that > the language is sliding towards Internet = Web. Most people Typical modern American attitude, getting it right is too much work so let's lower the benchmark so anyone can be 'right'. You'll be supporting Ebonics next. Blah. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage@ssz.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 18:00:43 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) Message-ID: <199701240200.SAA03843@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Forwarded message: > Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 02:58:41 -0800 > From: Toto > Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) > > > If the people in those counties want to give away their freedom that > > is their business (and right), not mine, yours, or this countries unless > > there is evidence they are trying to take their views and impose them here. > > Right. And if someone 'chooses' to give their money to a thief with > a gun, then it is not the business of other people, or the police. > I would hate to interfere with someones 'right' to get robbed, > raped, or murdered. This is a perfect example of why we disagree. You feel society has the same responsibilities as an individual, I don't. Countries and societies are a tightly linked concept because man is a social animal. Trying to equate this to an individual who chooses to ignore the moral, ethical, and legal standards of their society is a non-sequiter. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage@ssz.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: John Young Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:38:52 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: GOO_gol Message-ID: <199701240138.RAA03280@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Richard Crandall, NeXT scientist, writes eloquently on large numbers in February SciAm. He cites cryptographic strength as one result of research on the gargantuan googol and googolplex. He reviews current work on sieve techniques for factorization -- Quadratic, Number Field, Elliptic Curve Method and others -- as well as advanced algorithms. And exclaims: Blaine Garst, Doug Mitchell, Avadis Tevanian, Jr., and I implemented at NeXT what is one of the strongest -- if not the strongest -- encryption schemes available today, based on Mersenne primes. This patented scheme, termed Fast Elliptic Encryption (FEE), uses the algebra of elliptic curves, and it is very fast. ----- GOO_gol Thanks to PJP for pointing. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: DataETRsch@aol.com Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:42:38 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before.... Message-ID: <199701240642.WAA12217@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain {If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before, we're extremely sorry.} {UDCM's web site may have been under construction during the time you visited.} {UDCM's web site has finished undergoing its changes and will operate correctly.} {UDCM V2.0 has been extensively modified from its previous variation.} {Digital signaturing and public key cryptosystem capabilities have been added.} {UDCM's DS and PKCS techniques do NOT make use of conventional PN factoring.} {UDCM's source code is currently unavailable. PLEASE DO NOT REQUEST IT.} {UDCM's on-line help documentation has also been extensively modified.} {This advertisement has also been modified.} Hello, Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP, Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning. UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)... o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography. o Contains more than 150 procedures and functions. o Is a very cost-effective size of only 60 kilobytes. o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm. o Allows encryption keys as large as 2048 bits. o Includes 18 sub-algorithms. o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files. o Allows multiple encryption layer levels. o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys. o Includes time and date locking features. o Includes file specific unique encryption features. o Includes file authentication guard features. o Includes digital signaturing capabilities. o Implements the public key cryptosystem method of security. o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features. UDCM, being a Windows DLL module, can be accessed through programs developed with popular application and database programming languages and environments such as: C, C++, Visual Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo Pascal, dBase, Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0. To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to: http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html. I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you very much for your time. Sincerely, Jeremy K.Yu-Ramos President DataET Research Data Engineering Technologies From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: ichudov@algebra.com Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:42:44 -0800 (PST) To: DataETRsch@aol.com Subject: Re: If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before.... Message-ID: <199701240642.WAA12223@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Mr. Ramos, You promised to release the algorithm of your program as well as crypto-relevant source code. You promised to do it atfer a month, and the time has come. We are eagerly awaiting the promised code. Thank you so much for your openness. igor DataETRsch@aol.com wrote: > > {If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before, we're extremely sorry.} > {UDCM's web site may have been under construction during the time you > visited.} > {UDCM's web site has finished undergoing its changes and will operate > correctly.} > {UDCM V2.0 has been extensively modified from its previous variation.} > {Digital signaturing and public key cryptosystem capabilities have been > added.} > {UDCM's DS and PKCS techniques do NOT make use of conventional PN factoring.} > {UDCM's source code is currently unavailable. PLEASE DO NOT REQUEST IT.} > {UDCM's on-line help documentation has also been extensively modified.} > {This advertisement has also been modified.} > > Hello, > > Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data > Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that > DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal > Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely > advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP, > Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning. > > UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)... > > o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography. > o Contains more than 150 procedures and functions. > o Is a very cost-effective size of only 60 kilobytes. > o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm. > o Allows encryption keys as large as 2048 bits. > o Includes 18 sub-algorithms. > o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files. > o Allows multiple encryption layer levels. > o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys. > o Includes time and date locking features. > o Includes file specific unique encryption features. > o Includes file authentication guard features. > o Includes digital signaturing capabilities. > o Implements the public key cryptosystem method of security. > o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features. > > UDCM, being a Windows DLL module, can be accessed through programs developed > with popular application and database programming languages and environments > such as: C, C++, Visual Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo > Pascal, dBase, Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. > > DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0. > > To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to: > http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html. > > I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you > very much for your time. > > Sincerely, > > Jeremy K.Yu-Ramos > President > DataET Research > Data Engineering Technologies > - Igor. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Mike Reiter Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:42:46 -0800 (PST) To: reiter@research.att.com Subject: 4th ACM Conference on Computer and Communications Security Message-ID: <199701240642.WAA12224@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain *** EARLY REGISTRATION DISCOUNT ENDS JANUARY 31 *** Fourth ACM Conference on Computer and Communications Security (Preliminary Technical Program) Zurich, Switzerland April 1-4, 1997 Sponsored by ACM SIGSAC For more information, including registration and hotel information, see: http://www.zurich.ibm.ch/pub/Other/ACMsec/index.html ================ TUESDAY, APRIL 1 ================ 4 half-day tutorials in two parallel tracks: Theory Track Practice Track Morning Cryptography CERT and Practical Network Security Jim Massey, Ueli Maurer Tom Longstaff (ETH Zurich) (Software Engineering Institute) lunch Afternoon Internet Security Info-Wars Refik Molva Paul Karger (Eurecom) (IBM TJ Watson) ================== WEDNESDAY, APRIL 2 ================== 09:00-09:30 Introduction and Opening Comments Richard Graveman (Bellcore) Phil Janson (IBM Zurich Lab) Li Gong (JavaSoft) Clifford Neuman (Univ. of Southern California) 09:30-10:30 Invited talk 1: To Be Announced 10:30-11:00 Coffee Break 11:00-12:00 Session 1: Fair Exchange of Information Chair: Philippe Janson (IBM Zurich Lab) * Fair Exchange with a Semi-Trusted Third Party Matthew Franklin, Mike Reiter (AT&T Research) * Optimistic Protocols for Fair Exchange N. Asokan, Matthias Schunter, Michael Waidner (IBM Zurich Lab and Univ. Dortmund) 12:00-14:00 Lunch 14:00-15:30 Session 2: Language and System Security Chair: Michael Waidner (IBM Zurich Lab) * Static Typing with Dynamic Linking Drew Dean (Princeton University) * Secure Digital Names Scott Stornetta, Stuart Haber (Surety Technologies) * A Calculus for Cryptographic Protocols: The Spi Calculus Martin Abadi, Andrew D. Gordon (DEC SRC and Cambridge) 15:30-16:00 Coffee Break 16:00-17:30 Panel 1: Programming Languages as a Basis for Security Chair: Drew Dean (Princeton) Panelists: To Be Announced Welcome Cocktail ================= THURSDAY, APRIL 3 ================= 09:00-10:30 Session 3: Authentication Chair: Ravi Sandhu (George Mason Univ.) * Authentication via Keystroke Dynamics Fabian Monrose, Avi Rubin (New York Univ. and Bellcore) * Path Independence for Authentication in Large-Scale Systems Mike Reiter, Stuart Stubblebine (AT&T Research) * Proactive Password Checking with Decision Trees Francesco Bergadano, Bruno Crispo, Giancarlo Ruffo (Univ. of Turin) 10:30-11:00 Coffee Break 11:00-12:00 Invited talk 2: To Be Announced 12:00-14:00 Lunch 14:00-15:30 Session 4: Signatures and Escrow Chair: Martin Abadi (DEC SRC) * Verifiable Partial Key Escrow Mihir Bellare, Shafi Goldwasser (UC San Diego and MIT) * New Blind Signatures Equivalent to Factorisation David Pointcheval, Jacques Stern (ENS/DMI, France) * Proactive Public-Key and Signature Schemes Markus Jakobsson, Stanislaw Jarecki, Amir Herzberg, Hugo Krawczyk, Moti Yung (UC San Diego, MIT, IBM Haifa Lab, IBM TJ Watson, and Bankers Trust) 15:30-16:00 Coffee Break 16:00-17:30 Panel 2: Persistance and Longevity of Digital Signatures Chair: Gene Tsudik (USC/ISI) Panelists: To Be Announced Banquet Dinner =============== FRIDAY, APRIL 4 =============== 09:00-10:30 Session 5: Commerce and Commercial Security Chair: Jacques Stern (ENS/DMI, France) * A New On-Line Cash Check Scheme Robert H. Deng, Yongfei Han, Albert B. Jeng, Teow-Hin Ngair (National University of Singapore) * Conditional Purchase Orders John Kelsey, Bruce Schneier (Counterpane Systems) * The Specification and Implementation of 'Commercial' Security Requirements including Dynamic Segregation of Duties Simon Foley (University College, Cork, Ireland) 10:30-11:00 Coffee Break 11:00-12:30 Session 6: Cryptography Chair: Mike Reiter (AT&T Research) * On the Importance of Securing Your Bins: The Garbage-Man-in-the-Middle Attack Marc Joye, Jean-Jacques Quisquater (Univ. Louvain) * Improved Security Bounds for Pseudorandom Permutations Jacques Patarin (Bull) * Asymmetric Fingerprinting for Larger Collusions Birgit Pfitzmann, Michael Waidner (Univ. Hildesheim and IBM Zurich Lab) 12:30 Conference Adjourns From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:41:51 -0800 (PST) To: "William H. Geiger III" Subject: Re: No Dimitri?? Message-ID: <199701240641.WAA12137@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain "William H. Geiger III" writes: > I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple of > days. > > I am assuming that this means that the list moderation has now started? Yes - anything I say is junked irrespective of content. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Bill Campbell Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:42:27 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Commerce Sec. Hearings and Encryption Message-ID: <199701240642.WAA12178@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain toto@sk.sympatico.ca wrote: > Bill Campbell wrote: > > > > I have been watching the confirmation hearings for William Daley, > > and I was amazed at the number of references in the questioning > > to encryption. I have been watching confirmation hearings for a long > > time and have never noticed this much attention being placed on such > > a (formerly?) obscure topic. > > It certainly looks like someone is gearing up for a battle in regard > to cryto. > I find it very interesting that there would be a grand battle over > 'exporting' what is already freely available overseas (and always > will be, despite the export laws). This "freely available overseas" concept is a bit overstated. France and other countries are beginning to come down hard on encryption. (Also note the post from the guy in New Zealand on the hassles exporting from his country.) The US now has a "Crypto Ambassador" roaming the world, and I *don't* think he is encouraging an open common encryption standard. > I suppose that a cynic might > be led to believe that perhaps the anti-export champions' agenda > might be to make more convenient for the average joe to just > give in and accept weak, government approved crypto. Cynic or realist, you make the call. The average Joe doesn't even know *why* he needs encryption...at least not yet. =Bill= From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Sandy Sandfort Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 05:59:59 -0800 (PST) To: ichudov@algebra.com Subject: Re: Airport security [no such thing] Message-ID: <199701241359.FAA24956@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Thu, 23 Jan 1997 ichudov@algebra.com wrote: > Is it really true that my response was tossed out as flames? a) NO posts have been "tossed out." Your response was sorted into the "flames" list--not because it flamed directly, but because it was part of the threat started by Dimitri in which he engaged in flaming. b) While I realize this is a judgment call that others might dispute, I don't think it makes much sense to post to the moderated list only the parts of threads that are not flamish. I would rather keep thread intact on one list or the other. There are exceptions. I put one of Dimitri's post on this thread into the moderated list because the point he made did not require particular knowledge of the entire thread and had non-inflamatory relevance. > It was crypto-relevant. Perhaps, but crypto-relevance is NOT the criterion by which I am moderating the list. I am sort on the basis of (a) emotional, non-relevant personal attacks on list members, and (b) spam. I believe (and so far the postings have borne me out) that in an atmosphere of civil, reasoned discourse, the relevance issue will largely take care of itself. By the way, contrary to what Dimitri has alleged, I have posted every message from him in which he was able to restrain himself with regard to gratuitous insults and/or spam. In other words, the set of Dimitri posts that have appeared on the moderated list is not the null set. By the way number two, this response will be posted to the flames list and NOT the moderated list. Even though I have not flamed anyone, two things keep it off the moderated list: (1) my policy about keeping thread on the same list where possible (see above), and (2) basic precepts of fairness. Though Dimitri has stated-- without a scintilla of evidence--that my moderation policy would be used to attack him and not give him the opportunity or forum to defend himself, I am keeping ALL personal attacks off the moderated list. Those who are subscribed to the "flam" postings can see numerous unkind posts about Dimitri that I have not allowed on the moderated list. That policy applies to me just as much as to anyone else. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "E. Allen Smith" Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:42:41 -0800 (PST) To: abostick@netcom.com Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip Message-ID: <199701240642.WAA12222@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain From: IN%"abostick@netcom.com" "Alan Bostick" 23-JAN-1997 23:09:54.72 >In the Jan. 20, 1997, issue of THE NEW YORKER, the "Comment", written by >Malcolm Gladwell, makes a powerful arguement about the unintended >consequences of the V-Chip, the programmable device to be included in >next-generation television sets sold in the US that supposedly will >allow parents to control their children's access to sex and violence on >TV. >Gladwell makes an analogy between V-Chipped TV content and >air-conditioned cars in the New York City subway system in summertime: >" . . . we need air-conditioners on subway cars because air-conditioners >on subway cars have made stations so hot that subway cars need to be >air-conditioned." Similarly, he argues, "the V-chip is likely to >increase the amount of sex and violence on television, not decrease it" >because when viewers can block offensive programming, there is far less >pressure on broadcasters and cable operators to avoid offending. Personally, I'd view this as a positive development. The puritanical types will be busily still protesting it, but without so many parents who (falsely) believe their children will be harmed by exposure to sex, thus dividing their efforts. Normally one would think that advertisers et al might give in to a small number... but advertisers particularly suceptible to this won't be sponsoring anything but G-rated shows anyway. (Of course, I view the V-chip itself as a bad thing, but if it has an outcome opposite in at least _some_ ways to the one intended by the neo-puritans, I can see the silver lining.) >And, for the benefit of those people who don't think the V-Chip isn't in >itself on-topic for cypherpunks, I might point out that Gladwell's >argument applies equally well to mail filtering with procmail recipes -- >or Sandy's and John's list moderation experiment. If the noise level on >the unmoderated list jumps to even higher than we were seeing before >the moderation began, that would provide observational support to >Gladwell's argument. An interesting question... although I'd point out that the degree of social pressure against spamming et al appears to be ineffective. The herd-like public (referring to the parents with their foolish fears and anyone else brainwashed into believing the puritans/fundamentalists) can put pressure on with their buying patterns... as yet such a market system is lacking in mailing lists (except for putting people on filter lists, which probably exacerbates the problem). In other words, there is no particular reason for the spammers et al to desist even if people _are_ receiving their email. -Allen From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: fuck you Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 23:12:16 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199701240712.XAA13326@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain If anyone has any text files on the following topics please send them. I have many files if any one else needs them. PGP Making decryption tools Anarchy Satan Anything underground From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Greg Broiles Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:12:34 -0800 (PST) To: Alan Bostick Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip Message-ID: <199701241412.GAA25303@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 04:57 PM 1/23/97 -0800, Alan Bostick wrote: >In the Jan. 20, 1997, issue of THE NEW YORKER, the "Comment", written by >Malcolm Gladwell, makes a powerful arguement about the unintended >consequences of the V-Chip, the programmable device to be included in >next-generation television sets sold in the US that supposedly will >allow parents to control their children's access to sex and violence on >TV. While I think it's always useful to consider unintended (or otherwise unexpected) consequences, Gladwell's argument sent a shiver down my spine with its shameless paternalism. This bit (from roughly the middle of his piece) is what I found creepiest: "According to one recent study, somewhere between twenty and twenty-seven per cent of the parents of four-to six-year-olds never restrict their children's viewing hours, never decide what programs they can watch, never change the channel when something objectionable comes on, and never forbid the watching of certain programs. It has apparently never occurred to these parents that television can be a bad influence, and it strains credulity to think that the advent of the V-chip is going to wake them up. Yet their families - mainly lower-income, ill-educated - are the very ones most in need of protection from television violence. Here is a rearranging effect with a vengeance: not only does the V-chip make television worse, it makes television worse precisely for those already most vulnerable to its excesses." I understood Gladwell's point to be, in essence, that the V-chip will allow TV producers to generate higher levels of morally impure content which he fears will pollute the minds of poor children because their parents are too stupid to protect them from the harmful content and too poor to buy new televisions which will include V-chips. While I think 95% of broadcast TV is crap which isn't worth the time expended watching it, even reading arguments like "poor people should be protected from harmful ideas they're too stupid (or too poorly educated) to avoid and too poor to purchase protection from" makes me feel dirty. I don't think Gladwell is, in any meaningful way, an opponent of government control of speech/expression - he's just an opponent of inefficient or optional forms of government control of speech/expression. He's a reasonable writer, but he's chosen to use his powers for evil instead of for good. (Some of his work is available on the web; apparently he once worked as a reporter for the Washington Post and is now on the staff of the New Yorker.) -- Greg Broiles | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell: gbroiles@netbox.com | http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto. | From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:01:57 -0800 (PST) To: Bill Campbell Subject: Re: Commerce Sec. Hearings and Encryption Message-ID: <199701241401.GAA25011@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Bill Campbell wrote: > > toto@sk.sympatico.ca wrote: > > Bill Campbell wrote: > This "freely available overseas" concept is a bit overstated. > France and other countries are beginning to come down hard > on encryption. True. Perhaps I should have said "freely available, but it might cost you more than you expect." > Cynic or realist, you make the call. The average Joe > doesn't even know *why* he needs encryption...at least > not yet. The average joe is quickly becoming aware of the issue of data security (and therefore being exposed to the 'concept' of encryption as something that will impact his life). Of course, this is coming about as a result of commercial pressures to make him feel safe about handing over his Visa number, etc. To me, this indicates that this is the opportune time to inject a deeper level of understanding into the issue of crypto, at a time when the average joe has his attention directed toward the crypto arena. Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: ichudov@algebra.com Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 05:59:14 -0800 (PST) To: Cypherpunks Subject: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list Message-ID: <199701241359.FAA24927@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I would like to start a thread to discuss the moderation and rejection policy. My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames mailing list. You can receive a copy of my article by an email request. The explanation that Sandy Sandfort gave me mentioned that he rejected my message because it continued a thread where Sandy noticed instances of "flaming". Note that my message was free of any flames, including its quoted part. Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy. I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy the current readership. - Igor. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 05:58:43 -0800 (PST) To: Jim Choate Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) Message-ID: <199701241358.FAA24907@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Jim Choate wrote: > Typical modern American attitude, getting it right is too much work so let's > lower the benchmark so anyone can be 'right'. Are you referring to the CypherPunks 'censored' list? Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 05:57:40 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip Message-ID: <199701241357.FAA24866@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > From: IN%"abostick@netcom.com" "Alan Bostick" 23-JAN-1997 23:09:54.72 > > >In the Jan. 20, 1997, issue of THE NEW YORKER, the "Comment", written by > >Malcolm Gladwell, makes a powerful arguement about the unintended > >consequences of the V-Chip I noticed that when my nephews buy video games, the first ones they check out are the ones plastered with the 'protective' ratings-symbols that proclaim that the game is the 'baddest of the bad' in terms of violence, etc. Thanks to the violence-rating system, they no longer have to waste time checking out 'dweeb' programs that contain absolutely no blood and gore. Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:12:32 -0800 (PST) To: Krenn Subject: Re: If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before... Message-ID: <199701241412.GAA25302@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Krenn wrote: > Oh most certainly! I'm gonna run out and implement EVERYTHING in UDCM!! > Thanks man!! Yours is the post these guys have been waiting for. All of those other CypherPunks just 'flamed' them by asking technical questions about their products. Who knows, they may make you their marketing manager. Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:11:25 -0800 (PST) To: Igor Chudov Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list Message-ID: <199701241411.GAA25271@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks > on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous > remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames > mailing list. I have noticed that the 'sorting' of messages seems to be based as much on personality as upon content. > The explanation that Sandy Sandfort gave me mentioned that he rejected > my message because it continued a thread where Sandy noticed instances > of "flaming". Note that my message was free of any flames, including > its quoted part. The standard of what constitutes a 'flame' seems to rest very much upon whom a comment is directed at, or merely 'vaguely toward'. There have been more than a few postings stronly lambasting various generic grouping of individuals which have passed without censoring. Your post, however, included Dr. Dimitri's vague reference to a homosexual 'elite'. While it was directed toward no one in particular, I suppose one could 'infer', from his past postings, that it referred to certain individuals, or a group of individuals. So it would seem that, in quoting the posts of others, one must take into consideration what various readers may infer from their previous posts. > Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the > criterion by which he moderates this list. This was more than obvious to anyone who cared to cast an objective eye on the process, but their input was pooh-paah'd by the 'washed masses'. > I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy > the current readership. Like all of the 'opinions' that were expressed prior to the censorship of the list? I haven't seen any indication that these opinions were given the slightest consideration. This is not the readership's list. It is a private individual's list. My view of Sandy's moderation is that it is rather willy-nilly, and not done particularly objectively. There have been personal insults directed toward various individuals, including myself, which seem not to have been considered 'flames', while there are more than a few posts which, even on the closest of inspection, I can see no reason for dumping the the 'flame-crapper', other than the fact that they are somewhat associated to the 'unclean' list members. The moderation, at best, seems to encourage 'snide' commentary meant to be ill-disguised cheap-shots. I would much rather have list members taking strong, clean shots at their 'targets', than to be subjected to two-faced people talking out of the side of their mouths. In short, I don't see the moderation as being 'fair', and I don't think it was ever meant to be. I don't have a problem with this, since it's a private list, and, as far as I am concerned, the list-owner can censor it, or have it censored, any way he or she sees fit. I would like to point out, however, that anyone who has had their posts 'sorted' into the 'flames list' is now a 'known flamer', as evidenced by the fact that their post has been designated a 'flame' on a list run by a champion of free speech on the electronic frontier. It is obvious that some of the more intuitively intelligent list members are aware of this, as is indicated by the nervous fear with which they 'explain why' their post is crypto-relevant. Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:10:44 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list Message-ID: <199701241410.GAA25221@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes: > I would like to start a thread to discuss the moderation and rejection > policy. I predict that Sandy won't allow any posts on the censored list that question his moderation poilicy - only the unanymous praises. > My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks > on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous > remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames > mailing list. A dishonorable act. > You can receive a copy of my article by an email request. Perhaps you want to start putting up rejected articles on a Web page? > The explanation that Sandy Sandfort gave me mentioned that he rejected > my message because it continued a thread where Sandy noticed instances > of "flaming". Note that my message was free of any flames, including > its quoted part. That's correct. > Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the > criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy. Sandy's personal likes and dislikes of certain posters are the criterion. > I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy > the current readership. You won't be allowed to on this censored mailing list. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 08:10:45 -0800 (PST) To: "Attila T. Hun" Subject: Re: seeds of our own destruction Message-ID: <199701241610.IAA28244@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Attila T. Hun wrote: > at 01:13 AM, Kevin Stephenson said: > +You wrote some very interesting articles. It is the UN. > if you want a real scare, read the UN "world constitution" on > human rights and privacy --their idea of a Bill of Rights. It just > happens that it is virtually word for word equivalent to the > mainland Chinese "rights" -in other words: rights as long as they > are consistent with the aims of the state (UN) and the security > needs of the state at the given moment. [snip] > +Read Revelations (if you haven't). > the best general reference on symbology, at least of what I > have seen so far: Opening the Seven Seals (The Visions of John the Revelator) > Richard D. Draper, Desert Books, Salt Lake City, ISBN 087579-547-1, SKU 2142298 Wendy Wallace (I think) has written something about the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse, and they've been running excerpts in Paranoia magazine. I really like Paranoia mag, check it out. If you like heavy-duty scary symbology writing (can't vouch for the exact content), check out Texe Marrs who has a recent book on the subject (can't remember the title, but pictures of the symbols on the cover, in paperback). From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:10:43 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: No Dimitri?? Message-ID: <199701241410.GAA25218@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" writes: > "William H. Geiger III" writes: > > > I have noticed that there has not been any post from Dimitri in a couple of > > days. > > > > I am assuming that this means that the list moderation has now started? > > Yes - anything I say is junked irrespective of content. I see that Moderator Sandfort has allowed this article through (to prove me wrong) but has tossed all my other articles into cypherpunks-flames. Most of them were crypto-relevant, on-topic, and contained no flames. I bet he's going to toss this one too. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:14:13 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Homosexuals Message-ID: <199701241414.GAA25350@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain fuck you writes in the censored list: > If anyone has any text files on the following topics please send them. ... > Anything underground Anything? My good friend TRRCJ3 reports from San Francisco that the city is much nicer now that so many homosexuals are 6 feet under. Thank God for AIDS. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Steven M Orrin Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:19:42 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: 2 Questions Message-ID: <199701241819.KAA02578@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hey guys, 2 quick questions: Are there any known hacks or weaknesses in S/Key? Has Anyone heard of a new product called SecureWin from Cipher Logics Corp. It looks like vaporware but is a little more sophisticated than the usual product spams (like IPG, POTP, Encrypt-it, WinKrypt etc.) [I checked there web page some interesting fuctions, , No software available yet and Phone numbers are either busy or not in service, go figure] thanks Steveo From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Krenn Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 05:59:44 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before... Message-ID: <199701241359.FAA24942@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > {If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before, we're extremely sorry.} > {UDCM's web site may have been under construction during the time you > visited.} > {UDCM's web site has finished undergoing its changes and will operate > correctly.} > {UDCM V2.0 has been extensively modified from its previous variation.} > {Digital signaturing and public key cryptosystem capabilities have been > added.} > {UDCM's DS and PKCS techniques do NOT make use of conventional PN factoring.} > {UDCM's source code is currently unavailable. PLEASE DO NOT REQUEST IT.} > {UDCM's on-line help documentation has also been extensively modified.} > {This advertisement has also been modified.} Well halellujah. > Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data > Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that > DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal > Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely > advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP, > Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning. > > UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)... OH! OF COURSE! IMDMP! COOL!! > > o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography. > o Contains more than 150 procedures and functions. WOW!! 150!!! > o Is a very cost-effective size of only 60 kilobytes. > o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm. Of course, who doesn't?! > o Allows encryption keys as large as 2048 bits. > o Includes 18 sub-algorithms. 18?! HOLY COW!! > o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files. What a breakthrough! Astounding!! > o Allows multiple encryption layer levels. > o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys. Of course not, it's IMDMP!! > o Includes time and date locking features. > o Includes file specific unique encryption features. Specific unique encryption features!! NO WAY!! COOL!!! > o Includes file authentication guard features. > o Includes digital signaturing capabilities. > o Implements the public key cryptosystem method of security. Of course, everyone knows the public key cryptosystem method is the best! Excellent! > o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features. > > UDCM, being a Windows DLL module, can be accessed through programs developed > with popular application and database programming languages and environments > such as: C, C++, Visual Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo > Pascal, dBase, Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. > > DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0. Hey, v2.0, neat name, where'd you come up with it?! > > To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to: > http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html. AOL!! Oh YES! Cool! > > I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you > very much for your time. Oh most certainly! I'm gonna run out and implement EVERYTHING in UDCM!! Thanks man!! -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMuhyVUnqfwPpt/QVAQFM4wQAymizJEI/F5SFcWILNfGNoIsxxYza6Bfo yadEF9BnlcXujq0ZFZiRv7SddXjTS5TgVZLutZdEIx/NYPESkH7MXh18CyI/EXo6 NSyAiE0pFFRIrAgV4FWVVS9jsTWKucfI7NbWKSLEWTK8e6fdywAlXzlvbPT+1v6C b4vWK4akrBs= =74mf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Mullen, Patrick Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:13:06 -0800 (PST) To: "'DataETRsch@aol.com> Subject: RE: If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before.... Message-ID: <199701241413.GAA25332@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >From: DataETRsch@aol.com[SMTP:DataETRsch@aol.com] >o Includes time and date locking features. How do you implement this feature? Where is the time/date information stored? Is this in that header you were talking about before? Is there some method which is designed to thwart simply changing the CMOS time? Thanks! ~ Patrick >---------- >From: DataETRsch@aol.com[SMTP:DataETRsch@aol.com] >Sent: Thursday, January 23, 1997 9:35 PM >To: cypherpunks@toad.com >Subject: If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before.... > >{If you were unable to download UDCM V2.0 before, we're extremely sorry.} >{UDCM's web site may have been under construction during the time you >visited.} >{UDCM's web site has finished undergoing its changes and will operate >correctly.} >{UDCM V2.0 has been extensively modified from its previous variation.} >{Digital signaturing and public key cryptosystem capabilities have been >added.} >{UDCM's DS and PKCS techniques do NOT make use of conventional PN factoring.} >{UDCM's source code is currently unavailable. PLEASE DO NOT REQUEST IT.} >{UDCM's on-line help documentation has also been extensively modified.} >{This advertisement has also been modified.} > >Hello, > >Greetings! I am Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos, president of DataET Research, Data >Engineering Technologies. I am sending you this message to let you know that >DataET Research has recently initiated the distribution of UDCM, Universal >Data Cryptography Module. UDCM implements a revolutionarily new, extremely >advanced and sophisticated, digital data encryption algorithm named IMDMP, >Integrated Mathematical Data Manipulation and Positioning. > >UDCM (the IMDMP algorithm)... > >o Is a royalty-free Windows DLL module featuring advanced cryptography. >o Contains more than 150 procedures and functions. >o Is a very cost-effective size of only 60 kilobytes. >o Implements the IMDMP encryption algorithm. >o Allows encryption keys as large as 2048 bits. >o Includes 18 sub-algorithms. >o Processes all forms of binary and ASCII files. >o Allows multiple encryption layer levels. >o Has absolutely no back-doors or magical keys. >o Includes time and date locking features. >o Includes file specific unique encryption features. >o Includes file authentication guard features. >o Includes digital signaturing capabilities. >o Implements the public key cryptosystem method of security. >o Includes data importance and sensitivity stamping features. > >UDCM, being a Windows DLL module, can be accessed through programs developed >with popular application and database programming languages and environments >such as: C, C++, Visual Basic, PowerBuilder, Delphi, OOP Pascal, Turbo >Pascal, dBase, Paradox, Access, Sybase, Oracle, etc. > >DataET Research has released a shareware version of UDCM named UDCM V2.0. > >To download UDCM V2.0 for free, please go to: >http://members.aol.com/dataetrsch/udcm.html. > >I hope you will consider applying UDCM in the software you develop. Thank-you >very much for your time. > >Sincerely, > >Jeremy K.Yu-Ramos >President >DataET Research >Data Engineering Technologies > > From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: ichudov@algebra.com Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 08:10:47 -0800 (PST) To: Peter M Allan Subject: Re: fingerd Message-ID: <199701241610.IAA28245@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Peter M Allan wrote: > > These messages have been sent about fingerd. > My preference for fiddling with remote fingers is to > leave fingerd as supplied by the vendor (run by "nobody") and > replace the finger program itself. It can be made to recognise > when it is being run by "nobody" and behave differently > from when run by another user. > > Source at the end of this file. (Bashed out fairly quickly > starting from a utmp-eraser I made for a luser who wouldn't > tolerate wall messages from shutdown.) > > I have (among other things) an extension to TCP-wrappers > (a new hosts_access.c file), and a prog to find disk space wasted by duplicated files. > (mail me with Subject: "send goodies" for these.) > /* > * > * compile and test myfinger > * > * cc -C -o myfinger myfinger.c > * > * > * (assuming the standard finger is /usr/ucb/finger) > * cp /usr/ucb/finger /usr/ucb/finger.real > * cp myfinger /usr/ucb/finger > * > * > * (if using TCP wrapper reverse-fingers, make them NOT nobody, > * but another id such as nobody2.) > * > * I disclaim any disasters........ > * > */ > > /* > * > * my finger program - local only, to be less informative than /usr/ucb/finger > * > */ > > > #undef _utmp_h > #define TRUE 1 > #define FALSE 0 > #define FAKE 1 > #define WIPE 2 > #define UTMP "/etc/utmp" > > > #include > #include > #include "utmp.h" > #include > > main(argc, argv, env) > int argc; > char **argv; > char **env; > { > int i, listed; > struct passwd *pwent; > > if (argc < 1) > exit(0); /* beat sneaks */ argc is never less than one. > /* If run by "nobody" (uid=65534) assume this is a remote finger */ > /* otherwise run the standard finger command */ > if (65534!=getuid()) { > execv("/usr/ucb/finger.real", argv); > /** if we get here exec failed, so we default to my finger **/ igor From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Duncan Frissell Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 07:55:37 -0800 (PST) To: Alan Bostick Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip Message-ID: <199701241555.HAA27671@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 08:23 AM 1/24/97 -0500, Alan Bostick wrote: >Gladwell makes an analogy between V-Chipped TV content and >air-conditioned cars in the New York City subway system in summertime: >" . . . we need air-conditioners on subway cars because air-conditioners >on subway cars have made stations so hot that subway cars need to be >air-conditioned." Great analogy except that it's wrong. Subway tunnels were hot before the cars ever had air conditioning. The traditional method of controlling the amount of power delivered to an electric traction motor was to run the juice through a resistor array. As the motorman moved the controller up and down, the current would pass through fewer and more banks on the grid of resistors and the amount delivered to the motors would change. Well you might guess that at 600 V DC and I don't know how many Watts, those resistor grids had to dump a lot of heat. They were/are located on the tops or bottoms of cars and are quite apparent when the cars pass you on a winter morning. DCF -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQCVAgUBMujKnYVO4r4sgSPhAQHgmAQAh82IvjwPXFdDchT1JvOuwf0pHGyO1xzY FsuPo2ig696dnWfXEyRhAcCvK6MKpXyaXPwtsPvJD6o8VUY2kU9UB5oddPBG7Q65 KAEwF/CBAtk3qyGmbfsd1ax65vjSkqm/+D675g/kHjAgOfaNFoRdlEXi4TLFjZZO ocj3IrSqZSE= =U0/n -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: fuck you Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 07:55:38 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199701241555.HAA27672@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Are their any H/ P/ V/ A/ C ers on this list?? From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Attila T. Hun" Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:11:23 -0800 (PST) To: Kevin Stephenson Subject: Re: seeds of our own destruction Message-ID: <199701241411.GAA25269@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <32E72BCB.3CBA@deltanet.com>, on 01/23/97 at 01:13 AM, Kevin Stephenson said: +You wrote some very interesting articles. It is the UN. if you want a real scare, read the UN "world constitution" on human rights and privacy --their idea of a Bill of Rights. It just happens that it is virtually word for word equivalent to the mainland Chinese "rights" -in other words: rights as long as they are consistent with the aims of the state (UN) and the security needs of the state at the given moment. ...and the UN is to be granted overall sovereignity by virtue of the right to unilateraly tax its 'member' states, and not necessarily in an equitable fashion. to put it in context, it is clearly the havenots reducing everyone to the status of havenot; there will be no others. this, of course, will eventually give way to tribal governments and the cycle will start over after the population is reduced by its own pollution and starvation to a new balance with nature. disease, more than starvation, will be the biggest killer. men will be too hungry, and too sick, to fight until it stabilizes. there will be exceptions, of course, but they will lack sufficient power to extend their sphere of influence before they are overrun by the mass, or destroyed by chemical and germ warfare in the last gasp. the meaning of the 144,000 becomes more clear... +Read Revelations (if you haven't). have more than several textbooks on it, and have taught classes on Revelation. however, I strongly believe the interpretations are still 'every man for himself' --presuming, of course, the propounder has at least the prerequisite grounding and understanding in the fundamental concepts, starting with John the Revelator, who never died, and why portions of the book are sealed. the best general reference on symbology, at least of what I have seen so far: Opening the Seven Seals (The Visions of John the Revelator) Richard D. Draper Desert Books, Salt Lake City ISBN 087579-547-1, SKU 2142298 +Maybe put some scriptures on cypherpunks. casting pearls before swine? +Happy Armageddon. Frances Ford Coppola wasted the good title: 'Apocolypse Now' -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later. iQCVAwUBMuc64b04kQrCC2kFAQFXBwP/RhEeldizuSelbrHtfCSDsrwRaT0hn1qd e/j6Q0IPHMkzrFS+bnTGia5hLogTgU61tdvq38AGlRt2LpQZVekStZqCog4Jfmx0 olK1xzpNEr71UsDxxYe5ooIhHwWVWfZsxtj6k8/eSYtLbontN+BCHbk6V+Py3BOi HOpugpbs8V4= =2XXx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Robert Hettinga Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:14:19 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Online Spending with Smart Cards and E.Cash to To US$3.5bn by year 2000 Message-ID: <199701242114.NAA07699@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain --- begin forwarded text Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 00:04:40 +0100 To: dcsb@ai.mit.edu Subject: Online Spending with Smart Cards and E.Cash to To US$3.5bn by year 2000 Cc: nelson@media.mit.edu.geer@OpenMarket.com From: a9050756@unet.univie.ac.at (Mike Alexander) Sender: bounce-dcsb@ai.mit.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-To: a9050756@unet.univie.ac.at (Mike Alexander) >>[some Fed reserve guy's] argument for stored value cards is that the >>business costs of handling cash are so substantial that there is room >>for merchants to discount purchases when made by a means that does >>not require that handling cost. > >Does anyone know of a source for information on the overhead of >accepting various forms of payment? I assume the cost of cash is >smaller than credit cards for purchases under, say, $500. Any >estimates on smart cards? On pure digital cash (delivered via a >browser)? > >I'm particularly interested in micropayments, but the larger question >is interesting as well. I've worked on this topic extensively in the past months (writing a doctoral thesis on efficiency and risk in the payment system). I can assure you this: cash in is still and will remain one of the most efficient payment instruments. This holds looking at it from a private as well as social cost perspective with sufficient empirical support. Best Regards, Michael Alexander Doctoral Student at the University of Vienna -----BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- Version: 2.6.3i mQCNAzIhxYwAAAEEALtfkL/X6GuZpEECWnmkmbqqtGwNalb94Om82VUiBE8iU1OX 2e5WXQGsq1oManSqVQn3TpVo7VE9pMJr5vITAmkEA6szGRt5zbK5u/dIqhLnJnRE sVpiY61Xw6RvQKoXX7LSqOYSCqvIiY8GJ5gRpiKQNPZVuJRqbLipmU0fPqylAAUR tDFNaWNoYWVsIEYuIEFsZXhhbmRlciA8YTkwNTA3NTZAdW5ldC51bml2aWUuYWMu YXQ+iQCVAwUQMiHFjbipmU0fPqylAQGy4QP+LjB6lZXVYFZDpoVB7j8AGvkghSsr XicZapXPmsFX6xpt+S29EF4DGoDJIDq6VLJMZ2rQ1gFfEvvWzL7ekZ3orhLSpJoO WWRZF1MNZVWBNhzxBcdK2T6yrx4cBwQX7t299Ho0y1Go69VE9e3LN8YInIXoQYp5 bc4M0u16GqmV5eI= =5l49 -----END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK----- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To unsubscribe from the dcsb list, send a letter to: Majordomo@ai.mit.edu In the body of the message, write: unsubscribe dcsb Or, to subscribe, write: subscribe dcsb If you have questions, write to me at Owner-DCSB@ai.mit.edu --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/ FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/ "If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97" From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Lou Zer Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 08:10:50 -0800 (PST) To: attila@primenet.com Subject: Re: seeds of our own destruction Message-ID: <199701241610.IAA28246@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Very soon humans will not have any purpose in life but to replicate themselves. At least before the computer came along we kept ourselves busy. But now we are getting computers to do the jobs that make up life. We already precluded the need for math a long time ago.But know their are spell checkers and even applications that check your spelling as you write. I just saw on "The Site" how computers will be in shoes, in milk cartons and in door mats. The human bodies salinity will act as a conductor for the binary information. You pick up the milk carton which then tells your your shoes that its not fresh. Then when your foot touches the door mat in Publix it tells your watch to beep and say "You DONT Got Milk" Then their will be that the floor in your apartment tells the coffee pot to make coffee because it found a low caffeine level in your body. You can shake hands with someone and automatically transmit their business card to the hard drive in your shoe. The pay phone will know exactly who to bill the second the receiver is touched. But what if I bump into you, now I have your business card. What if I steal your shoe! Oh but dont worry, all this information will be ENCRYPTED.As we all know once something is encrypted its perfectly safe.Yeah right, And Bill Gates still uses a 310 baud modem. If someone really needs to know what's on your shoeputer then they will set their 1586 700Mhz (or whatever they have by then) do do just that. So what if it takes 2 weeks or 2 months. They will have every single aspect of your life from your medical records to credit card numbers to phone number(will they even USE phone numbers by then) to your shoe size. But wait theirs more. If you haven't been crawling through a cave for the past few months you will see that Intel boasts that their chips will be able to perform 2 gigaflops or 2 billion calculations per second.Can you imagine that. If you did one mathematical calculation per second it would take you 31 thousand years. It did it in a second, don't you feel dumb. Now imagine had one of these bad boys and your shoes. How long would it take? Two hours, three or maybe, if its really dragging, a day.Thats just the good old steal it and use it technique. I don't even want to go into how people could intercept information, copy it, or make their own.Well , I think I caused you enough cranial burden for today, so remember technology is like drugs, there are always more and they keep getting more effective but you do not need them. They need you. Jonathan Leto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Lou Zer Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 08:12:26 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: No Subject Message-ID: <199701241612.IAA28256@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Does any one know of any other good mailing Lists either with crypto or anything underground From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Sean Roach Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:56:45 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip Message-ID: <199701241856.KAA03653@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 04:57 PM 1/23/97 -0800, Alan Bostick wrote: >In the Jan. 20, 1997, issue of THE NEW YORKER, the "Comment", written by >Malcolm Gladwell, makes a powerful arguement about the unintended >consequences of the V-Chip, the programmable device to be included in >next-generation television sets sold in the US that supposedly will >allow parents to control their children's access to sex and violence on >TV. > >Gladwell makes an analogy between V-Chipped TV content and >air-conditioned cars in the New York City subway system in summertime: >" . . . we need air-conditioners on subway cars because air-conditioners >on subway cars have made stations so hot that subway cars need to be >air-conditioned." Similarly, he argues, "the V-chip is likely to >increase the amount of sex and violence on television, not decrease it" >because when viewers can block offensive programming, there is far less >pressure on broadcasters and cable operators to avoid offending. > >This is just the sort of thing that John Young is given to scanning and >putting up on his Web site or sending out to people who send him email >with FUN_nie subject lines. If I were him, I'd put it up. > >And, for the benefit of those people who don't think the V-Chip isn't in >itself on-topic for cypherpunks, I might point out that Gladwell's >argument applies equally well to mail filtering with procmail recipes -- >or Sandy's and John's list moderation experiment. If the noise level on >the unmoderated list jumps to even higher than we were seeing before >the moderation began, that would provide observational support to >Gladwell's argument. You forgot about one thing, TV is one way. The V-chip will have dueling results. On the one hand, advertisers will only pay for shows that will have a large viewership. If that means that a rather objectionable show, which would traditionally draw a large population of pre-teens, can't be seen by its largest body of fans, it will probably be cut. On the other hand, TV execs won't have to worry about objections any longer and thus can broadcast what they want, assuming that they can find a decently large group of closet viewers. (Not a misstype, I meant people who are in the closet about their preferences, such as the minister with the playboy channel.) And TV is mostly one way. This net is two way, many of the shock posts were put here to draw fire. If the audience of these shock posts can not be reach to be outraged, the vile spewer will first raise the stakes, spewing even more garbage and then, finally, giving up. Just like the old argument, don't encourage them, just ignore them. Plus, a number of reply posts to the garbage will never be written because thier authors will have never seen the trash that they would have replied to. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: John Young Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:17:55 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: PSS_sst Message-ID: <199701241817.KAA02540@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain New Scientist of 25 January reviews the Bernstein's case against crypto export, US global seduction of foreign goverrments to suppress domestic calls for privacy, and therewith deftly alerts British leaders and readers to undermining the "secretive bureaucratic" Uncle Sam scam, says the deft-underminer cpunkers quoted. ----- PSS_sst From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:43:20 -0800 (PST) To: ichudov@algebra.com Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list Message-ID: <199701241843.KAA03251@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain ichudov@algebra.com wrote> >Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the >criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy. > >I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies >satisfy the current readership. > > - Igor. I am not enthused about the perceived need for moderation. But neither was I enthused with the state of the list. However, I will reserve judgement as to the success or failure of the experiment for a while yet. The question for me is how much the moderation improves the S/N ratio v.s. how much it impedes dialogue. I expect Sandy to make mistakes, even by his own criterion. But anyone who will publicly admit to shaving his eyebrows is probably not swayed by popular opinion. James From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Peter M Allan Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:14:54 -0800 (PST) To: steve@miranova.com Subject: Re: fingerd Message-ID: <199701241414.GAA25351@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hi, These messages have been sent about fingerd. My preference for fiddling with remote fingers is to leave fingerd as supplied by the vendor (run by "nobody") and replace the finger program itself. It can be made to recognise when it is being run by "nobody" and behave differently from when run by another user. Source at the end of this file. (Bashed out fairly quickly starting from a utmp-eraser I made for a luser who wouldn't tolerate wall messages from shutdown.) I have (among other things) an extension to TCP-wrappers (a new hosts_access.c file), and a prog to find disk space wasted by duplicated files. (mail me with Subject: "send goodies" for these.) -- Peter Allan peter.allan@aeat.co.uk Date: 23 Jan 1997 17:22:10 -0800 From: Steven L Baur > cfingerd is not a safe program. It must run as root, and has some big > problems. > On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Administrador da Rede wrote: > > I use the newest version of cfinger, setted to not allow general finger, just > > specific ones. Does anyone knows how this person did that ? I hope I can > > find out, otherwise, bye bye finger service. > Badly. > I have sent the author a letter, but never got any reply back (it's 3 > months later now!), so I just take the opportunity to warn the public > against its use. /* * * compile and test myfinger * * cc -C -o myfinger myfinger.c * * * (assuming the standard finger is /usr/ucb/finger) * cp /usr/ucb/finger /usr/ucb/finger.real * cp myfinger /usr/ucb/finger * * * (if using TCP wrapper reverse-fingers, make them NOT nobody, * but another id such as nobody2.) * * I disclaim any disasters........ * */ /* * * my finger program - local only, to be less informative than /usr/ucb/finger * */ #undef _utmp_h #define TRUE 1 #define FALSE 0 #define FAKE 1 #define WIPE 2 #define UTMP "/etc/utmp" #include #include #include "utmp.h" #include main(argc, argv, env) int argc; char **argv; char **env; { int i, listed; struct passwd *pwent; if (argc < 1) exit(0); /* beat sneaks */ /* If run by "nobody" (uid=65534) assume this is a remote finger */ /* otherwise run the standard finger command */ if (65534!=getuid()) { execv("/usr/ucb/finger.real", argv); /** if we get here exec failed, so we default to my finger **/ } printf("Login Name Where\n"); listed = 1; while ((pwent = getpwent()) != NULL) { if (argc > 1) { /* * if there are args, and name is NOT one of them, we skip * it */ listed = 0; for (i = 1; (!listed) && (i < argc); i++) { if (!strcmp(argv[i], pwent->pw_name)) listed = 1; } } if (listed) info(pwent); } } info(pwent) struct passwd *pwent; { long lpos; FILE *fp; int i; struct utmp *sp; struct utmp utmpentry; char *login,*gecos; login=pwent->pw_name; gecos=pwent->pw_gecos; sp = &utmpentry; if ((fp = fopen(UTMP, "r")) == NULL) { fprintf(stderr, "failed to open utmp for reading\n"); exit(1); } i = fseek(fp, 0, 0); if (i) { puts("failed to fseek start of file"); exit(2); } do { /* get current pos in file using ftell */ lpos = ftell(fp); /* fread the struct */ fread(sp, sizeof utmpentry, 1, fp); if (!feof(fp)) { if (!strcmp(login, sp->ut_name)) { if (!nonuser(utmpentry)) { utmpentry.ut_host[15]='\0'; printf("%s\t%s\t%s\t%s\n",login,gecos,sp->ut_line,sp->ut_host); } } } /* on error we close & exit */ if (ferror(fp)) { fprintf(stderr, " file error! so failed to find our session in utmp\n"); fclose(fp); exit(3); } } while (!feof(fp)); fclose(fp); } /* end */ From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Peter Trei Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:56:52 -0800 (PST) To: cryptography@c2.net Subject: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7 Message-ID: <199701241856.KAA03668@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7 Friday, Jan 23 1997 Peter Trei Next Tuesday morning, 9AM, RSA is scheduled to release the 'real' $10,000 DES challenge data. My software is in a state where it can be used for the challenge, though there is room for improvement. It currently tests about 185,000 keys/sec on my 90MHz machine. This translates to about 205,000 keys/sec on a 100 MHz machine. I still have to replace my DES round, which takes 25 clock cycles, with Svend Mikkelsen's, which takes only 18. Since the DES rounds are well over 80% of the work, this should boost the speed to over 250,000 keys/sec at 100 MHz. If I'm lucky, I'll perform this conversion over the weekend. I've sent out early betas to a few people for porting, but have had no feedback yet. I've approached several restricted FTP sites as possible distribution sites, and have had some positive responses, but nothing definitive yet. I'm being pretty strict in my interpretation of EAR for this purpose. In advance of the challenge, I'm willing to email copies as a ~100k uuencoded zip file to people, but to do so, you must comply with the following: 1. Send the request to ptrei@acm.org, NOT trei@process.com. I won't be able to read the latter for the next 10 days. 2. Include your 'true name' and residence address, as well as the email address to which it should be sent, . 3. A statement of your nationality. I'll mail it only to US Citizens, Canadian citizens, and US Green Card holders, residing in the US or Canada. 4. A statement to the effect that you understand that this is restricted code, and that cannot be exported or given to non-US/Canadian citizens I'm going to hold this information in strict confidence, and will surrender it only to a valid court order. It's similar to what you have to go through to download the domestic version of Netscape Navigator or PGP from MIT. You are free to distribute the software further. If you've complied with the requirements above, I believe that at that point I've done more than due diligence under ITAR/EAR. My software gets it's challenge data either from a text file cut-and-pasted from the RSA page, or from internally stored data. Tuesday night, I'll recompile the program with the real challenge data, and redistribute. My version runs on WinNT or Win95, on 486's and above. It's set up as a console app, which can run in background. I don't yet have a version for Win 3.1 or below 486, but may do in the future. The software is set up in such a way that it can be used either on a standalone system, or in a LAN environment with shared disks. The latter has a slightly more complex setup, but will allow many machines to share one executable and results file. I envisage people installing one copy on a shared disk in their workplace, and then adding the appropriate commands to the autoexec.bat file of every machine they can, so the program will start running whenever the machine is booted. (I HOPE you get permission!). The distribution includes both source and the Win32 executable. The source includes both fast Intel assembler, and much slower generic 'C'. There's nothing that's really Microsoft specific in the code - it should be easy to port to other systems with 32 bit or better processors. I'm attempting to do a 'PGP style' distribution with a signed, nested zip file. The signing key I'm using is available at http://www.ziplink.net/users/trei/crypto.html (I hope I've done this right). I'm only going to send out signed archives. If you get one where the signature fails, or one lacking a signature, I repudiate it - and you should be suspicous of it. I'll be trying to set up that URL as a page describing the project, with info on other efforts, and FAQs. Once the challenge starts, I hope you'll all evangelize it to your friends and acquaintences. I'd like to see 100,000 machines trying for the $10,000. All next week I'm in the San Francisco area (I'm flying out in a couple hours). I'll be attending the Verisign Partner's Day on Monday, and I'll be at the RSA Data Security Conference Tuesday through Friday. I'll be trying to read cypherpunks and coderpunks at least once a day, along with checking mail to ptrei@acm.org. I can't read cryptography@c2.net from an archive, so I will not see it unless it cc's ptrei@acm.org (Perry, could you temporarily subscribe ptrei@acm.org?) Happy hunting! Peter Trei ptrei@acm.org From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Peter Trei Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:25:28 -0800 (PST) To: cryptography@c2.net Subject: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7 Message-ID: <199701241925.LAA04648@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7 Friday, Jan 23 1997 Peter Trei Next Tuesday morning, 9AM, RSA is scheduled to release the 'real' $10,000 DES challenge data. My software is in a state where it can be used for the challenge, though there is room for improvement. It currently tests about 185,000 keys/sec on my 90MHz machine. This translates to about 205,000 keys/sec on a 100 MHz machine. I still have to replace my DES round, which takes 25 clock cycles, with Svend Mikkelsen's, which takes only 18. Since the DES rounds are well over 80% of the work, this should boost the speed to over 250,000 keys/sec at 100 MHz. If I'm lucky, I'll perform this conversion over the weekend. I've sent out early betas to a few people for porting, but have had no feedback yet. I've approached several restricted FTP sites as possible distribution sites, and have had some positive responses, but nothing definitive yet. I'm being pretty strict in my interpretation of EAR for this purpose. In advance of the challenge, I'm willing to email copies as a ~100k uuencoded zip file to people, but to do so, you must comply with the following: 1. Send the request to ptrei@acm.org, NOT trei@process.com. I won't be able to read the latter for the next 10 days. 2. Include your 'true name' and residence address, as well as the email address to which it should be sent, . 3. A statement of your nationality. I'll mail it only to US Citizens, Canadian citizens, and US Green Card holders, residing in the US or Canada. 4. A statement to the effect that you understand that this is restricted code, and that cannot be exported or given to non-US/Canadian citizens I'm going to hold this information in strict confidence, and will surrender it only to a valid court order. It's similar to what you have to go through to download the domestic version of Netscape Navigator or PGP from MIT. You are free to distribute the software further. If you've complied with the requirements above, I believe that at that point I've done more than due diligence under ITAR/EAR. My software gets it's challenge data either from a text file cut-and-pasted from the RSA page, or from internally stored data. Tuesday night, I'll recompile the program with the real challenge data, and redistribute. My version runs on WinNT or Win95, on 486's and above. It's set up as a console app, which can run in background. I don't yet have a version for Win 3.1 or below 486, but may do in the future. The software is set up in such a way that it can be used either on a standalone system, or in a LAN environment with shared disks. The latter has a slightly more complex setup, but will allow many machines to share one executable and results file. I envisage people installing one copy on a shared disk in their workplace, and then adding the appropriate commands to the autoexec.bat file of every machine they can, so the program will start running whenever the machine is booted. (I HOPE you get permission!). The distribution includes both source and the Win32 executable. The source includes both fast Intel assembler, and much slower generic 'C'. There's nothing that's really Microsoft specific in the code - it should be easy to port to other systems with 32 bit or better processors. I'm attempting to do a 'PGP style' distribution with a signed, nested zip file. The signing key I'm using is available at http://www.ziplink.net/users/trei/crypto.html (I hope I've done this right). I'm only going to send out signed archives. If you get one where the signature fails, or one lacking a signature, I repudiate it - and you should be suspicous of it. I'll be trying to set up that URL as a page describing the project, with info on other efforts, and FAQs. Once the challenge starts, I hope you'll all evangelize it to your friends and acquaintences. I'd like to see 100,000 machines trying for the $10,000. All next week I'm in the San Francisco area (I'm flying out in a couple hours). I'll be attending the Verisign Partner's Day on Monday, and I'll be at the RSA Data Security Conference Tuesday through Friday. I'll be trying to read cypherpunks and coderpunks at least once a day, along with checking mail to ptrei@acm.org. I can't read cryptography@c2.net from an archive, so I will not see it unless it cc's ptrei@acm.org (Perry, could you temporarily subscribe ptrei@acm.org?) Happy hunting! Peter Trei ptrei@acm.org From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "E. Allen Smith" Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:41:35 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks-owner@toad.com Subject: Vulis posting on the moderated list Message-ID: <199701241841.KAA03202@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Umm... is something going wrong with the moderation routines? Sandy also had a posting that he specifically _said_ was going to the flames & unedited lists _only_ that got to me. -Allen From: IN%"dlv@bwalk.dm.com" "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" 24-JAN-1997 12:43:05.89 To: IN%"cypherpunks@toad.com" CC: Subj: Homosexuals Received: from toad.com by mbcl.rutgers.edu (PMDF #12194) id <01IELB4M5E1C94FEIV@mbcl.rutgers.edu>; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:42 EDT Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA25350; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 06:14:13 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 07:17:13 EST From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Subject: Homosexuals Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com To: cypherpunks@toad.com Message-id: <199701241414.GAA25350@toad.com> X-Envelope-to: EALLENSMITH Precedence: bulk fuck you writes in the censored list: > If anyone has any text files on the following topics please send them. ... > Anything underground Anything? My good friend TRRCJ3 reports from San Francisco that the city is much nicer now that so many homosexuals are 6 feet under. Thank God for AIDS. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "David E. Smith" Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:14:16 -0800 (PST) To: shamrock@netcom.com Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks Message-ID: <199701242114.NAA07698@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I'm playing with SecureDrive; the problem is not with using it with a Zip disk so much as it is trying to get it to play nice with Windows 95. ObCrypto: Check this out (from the readme.txt that comes on every Zip disk before you delete it) 7. Secure sensitive files. To keep sensitive or confidential information safe, store it on a Zip disk and use your Zip Tools software to assign a password that must be used in order to read from or write to the disk. At work, you can protect sensitive information such as personnel files, company directories, and product plans and designs. At home, you can secure personal information such as tax records, budgets, and computerized checkbooks. Iomega hasn't been willing to tell me how the password is stored, so this looks like a big boiling pot of snake oil. Anyone out there played with Zip drive/disk internals and know how it works? dave From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:12:34 -0800 (PST) To: "David E. Smith" Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks Message-ID: <199701242112.NAA07638@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain David E. Smith wrote: > I'm playing with SecureDrive; the problem is not with using it > with a Zip disk so much as it is trying to get it to play nice > with Windows 95. > Iomega hasn't been willing to tell me how the password is stored, > so this looks like a big boiling pot of snake oil. Anyone out > there played with Zip drive/disk internals and know how it works? > Dave, I came across a 'cracker' program that claims to be able to hack the SecureDrive encryption system. Off the top of my head, I think it was called ZipCracker, or something similar in name to one of the PKZip encryption cracking programs. I found it on one of the hacker websites, and there was a text file regarding SecureDrive which went into some detail re: both the hardware and software aspects of the Zip drives and the encryption itself. Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Genocide Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:43:02 -0800 (PST) To: fuck you Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: <199701242243.OAA10349@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, fuck you wrote: > Are their any H/ P/ V/ A/ C ers on this list?? Yes. Genocide Head of the Genocide2600 Group ============================================================================ **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com! ____________________ *---===| |===---* *---===| Genocide |===---* "You can be a king or a street *---===| 2600 |===---* sweeper, but everyone dances with the *---===|__________________|===---* Grim Reaper." Email: gen2600@aracnet.com Web: http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. ================================================================================ From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Mullen, Patrick Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:12:36 -0800 (PST) To: "'ichudov@algebra.com> Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list Message-ID: <199701242112.NAA07643@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Igor sez: >Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the >criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy. I question this, too. What, exactly, is the criterion? Cypherpunks charter sez: The cypherpunks list is a forum for discussing personal defenses for privacy in the digital domain. How does personal attacks through forged and anonymous mail not fit this topic? However, I _do_ have to say such a topic would have to keep with a descriptive attitude, rather than demonstrative... :-) On another note, even though some messages which may be of interest may get lost in the shuffle, I do like the reduced volume, esp. since I get listmail at work. Unfortunately, the reduced mail is a result of censorship... :-( ~ Patrick >---------- >From: ichudov@algebra.com[SMTP:ichudov@algebra.com] >Sent: Friday, January 24, 1997 2:33 AM >To: Cypherpunks >Subject: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list > >I would like to start a thread to discuss the moderation and rejection >policy. > >My perfectly crypto-relevant article regarding possible attacks >on human relationships with the use of forged mail and anonymous >remailers, has been tossed out (sorted) into cypherpunks-flames >mailing list. > >You can receive a copy of my article by an email request. > >The explanation that Sandy Sandfort gave me mentioned that he rejected >my message because it continued a thread where Sandy noticed instances >of "flaming". Note that my message was free of any flames, including >its quoted part. > >Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the >criterion by which he moderates this list. I question this policy. > >I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy >the current readership. > > - Igor. > > From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Cynthia H. Brown" Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:44:44 -0800 (PST) To: Toto Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list Message-ID: <199701242244.OAA10411@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Toto wrote: > Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > The explanation that Sandy Sandfort gave me mentioned that he rejected > > my message because it continued a thread where Sandy noticed instances > > of "flaming". Note that my message was free of any flames, including > > its quoted part. > > The standard of what constitutes a 'flame' seems to rest very much > upon whom a comment is directed at, or merely 'vaguely toward'. Beauty, flames and censorship are all in the eyes of the beholder. However, by providing both "raw" and "cooked" versions of the list, Sandy is allowing readers to choose for themselves whether or not they want someone else's filters applied to their mailbox. Personally, I choose to press the "Delete" key myself. > > Sandy also states rather plainly that crypto-relevance is not the > > criterion by which he moderates this list. > > This was more than obvious to anyone who cared to cast an objective > eye on the process, but their input was pooh-paah'd by the 'washed > masses'. Note that Sandy also stated that the post in question would not be sent to the 'washed masses'. > > I would like to hear your opinions as to whether such policies satisfy > > the current readership. > > Like all of the 'opinions' that were expressed prior to the censorship > of the list? I haven't seen any indication that these opinions were > given the slightest consideration. This is not the readership's list. > It is a private individual's list. Agreed, and said private individual can do as s/he sees fit. My only objection is that the moderated version has the same name as the original list (sounds like Rogers Cable's recent attempt at "Costs More Unless You Speak Up Now" channels). > In short, I don't see the moderation as being 'fair', and I don't > think it was ever meant to be. Again, fairness is in the eyes of the beholder. I don't object to the list being filtered, as long as everyone understands that this is happening. What will happen, I wonder, if at the end of the trial period the number of subscribers to the "raw" list outnumbers those who get the "cooked" list, or vice versa? Is that one of the criteria for determining the "success" of the experiment? Cynthia =============================================================== Cynthia H. Brown, P.Eng. Ottawa, Ontario, Canada E-mail: cynthb@sonetis.com Home Page: http://www.sonetis.com/~cynthb/ PGP Key: See Home Page Junk mail will be ignored in the order in which it is received. Klein bottle for rent; enquire within. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: aaron@herringn.com Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:57:22 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Cellular location... Message-ID: <199701250957.BAA23610@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Presented in a "this will help 911" context. Still disconcerting. [...] Companies working on the technology to track cellular phone calls have been given additional incentive with a Federal Communications Commission order that all cell phone service companies have location programs in place by the year 2001. [...] http://cnn.com/US/9701/22/911.rescue/index.html From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Damaged Justice Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 15:29:20 -0800 (PST) To: frogfarm@yakko.cs.wmich.edu Subject: (fwd) Re: PGP implementation source code Message-ID: <199701242329.PAA11838@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain [The discussion started with Pretty Safe Mail, the recent "PGP-compatible" Mac program, and whether or not it was safe. Source code is not available. Some authors noted that PSM was much slower than PGP, but so far lives up to its promise of user-friendliness. A Win95 version is in the works.] >From: Ian_Miller@bifroest.demon.co.uk (Ian Miller) Newsgroups: comp.security.pgp.discuss,comp.security.pgp.resources Subject: Re: PGP implementation source code (was "Imminent Death of PGP?" revisited) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 19:55:46 +0000 Lines: 66 Message-ID: In article <5c2kap$1tu@topcat.uk.gdscorp.com>, Steve Gilham wrote: >PGP defines, but, IIRC does not inspect, a comment packet type. This >packet type could be added to a .pgp file and contain anything the >implementor wished (your plaintext secret key if it has been used in >this instance of the program, any IDEA key used, your passphrase, if >given) without any standard PGP implementation being aware of it The IDEA initialisation vector could also be used as a subliminal channel, it is only 8 bytes but it could (for example) leak a random 60 bits of one prime in your secret key with the remain 4 bits saying which set of 60 bits. Worse is the possibility that the program could put a back door into RSA key generation to make the modulus trivially factorisable by someone in the know. There are a number of mechanisms for this of varying detectability up to detectable only by reverse-engineering. Here are some of the (endless) possibilities in order of increasing sophistication:- 1) Make one of the primes a constant. Factorise by dividing by this number. Detectable by inspection of public keys alone. (For more details, see my article "There are no common factors in the Public keyring", 13th Jan in comp.security.pgp.announce.) 2) Select the first prime P at random but make second prime Q the smallest prime larger than PK where K is a constant. Factorise by searching from root(N/K). Probably detectable by suitable inspection of several secret keys generated by the product, but (I think) undetectable from public keys alone. 3) Select a random seed and using a good PRNG, make the rest of generation process deterministic based on the seed. Use the "deadbeef" technique to select a modulus that has this seed as its least significant bytes. Factorise by extracting the seed from the modulus and repeating the deterministic key generation. This is detectable only by reverse engineering. 4) Select a random seed and use a short key PKE key exchange system (e.g. Elliptic curve) to generate a session key and a key exchange cyphertext. Use a key generation similar to (3) except that you seed the PRNG with the session key and deadbeef to make a key ending in the key exchange cyphertext. Factorise by extracting and decrypting the session key (requires a secret key), and repeating the key generation. Again this is only detectable by reverse engineering, but even after executing the reverse engineering you still cannot factor the keys generated because the program only contains the public key not the secret key. Method (4) is an interesting example of a "locked back-door". There is often an unstated assumption that back-doors have to be open. i.e. If you can find them you can get in. It isn't always true. Whereas it seems intuitively unlikely, it is not inconceivable that there is a way of putting a locked back-door into some forms of Feistel ciphers. The NSA would have been reluctant to put an open back-door into DES, but they would not have hesitated to put in a locked back-door. In my opinion the only safe assumption is that they could and they did. In cryptography you shouldn't trust your intuition, code with source or unexplained algorithm components. Ian Ian_Miller@bifroest.demon.co.uk FAI-D10204 PGP key 1024/FCE97719 FP: 2A 20 46 10 E5 96 27 40 91 B1 95 BA CA D3 BC 14 Antworten auf Deutsch waeren mir angenehm. -- http://yakko.cs.wmich.edu/~frogfarm ...for the best in unapproved information Tell your friends 'n neighbors you read this on the evil pornographic Internet "Where one burns books, one will also burn people eventually." -Heinrich Heine People and books aren't for burning. No more Alexandrias, Auschwitzs or Wacos. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:26:01 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd) Message-ID: <199701250026.QAA13770@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Forwarded message: > Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 21:33:41 +0000 > From: "Attila T. Hun" > Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive Much drivel about AIDS deleted. > One of the saddest commentaries on the entire problem is the > man, a Pan-American flight steward, who was identified as carrier > #1 by the Communicable Disease Center (CDC) in Atlanta; he died The correct term is 'Patient 0'. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage@ssz.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Damaged Justice Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:10:56 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: (fwd) New keyserver available Message-ID: <199701250010.QAA13349@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >From: tage@cc.uit.no (Tage Stabell-Kulo) Newsgroups: comp.security.pgp.tech Subject: New keyserver available Date: 24 Jan 1997 16:11:26 GMT Lines: 12 Message-ID: <5camve$3d4@news.uit.no> A new PGP keyserver, still _very_ experimental, is available at host dslab1.cs.uit.no at port 24162, use telnet(1). In general it will find a key in a few seconds. Your comments and suggestions are solicited. -- //// Tage Stabell-Kuloe | e-mail: Tage@ACM.org //// /// Department of Computer Science/IMR | Phone : +47-776-44032 /// // 9037 University of Tromsoe, Norway | Fax : +47-776-44580 // / "'oe' is '\o' in TeX" | URL:http://www.cs.uit.no/~tage/ -- http://yakko.cs.wmich.edu/~frogfarm ...for the best in unapproved information "We think people like seeing somebody in a uniform on the porch." -US Postal spokeswoman, quoted in AP, 1/27/96. I don't know about you, but most people I know who saw someone in uniform on their porch would pull out the shotgun... From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Steve Schear Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:57:07 -0800 (PST) To: "Attila T. Hun" Subject: Re: greed and the internet Message-ID: <199701250957.BAA23607@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > The Internet will no no longer be the peoples net, and the > commercial greedies are establishing a faster, more secure > network with controlled access points; leaving the common man's > access in the mud, still paying the exorbitant rates on a pay > before play basis. That, and it gives control of information to > the government --which, as we all know. is 'heavenly white' > -above sin. > Rather than being forced by pressures from the market, smaller ISPs appear to be holding their own and in many cases thriving. A significant number of them have begun to form their own cooperatives to operate mini-NAPs, mosty to aggregate local traffic and reduce unnecessary traffic to the NAPs. It isn't too far a stretch to envision that should this practive become commonplace, these smaller ISPs could band together to create their own Net overlay, bypassing the NAPs. This trend could spell trouble for gov't agencies expecting to monitor Net traffic from only a few convenient locations (i.e., NAPs). --Steve From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Hugh Daniel Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:57:11 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Scandinavian Goverments provide PGP to postal customers... Message-ID: <199701250957.BAA23608@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain FYI: >From: jsp@betz.biostr.washington.edu >Sent: Friday, January 24, 1997 2:31 PM >Subject: Meanwhile, back in the Free World... > > >Encrypted Email For Finns, Swedes, Danes > by Sami Kuusela > > 4:43 pm PST 23 Jan 97 - While keeping a watchful eye on the emerging > American encryption policy, Scandinavian countries are embarking > on a joint project to implement the first international email security > service. > > Nordic Post Security Service (NPSS) - involving Finland, Norway, > Sweden, and Denmark - hopes to provide secure email, and > officials say that soon every Nordic citizen can walk into the > nearest post office and sign up for it. > > But no matter the success of the secure email system, the NPSS > project is a clear sign that, unlike the United States, Northern > Europe is moving forward with exporting encryption technology > across national barriers. > > "Finnish policy has not been to start with regulations and fear of > Net issues," says Anu Lamberg, the head of the Information > Network Unit in the Finnish Ministry of Transport and > Communications. "The American discussion on this matter has > been funny to watch, but I hope nobody in Europe or Finland starts > to question the very basics of democracy." > > Based on PGP, with no "third-party" key holder, the Nordic system > uses unbreakable RSA-algorithm encryption with a 1024-bit key. > > However, some hardware is required. Because the key is on a > smartcard, users must have smartcard readers installed on their > computers, which aren't yet widely available. But Pdr Andler of > Finnish Hewlett Packard says that later this year, smartcard readers > will become standard on computers in Scandinavia. "It is a really > big help for users, who don't have to remember dozens of > passwords when using different kind of services," Andler says. > > The project has been moderately successful in Finland - the first > Nordic country to offer the secure email - as the system isn't any > more difficult to use than a standard email program. All the user > has to do is click "send." > > For project developers, using strong crypto was never an issue. > "From the very beginning we've been basing this on strong crypto," > says Vesa-Pekka Moilanen, technical director for Finland Post, and > mastermind of the email project. "At first, the customers are going > to be mainly professionals," he says, "but quite soon private > individuals will start using it." But the use of secure email probably > won't be widespread until 1998 - if then. > > "If strong crypto is banned it's going to have major effects on the > development of information society," says Risto Siilasmaa, the > CEO and president of DataFellows, one of the only makers of > encryption programs in Finland. The Finnish government awarded > DataFellows "most innovative company" honors in 1996. "But > nobody is going to limit strong crypto. I haven't met a single > leading Nordic official who says otherwise." > > One question, though: What if a Nordic citizen enters the United > States with the email program installed on his or her laptop? For > now, Nordic officials are only beginning to contemplate the > ramifications. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: tekmasta@global.california.com Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:58:48 -0800 (PST) To: Genocide Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: <199701250958.BAA23623@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 02:37 PM 1/24/97 -0800, you wrote: >On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, fuck you wrote: > >> Are their any H/ P/ V/ A/ C ers on this list?? > > Yes. > >Genocide >Head of the Genocide2600 Group > > >============================================================================ > **Coming soon! www.Genocide2600.com! > ____________________ > *---===| |===---* > *---===| Genocide |===---* "You can be a king or a street > *---===| 2600 |===---* sweeper, but everyone dances with the > *---===|__________________|===---* Grim Reaper." > >Email: gen2600@aracnet.com Web: http://www.aracnet.com/~gen2600 > >^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. > It is by the Mountain Dew that the thoughts acquire speed, > the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning. > It is by caffeine alone that I set my mind in motion. >=========================================================================== ===== try my site too http://gcwp.com/fadedimage can anyone help me out with getting pgp working... I just got 2.6.2 excutable the freeware one and its for dos... I need to get one that works with eudora or netscape.... please help! ,_ ,. .`.--- . ,-,-,-. ,---. .---. |_ / | ,-| |__ ,-|.`,| | | ,-.| -' ,-.,'\___ | /~~|-.| |,| | || | ; | .,-|| ,-'|-' \ | ,' `-'`-'`^---`-'' ' `-'`-^`---| `-' `---' ' ,-.| `-+' ,-. . .,-. . . . ,-_/,.,--. | | ,-.,-| | | ,-.,-|,-.,-.,-.,-.,-.. .,-.,-| ' |_|/| | | | .| || | | | .| || ||-'| | || | || || || | /| | | \| `--^-'' '`-' `--^-'' '`-'`-'' `-|' `-'`-'' '`-' `' `'`--\ ,| `' -= http://gcwp.com/fadedimage =- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Attila T. Hun" Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 13:12:40 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks Subject: Re: Homosexuals Message-ID: <199701242112.NAA07645@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <199701241414.GAA25350@toad.com>, on 01/24/97 at 07:17 AM, "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" said: +Anything? My good friend TRRCJ3 reports from San Francisco that the +city is much nicer now that so many homosexuals are 6 feet under. +Thank God for AIDS. when AIDS was relatively obscure, I always dismissed AIDS as God's response to homosexuality (and other crimes against nature); i.e. -settlement by a just God. Unfortunately, some of these boy-girls could not keep it among themselves, and the closet queens brought it home. AIDS replicates asexually, knowing no boundaries. I would not wish the disease upon anyone, but if you play, you just might pay --as in "...reap what thy hath sown." One of the saddest commentaries on the entire problem is the man, a Pan-American flight steward, who was identified as carrier #1 by the Communicable Disease Center (CDC) in Atlanta; he died protesting he did not have the disease, nor was he a carrier. The flight steward was still sexually active until his impending death removed even his ability to passively participate. Unfortunately, he was not only in total denial as to the disease and its communicability, but he was also immensely profligate, having surrendered to total licentiousnous. To be strongly opposed to homosexuality has nothing to do with bigotry, political correctness, or aberrationist apologists; it is an exposition of the natural order among the species. and for those who deny God, read Darwin as to the relative rate of survival for deviant and/or abnormal species. == "eschewing my enmity is exemplary, even transcending my fraternity. --attila -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later. iQCVAwUBMukZO704kQrCC2kFAQHdVgP+K5WJPhgPDY3DJerIYHmz4PbsItrSQCF0 eoS2wyYVTG3PZ5YDhk+dRfn2OuhEE0n/vLiDlXakAjqQBtncyIF74pfE4mxn3DWC 1xLMJr9vFI7x0soX6sPIzSD9Yh0CyKHIk75r/RQk2T4doVoGSxJWbe0YKCItiGz4 PvH9hGh6F7E= =A2up -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:57:29 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Homosexuality Message-ID: <199701250957.BAA23611@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Lou Zer writes: > Does any one know of any other good mailing Lists either with crypto or > anything underground Perhaps we should start an unmoderated list and call it "cypherpunks". Or create alt.cypherpunks. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Lou Zer Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:55:42 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Comments Message-ID: <199701250955.BAA23530@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain All comments on my article will be welcome and replied to. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Bill Campbell Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:55:49 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Anyone have info on foreign "ITARS" Message-ID: <199701250955.BAA23545@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Does anyone have any pointers to info about the import/export restrictions on encryption products in various countries. I know any such summary would be very dynamic, but perhaps there's something out there. Thanks! =Bill= From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 02:11:38 -0800 (PST) To: "Cynthia H. Brown" Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list Message-ID: <199701251011.CAA23822@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Cynthia H. Brown wrote: > Beauty, flames and censorship are all in the eyes of the beholder. > However, by providing both "raw" and "cooked" versions of the list, Sandy > is allowing readers to choose for themselves whether or not they want > someone else's filters applied to their mailbox. Personally, I choose to > press the "Delete" key myself. > Agreed, and said private individual can do as s/he sees fit. My only > objection is that the moderated version has the same name as the original > list (sounds like Rogers Cable's recent attempt at "Costs More Unless You > Speak Up Now" channels). I apologize for intruding, Cynthia, but I have a question about "doing as s/he sees fit". For example, what is the list? Is it the equipment, is it the software that runs on the equipment, or is it the contents of the list (my writings, your writings, etc.)? If I had to rank them, I would rank the contents as being more important than the equipment or the software. That said, how can those contents be considered the property of the list owner/manager to do with as they see fit? I do understand that they have the right to manage the list as they see fit, and to move the messages into whatever buckets seem appropriate, but your phrasing suggested more to me, and I'm puzzled by it. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Bill Stewart Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 02:11:56 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: testing email from airport kiosk Message-ID: <199701251011.CAA23844@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain An update on the SF airport kiosk email machines: Judging from the headers, there _is_ a Linux machine driving the laptops, and there's a Metricom ricochet modem providing the communications path - interesting alternative to wires, and I guess they don't mind having the extra radio waves in the airport. It does support anonymous email, in that you can type in any email address you want, and it doesn't seem to mind. In addition to limited web, telnet, and outgoing email, it lets you retrieve email with POP3. Doesn't seem to be a way to get it to run a program, though :-) --------------------------------- Return-Path: Received: from linux.quickaid.com (root@www.quickaid.com [204.188.26.11]) by ixmail4.ix.netcom.com (8.7.5/SMI-4.1/Netcom) id VAA18934; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:59:22 -0800 (PST) From: johndoe@airport.sf.na Received: from SFO-00-6.ricochet.net ([204.254.16.39]) by linux.quickaid.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id WAA22004 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 22:00:13 -0800 Message-Id: <199701230600.WAA22004@linux.quickaid.com> Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 21:58:40 To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com Subject: testing email from airport kiosk X-Mailer: QuickAID Kiosk who am i # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Bill Stewart Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 02:11:35 -0800 (PST) To: Jim Choate Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) Message-ID: <199701251011.CAA23818@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 07:38 PM 1/23/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >> We here all know that this is right but it's obvious that >> the language is sliding towards Internet = Web. Most people > >Typical modern American attitude, getting it right is too much work so >let's lower the benchmark so anyone can be 'right'. >You'll be supporting Ebonics next. One of the points of the Ebonics program is to recognize that other people don't always speak the same way you do, and that if you want to communicate with them, you'll be more successful if you realize it, understand when they're talking in their dialect, and if you're going to talk back to them in yours, remember to translate on occasion. _Regardless_ of whose dialect is "right" (of course on technical issues, we technical people are right, but if you've got the hacker nature, treat it as a problem in social engineering.......) Speaker to Marketers From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Attila T. Hun" Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:43:04 -0800 (PST) To: aga Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive Message-ID: <199701242243.OAA10355@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain aga's original message follows pgp----- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- when AIDS was relatively obscure, I always dismissed AIDS as God's response to homosexuality (and other crimes against nature); i.e. -settlement by a just God. Unfortunately, some of these boy-girls could not keep it among themselves, and the closet queens brought it home. AIDS replicates asexually, knowing no boundaries. I would not wish the disease upon anyone, but if you play, you just might pay --as in "...reap what thy hath sown." One of the saddest commentaries on the entire problem is the man, a Pan-American flight steward, who was identified as carrier #1 by the Communicable Disease Center (CDC) in Atlanta; he died protesting he did not have the disease, nor was he a carrier. The flight steward was still sexually active until his impending death removed even his ability to passively participate. Unfortunately, he was not only in total denial as to the disease and its communicability, but he was also immensely profligate, having surrendered to total licentiousnous. To be strongly opposed to homosexuality has nothing to do with bigotry, political correctness, or aberrationist apologists; it is an exposition of the natural order among the species. and for those who deny God, read Darwin as to the relative rate of survival for deviant and/or abnormal species. == "eschewing my enmity is exemplary, even transcending my fraternity. --attila -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later. iQCVAwUBMukqX704kQrCC2kFAQGsDAQAxAMLt2JwaKqfz1Kw5IMf+EAQnQaoxpzR LtyTbCEvwhZRymfFwLZPj3P9Ph074ufOv0r/EmntvF2KmTETWM7k8ol5EySGjCbf 2mytxMy5VQiy5TBJWCvnxwdp/UjACtBM1sY8X16UyMLSE0tyzy4k3sF0TmPPkKdG FUQZzjXwYfQ= =TNlj -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- In , on 01/16/97 at 06:28 AM, aga said: +> "Who Are The Patients? +> "In the United States, homosexual and bisexual males make up > +approximately 62 percent of the total patients. The other major group > +afflicted with AIDS are intravenous drug abusers -- both men and women +-- +> who constitute 20 percent of the total. . . ." +> +> "ADULTS AND ADOLESCENTS WITH AIDS, 1981-87 +> ================================== Males % Females % Both sexes +% > Homosexual/bisexual males 50,325 68 0 +50,325 62 > Intravenous (IV) drug abusers 12,529 17 3,622 52 +16,151 20 > Homosexual male an IV drug abusers 5,874 8 +5,874 7 > Hemophilia/coagulation disorder 751 1 22 0 +773 1 > Heterosexuals 1,516 2 2,073 30 +3,589 4 > Blood transfusion 1,297 2 747 11 +2,044 3 > Undetermined (1) 2,143 3 519 7 +2,662 3 > TOTAL 74,435 91 6,983 9 +81,418 100 > +========================================================================= +> "Note: Provisional data. Cases with more than one risk factor than +the > combinations listed are tabulated only in the category listed +first. > (1) Includes patients on whom risk information is incomplete, +patients > still under investigation, men reported only to have had +heterosexual > contact with a prostitute, and patients for whom no +specific risk was > identified; also includes one health care worker +who developed AIDS after > a documented needle-stick to blood. Source: +Centers for Disease Control." > +========================================================================= +> Cited in "The Universal Almanac 1990", Andrews and McMeel, 1989. > +========================================================================= From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Duncan Frissell Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:58:46 -0800 (PST) To: Jim Choate MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 06:11 PM 1/24/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > >Forwarded message: > >> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 21:33:41 +0000 >> From: "Attila T. Hun" >> Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive > >Much drivel about AIDS deleted. > >> One of the saddest commentaries on the entire problem is the >> man, a Pan-American flight steward, who was identified as carrier >> #1 by the Communicable Disease Center (CDC) in Atlanta; he died > >The correct term is 'Patient 0'. > > Also he was an Air Canada steward. DCF -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQCVAgUBMul7M4VO4r4sgSPhAQHe8wP+KB2rk12gJJJozsNH5FKKOi6Gnk5zdggf N91N/3rOa6c0ZQFdDD9xE887pJe6wl3qER1S9OMeXMemG2J3RuCLWnIGBNcHAN0z FAMezugL832jzGRwy5ARTNnOYzq3DtgTQpynpo9atZjPMumyI+QQ7Qec8SOO9Nyc VnG2L9UL2zg= =QN46 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:57:06 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd) Message-ID: <199701250957.BAA23606@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Forwarded message: > From satan_is_a_hacker@juno.com Fri Jan 24 22:06:53 1997 > Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd) > Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 22:57:52 EST > > YOU ARE BOTH WRONG THE CORRECT TERM IS INDEX CASE > >The correct term is 'Patient 0'. You are welcome to contact the CDC in Georgia and correct their terminology. I am shure they would appreciate it. http://www.cdc.gov/ Their webpage search capability is temporarily down so you might have to talk to a real person, Center for Disease Control and Prevention 1600 Clifton Rd., NE. Atlanta, GA 30333 404-639-3311 Jim Choate CyberTects ravage@ssz.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:57:13 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: overview.htm Message-ID: <199701250957.BAA23609@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain _________________________________________________________________ OVERVIEW OF HIV/AIDS _________________________________________________________________ Some important facts about the evidence that HIV causes AIDS are: * Tests for HIV antibody in persons with AIDS show that they are infected with the virus. * HIV has been isolated from persons with AIDS and grown in pure culture. * Studies of blood transfusion recipients before 1985 documented the transmission of HIV to previously uninfected persons who subsequently developed AIDS. Before the discovery of human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), the virus that causes AIDS, epidemiologic studies of AIDS patients' sex partners and AIDS cases occurring in blood transfusion recipients before 1985 clearly showed that the underlying cause of AIDS was an infectious agent. Infection with HIV has been the only common factor shared by persons with AIDS throughout the world, including homosexual men, transfusion recipients, persons with hemophilia, sex partners of infected persons, children born to infected women, and health care workers who were infected with HIV while on the job, mainly by being stuck with a needle used on an HIV-infected patient. Although we know that HIV is the cause of AIDS, much remains to be known about exactly how HIV causes the immune system to break down. Scientists are constantly discovering more information about HIV and AIDS. These discoveries help people learn how to stop transmission of the virus and help people infected with HIV to live longer, healthier lives. One important question to answer is why some people exposed to HIV become infected and others do not. Scientists believe it is most likely because of how infectious the other person is and how they are exposed. For example, more than 90 percent of persons who were exposed through an HIV-infected unit of blood became infected. So we know that blood-to-blood contact is a very efficient way that HIV is spread. On the other hand, many health care workers are splashed with blood or bloody body fluids and this type of exposure has caused very few occurrences of HIV infection. Researchers know how HIV is spread and the ways that people can help protect themselves from being exposed to HIV. If you have questions about HIV infection and AIDS, please call the CDC National AIDS Hotline at the tollfree number, 1-800-342-2437. If you wish to write to CDC regarding this subject, please write to the CDC National AIDS Clearinghouse, Post Office Box 6003, Rockville, Maryland, 20849-6003. _________________________________________________________________ Back to HIV/AIDS Information Return to HIV/AIDS Information Back to DHAP home page GO BACK TO DHAP HOME PAGE (with graphics) (text only) _________________________________________________________________ Last Updated: June 13, 1996 Updated By: Technical Information Activity email: hivmail@cidhiv1.em.cdc.gov From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: no_one@nowhere.org Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:56:52 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals Most Destructive (fwd) Message-ID: <199701250956.BAA23557@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain In article <199701250026.QAA13770@toad.com>, ravage@einstein.ssz.com (Jim Choate) wrote: > Much drivel about AIDS deleted. > > > One of the saddest commentaries on the entire problem is the > > man, a Pan-American flight steward, who was identified as carrier > > #1 by the Communicable Disease Center (CDC) in Atlanta; he died > > The correct term is 'Patient 0'. And the CDC is the Centers for Disease Control; and it has since found many, many prior cases of AIDS. These three minor errors are indicative of Attila's reliability of the subject. Of course, no one at CDC or NIH believes any of this crap; it was tired a decade ago. ObCrypto? How to implement RL anonymity protocols for medical treatment? (Of course I'm stretching it - but "carriers" were the *first* horseman. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jeremiah A Blatz Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 01:58:48 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks Message-ID: <199701250958.BAA23622@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- "David E. Smith" writes: > 7. Secure sensitive files. > To keep sensitive or confidential information safe, store it > on a Zip disk and use your Zip Tools software to assign a > password that must be used in order to read from or write to > the disk. At work, you can protect sensitive information > such as personnel files, company directories, and product > plans and designs. At home, you can secure personal > information such as tax records, budgets, and computerized > checkbooks. FWIW (not much), Iomega claims that it can't recover the data on a password-protected disk. However, they do export those things, so I doubt it's strong. Jer "standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQB1AwUBMumJOskz/YzIV3P5AQHLZAL+MJhEH/aCbB9BX5R4nY4BIRBOGZw8socG 39D0q+UT8sS3YsMaeL6GqfEo04lsnQwAUWtI0I8/FcqYlWVGxwsOAboK3BZmJz40 y3/GmUz5dUpz0PctKbGYYQj/w6pbt/6z =mv67 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Bill Stewart Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 02:10:45 -0800 (PST) To: John Young Subject: Re: PSS_sst Message-ID: <199701251010.CAA23794@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Bill Stewart Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 02:11:54 -0800 (PST) To: fuck you Subject: Re: [No Subject:] Message-ID: <199701251011.CAA23842@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hi! It's useful to include a subject line in email so people can decide whether to read it and have more context for it, though calling yourself "fuck you" will probably deter a few people. There are lots of anarchists on the net; you can run into some good discussions on Usenet on several newsgroups with "anarchy" or "anarchism" in the titles. Rec.caves has good underground material...... As far as decryption tools goes, they're pretty closely related to encryption algorithms. There's been a discussion, probably on cryptography@c2.org (subscribe via cryptography-request@c2.org) though maybe it was on cypherpunks, about designing a screen-saver DES-cracker. At 11:47 PM 1/23/97 EST, fuck you wrote: >If anyone has any text files on the following topics please send them. I >have many files if any one else needs them. > >PGP >Making decryption tools >Anarchy >Satan >Anything underground > > > # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jeremey Barrett Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 07:55:47 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Mailcrypt nym.alias.net support Message-ID: <199701251555.HAA28063@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- For those of you who use mailcrypt (Emacs-PGP interface) for email, I have hacked in support for pseudonyms ala nym.alias.net. In fact, the code has nym.alias.net hardcoded for now. I'm gonna add more stuff, but I'm just letting this out as is. This patch affects mailcrypt.el and mc-remail.el. I made these changes to mailcrypt 3.4, so your mileage may vary on other versions. I did this after the C2 party tonight, so typos and bugs are possible. Please email me if bugs are found. "This value is not configureable" does not qualify, I know it's not configureable yet. (BTW there are a couple functions not used, I was doing it one way, then changed my way of thinking, but the code is ok so I left it.) Installing it: o cd to your lisp directory o cat /path/to/the/patch | patch -p0, or something similar (You will need to pgp this message before extracting the patch to get rid of the leading "- " on some lines.) o recompile the .el files, ala: emacs -batch -f batch-byte-compile mc-remail.el emacs -batch -f batch-byte-compile mailcrypt.el Using it: o You _must_ have a remailer chain defined. This does not work with a single remailer (though a chain of length 1 might work). o Compose a message or reply as normal. Once you are done (the message would go out without nyms or remailers or anything if you hit C-c C-c), hit C-c / n. o The first question asks for a remailer chain, it will do completions. o The second question asks for the name of your nym. This is assumed to be @nym.alias.net, DO NOT include @nym.alias.net. If your nym is jimbob@nym.alias.net, just answer jimbob. This does not do completions at the moment. Putting your nym in your .emacs file is a bit weird anyway. o You will be asked for a signature for your nym's private key. o The message will be rewritten to send@nym.alias.net and then to the remailer chain you chose. o Send it. Hack the code at will, if you make significant enhancements, please email patches to me. Of course there is no warranty of any sort, if it blows up your machine you're out a machine. I will put this on my web page (http://www.veriweb.com/people/jeremey) for those that prefer that. Ok, here's the patch: - ---------------------------------cut here----------------------------------- *** mailcrypt.el Tue Oct 10 12:33:45 1995 - --- /usr/home/jeremey/PGP/mailcrypt-3.4/mailcrypt.el Sat Jan 25 02:45:27 1997 *************** *** 51,56 **** - --- 51,57 ---- (autoload 'mc-sign "mc-toplev" nil t) (autoload 'mc-insert-public-key "mc-toplev" nil t) (autoload 'mc-remailer-encrypt-for-chain "mc-remail" nil t) + (autoload 'mc-remailer-encrypt-for-nym "mc-remail" nil t) (autoload 'mc-remailer-insert-response-block "mc-remail" nil t) (autoload 'mc-remailer-insert-pseudonym "mc-remail" nil t) *************** *** 101,107 **** (define-key mc-write-mode-map "\C-c/b" 'mc-remailer-insert-response-block) (define-key mc-write-mode-map "\C-c/p" ! 'mc-remailer-insert-pseudonym))) (easy-menu-define mc-read-mode-menu (if mc-xemacs-p nil (list mc-read-mode-map)) - --- 102,110 ---- (define-key mc-write-mode-map "\C-c/b" 'mc-remailer-insert-response-block) (define-key mc-write-mode-map "\C-c/p" ! 'mc-remailer-insert-pseudonym) ! (define-key mc-write-mode-map "\C-c/n" ! 'mc-remailer-encrypt-for-nym))) (easy-menu-define mc-read-mode-menu (if mc-xemacs-p nil (list mc-read-mode-map)) *** mc-remail.el Wed Oct 4 15:45:56 1995 - --- /usr/home/jeremey/PGP/mailcrypt-3.4/mc-remail.el Sat Jan 25 02:44:16 1997 *************** *** 378,383 **** - --- 378,401 ---- (re-search-forward "^$" nil 'move) (cons (copy-marker start) (copy-marker (point))))))) + (defun mc-find-nym-from-header (name subject &optional insert) + ;; Find the header with a "::" immediately after the + ;; mail-header-separator. Return region enclosing header. Optional + ;; arg INSERT means insert the header if it does not exist already. + (save-excursion + (goto-char (point-min)) + (re-search-forward + (concat "^" (regexp-quote mail-header-separator) "\n")) + (if (or (and (looking-at "From") (forward-line 1)) + (and insert + (progn + (insert-before-markers + (concat "From: " name "\nTo: \nSubject:" subject "\n\n")) + (forward-line -1)))) + (let ((start (point))) + (re-search-forward "^$" nil 'move) + (cons (copy-marker start) (copy-marker (point))))))) + (defun mc-find-hash-header (&optional insert) (save-excursion (goto-char (point-min)) *************** *** 400,411 **** - --- 418,442 ---- (defsubst mc-replace-main-field (field replacement) (mc-replace-field field replacement (mc-find-main-header t))) + (defsubst mc-nuke-main-field (field) + (mc-nuke-field field (mc-find-main-header t))) + (defsubst mc-replace-hash-field (field replacement) (mc-replace-field field replacement (mc-find-hash-header t))) (defsubst mc-replace-colon-field (field replacement) (mc-replace-field field replacement (mc-find-colon-header t))) + (defsubst mc-insert-nym-header (replacement) + (mc-find-nym-from-header replacement + (cdr (car (mc-get-fields "Subject" + (mc-find-main-header)))) t) + (mc-replace-main-field "To" "send@nym.alias.net") + (mc-nuke-main-field "Cc") + (mc-nuke-main-field "Organization") + (mc-nuke-main-field "Subject") + (mc-nuke-main-field "From")) + (defun mc-recipient-is-remailerp () (let ((to (mc-get-fields "To" (mc-find-main-header)))) (and to *************** *** 516,521 **** - --- 547,568 ---- (setq pseudonym (concat pseudonym " "))) (mc-replace-colon-field "From" pseudonym))) + (defun mc-remailer-insert-nym-nym () + "Insert pseudonym as a From field in the hash-mark header. + + See the documentation for the variable `mc-remailer-pseudonyms' for + more information." + (interactive) + (let ((completion-ignore-case t) + pseudonym) + (setq pseudonym + (cond ((null mc-remailer-pseudonyms) + (read-from-minibuffer "Pseudonym: ")) + (t + (completing-read "Pseudonym: " + (mapcar 'list mc-remailer-pseudonyms))))) + (mc-insert-nym-header pseudonym))) + ;;}}} ;;{{{ Mixmaster support (defvar mc-mixmaster-path nil *************** *** 730,735 **** - --- 777,826 ---- (error "Unable to encrypt message to %s" (mc-remailer-userid remailer))))) + (defun mc-rewrite-for-nym-internal (nym &optional pause) + ;; Rewrite the current mail buffer for nym.alias.net. This + ;; includes pulling down the To: and Subject: headers, changing + ;; the To: header, and encrypting to send@nym.alias.net and signing + ;; with the nym's key. This should be used only as part of + ;; mc-rewrite-for-nym since it will subsequently chain the message + ;; through a set of remailers. + (let ((addr "send@nym.alias.net") + (main-header (mc-find-main-header))) + + ;; Move "Subject" lines down. + (goto-char (cdr main-header)) + (forward-line 1) + (mapcar + (function (lambda (f) (insert (car f) ":" (cdr f)))) + (mc-get-fields "Subject" main-header t)) + (insert "\n") + + ;; Move "To" lines down. + (goto-char (cdr main-header)) + (forward-line 1) + (mapcar + (function (lambda (f) (insert (car f) ":" (cdr f)))) + (mc-get-fields "To" main-header t)) + + ;; Insert "From" for nym.alias.net + (goto-char (cdr main-header)) + (forward-line 1) + (insert (concat "From: " nym "\n")) + + (goto-char (car main-header)) + (insert "To: send@nym.alias.net\n") + + (if pause + (let ((cursor-in-echo-area t)) + (message "SPC to encrypt for %s : " addr) + (read-char-exclusive))) + (setq main-header (mc-find-main-header)) + (goto-char (cdr main-header)) + (forward-line 1) + (let ((mc-encrypt-for-me nil)) + (mc-encrypt-message "send@nym.alias.net" nil (point) nil + (concat nym "@nym.alias.net") t)))) + (defun mc-rewrite-for-chain (chain &optional pause) ;; Rewrite the current buffer for a chain of remailers. ;; CHAIN must be in canonical form. *************** *** 744,749 **** - --- 835,856 ---- (mc-rewrite-for-remailer (car chain) pause) (mc-rewrite-for-mixmaster chain pause))))) + (defun mc-rewrite-for-nym (nym chain &optional pause) + ;; Rewrite the current buffer for nym.alias.net through a + ;; chain of remailers. CHAIN must be in canonical form. + ;; nym is assumed to be the nym's name WITHOUT @nym.alias.net on it. + (let (rest) + (if mc-mixmaster-path + (setq rest (mc-mixmaster-skip chain)) + (setq rest chain)) + (if (null chain) nil + (mc-rewrite-for-nym-internal nym pause) + (mc-rewrite-for-chain + (if (eq rest chain) (cdr rest) rest) pause) + (if (eq rest chain) + (mc-rewrite-for-remailer (car chain) pause) + (mc-rewrite-for-mixmaster chain pause))))) + (defun mc-unparse-chain (chain) ;; Unparse CHAIN into a string suitable for printing. (if (null chain) *************** *** 782,787 **** - --- 889,926 ---- (cdr (assoc chain-name chains)) chains)) (mc-rewrite-for-chain chain pause) + (if chain + (save-excursion + (set-buffer buffer) + (erase-buffer) + (insert "Rewritten for chain `" chain-name "':\n\n" + (mc-unparse-chain chain)) + (message "Done. See %s buffer for details." mc-buffer-name))))) + + ;;}}} + + (defun mc-remailer-encrypt-for-nym (&optional pause) + "Encrypt message for a nym server, to be resent, prompting for chain to use. + + With \\[universal-argument], pause before each encryption." + (interactive "P") + (let ((chains (mc-remailer-make-chains-alist)) + (buffer (get-buffer-create mc-buffer-name)) + chain-name chain nym) + (mc-nuke-field "CC") + (mc-nuke-field "Organization") + (mc-disallow-field "FCC") + (mc-disallow-field "BCC") + (setq chain-name + (completing-read + "Choose a remailer or chain: " chains nil 'strict-match)) + (setq nym + (read-from-minibuffer "Pseudonym: ")) + (setq chain + (mc-remailer-canonicalize-chain + (cdr (assoc chain-name chains)) + chains)) + (mc-rewrite-for-nym nym chain pause) (if chain (save-excursion (set-buffer buffer) - ---------------------------------cut here----------------------------------- - -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Jeremey Barrett Senior Software Engineer jeremey@veriweb.com VeriWeb Internet Corp. http://www.veriweb.com/ PGP Key fingerprint = 3B 42 1E D4 4B 17 0D 80 DC 59 6F 59 04 C3 83 64 PGP Public Key: http://www.veriweb.com/people/jeremey/pgpkey.txt "less is more." -- Mies van de Rohe. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.4, an Emacs/PGP interface iQCVAwUBMunrci/fy+vkqMxNAQHpQQQAkN8wQ+/65qsN4326gFRmEMjcwQH1mj2v /WZGnxyB2ADYlF0AMXfU60NzUO31KZzEbbOu8oX2I0KptXrDGiLYoQ6uerw/W441 1B4uAd2pEztqWwfwyYmLj57meQWJw1IjH7AuF0Mz9NJ7OLEWq+H5CC9w4zwo6u1/ nTrWv396Y6Q= =jpyn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "William H. Geiger III" Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 07:55:42 -0800 (PST) To: Toto Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list Message-ID: <199701251555.HAA28055@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <199701241411.GAA25271@toad.com>, on 01/24/97 at 09:09 AM, Toto said: > I would like to point out, however, that anyone who has had their >posts 'sorted' into the 'flames list' is now a 'known flamer', as >evidenced by the fact that their post has been designated a 'flame' >on a list run by a champion of free speech on the electronic >frontier. Intresting.... Does a single flame make a flamer?? I have in the past been involved in heated arguments on just about every list/newsgroup I have been involved in. :) I think this goes back to the topic of reputation capital. IMHO the occational message that get's droped into the 'flames list' would have little effect on ones reputation. While a complete ban all of ones posting or even a majority of ones posts making it to the 'flames list' could/would have a detrimtal effect. Hmmmm... Actually there could be an intresting side affect of a moderated list to a posters reputation. Lets take the following example: John Doe likes posting rants & flames 90% of the time. The other 10% of the time he posts intelegent messages. Now on an un-moderated list a majority of subscribers would get tierd of his rants, write him off as a kook and kill-file him. His 10% of intelegent posts would be lost in the 90% of noise and his reputation would be adversly effected within the group. Now on a moderated list the 90% of rants & flames would never be seen by the list only the other 10%. His would wind up having a much higher reputation among the group compaired to if all his posts were seen. I am not quite sure how to judge this effect. Should one take into account the kooky behavior of a poster when veiwing his 'non kooky' posts? Does moderation have a detrimental effect to establishing a reputation based system for a group (how would Don Woods reputation faired if his rant's on OTP's & ISP had been filtered out?) > It is obvious that some of the more intuitively intelligent list >members are aware of this, as is indicated by the nervous fear with >which they 'explain why' their post is crypto-relevant. IMHO this is sheepish though I have noticed it before moderation started. If I have somthing to post to the list I see no reason to justify why I am posting it. This post I am making now has zero crypto-relevance and I make no appoligies for it. Do I think it is relevant to the list? Yes otherwise I would not have posted it. Either way no explination for the post is needed. - -- - ----------------------------------------------------------- William H. Geiger III http://www.amaranth.com/~whgiii Geiger Consulting Cooking With Warp 4.0 Author of E-Secure - PGP Front End for MR/2 Ice PGP & MR/2 the only way for secure e-mail. Finger whgiii@amaranth.com for PGP Key and other info - ----------------------------------------------------------- Tag-O-Matic: See the Future; See OS/2. Be the Future; Run OS/2. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBMunqw49Co1n+aLhhAQEhUQQAikxVlOQuCQuNq2DoZgIhj85RvfaEOkvO 6QqoecASeunSyvh5gtXH+p6n3kq6i/NLAUwcmPYUtkdpKdPaRk4/OkhTVGNuVEHM eEQroUNNJ02g+42Gz9vEm2ZtWxWC9zAdIbmY/Hnw6SUyW/jgJKWNadd8Nh2HQYxV CXMUpweNbdg= =8pqg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Lucky Green Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:23:57 -0800 (PST) To: Hugh Daniel MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 06:29 PM 1/24/97 -0800, Hugh Daniel wrote: > FYI: >>From: jsp@betz.biostr.washington.edu [...] >> However, some hardware is required. Because the key is on a >> smartcard, users must have smartcard readers installed on their >> computers, which aren't yet widely available. But Pdr Andler of >> Finnish Hewlett Packard says that later this year, smartcard readers >> will become standard on computers in Scandinavia. [...] Interesting piece of trivia: I recently talked with a fellow from Intel. They are looking to purchase keyboards with smartcard readers built in. They hope to get them at $30/piece from suppliers in Asia. The lot size? 10 million. That's a lot of smartcard readers. Even for Intel. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime. http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Lucky Green Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:10:40 -0800 (PST) To: tekmasta@global.california.com Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: <199701251610.IAA28183@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 06:54 PM 1/24/97 -0800, tekmasta@global.california.com wrote: >can anyone help me out with getting pgp working... I just got 2.6.2 >excutable the freeware one and its for dos... I need to get one that works >with eudora or netscape.... please help! You want PGPMail. A free, full strength, beta is available at http://www.pgp.com/ PGPMail offers single click integration with Eudora. I use it myself. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime. http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:10:40 -0800 (PST) To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701251610.IAA28182@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote: > > John Gilmore is free to appoint > whoever he wants to moderate his list, he is free to censor all > messages which criticise him and his censorship, however, subscribers > to the list should be told they are being censored on these grounds > and not on some facade of "crypto relevancy" or another thin veil > drawn weakly over content based censorship to protect a certain class > of list members. It became rather glaringly obvious after moderation was announced that class structure would be the defining feature of moderation. Those who felt themselves to be in the 'upper class' made no bones about it. Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 07:55:31 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Cypher-Oops! Message-ID: <199701251555.HAA28047@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I was just wondering if the CypherPunks list is now the only list that has an Administrative introduction for list members that could not be posted in full to the list-proper, as it contains a flame against an individual. Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:23:51 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: testing email from airport kiosk Message-ID: <199701251623.IAA28381@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Bill Stewart writes: > An update on the SF airport kiosk email machines: ... > It does support anonymous email, in that you can type in > any email address you want, and it doesn't seem to mind. > In addition to limited web, telnet, and outgoing email, > it lets you retrieve email with POP3. Doesn't seem to be a way > to get it to run a program, though :-) My immediate guess would be that everyone using it gets videotaped, then all activity is logged, and that the LEAs are waiting for some idiot to use it to retrieve kiddie porn and/or terrorist bobm-making instructions. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Sandy Sandfort Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:55:41 -0800 (PST) To: Cypherpunks Subject: TEST--MODERATED Message-ID: <199701251655.IAA28657@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, We are still working out the bugs. This message is SUPPOSED to go only to the unedited list and the moderated list. If it shows up on the flames list, we have a bug. I'd like to have a couple of you (Toto? Dale Thorn?) let me know so we can trace down the problem and get it corrected. Thanks, S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Leonid S Knyshov Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 09:25:36 -0800 (PST) To: tekmasta@global.california.com Subject: Re: your mail Message-ID: <199701251725.JAA28987@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >try my site too http://gcwp.com/fadedimage > >can anyone help me out with getting pgp working... I just got 2.6.2 >excutable the freeware one and its for dos... I need to get one that >works >with eudora or netscape.... please help! Well the obvious answer is to RTFM (Note: F is for fine) on DOS version, its quite big. Also you seem to need Win PGP shell of some sort so that you won't have to type those commands, i memorised my commands on the 3rd day of usage so no big deal about shells. And then you cat'n'paste the code into your e-mail. In some cases you can set it up as a spell checker ;) Later. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Leonid S Knyshov Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 09:25:45 -0800 (PST) To: jer+@andrew.cmu.edu Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks Message-ID: <199701251725.JAA28995@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >"David E. Smith" writes: >> 7. Secure sensitive files. >> To keep sensitive or confidential information safe, store it >> on a Zip disk and use your Zip Tools software to assign a >> password that must be used in order to read from or write to >> the disk. At work, you can protect sensitive information >> such as personnel files, company directories, and product >> plans and designs. At home, you can secure personal >> information such as tax records, budgets, and computerized >> checkbooks. > >FWIW (not much), Iomega claims that it can't recover the data on a >password-protected disk. However, they do export those things, so I >doubt it's strong. Well, I think one way to find out is to create 2 identical zip disks and encrypt them with different passwords. Then do sector by sector compare and see where the beast is hiding at :) Leo. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Alan Olsen Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 09:55:35 -0800 (PST) To: Hugh Daniel Subject: Re: Scandinavian Goverments provide PGP to postal customers... Message-ID: <199701251755.JAA29418@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> However, some hardware is required. Because the key is on a >> smartcard, users must have smartcard readers installed on their >> computers, which aren't yet widely available. But Pdr Andler of >> Finnish Hewlett Packard says that later this year, smartcard readers >> will become standard on computers in Scandinavia. "It is a really >> big help for users, who don't have to remember dozens of >> passwords when using different kind of services," Andler says. Didn't HP have a GAKed smartcard they were pushing? I wonder if anyone is going to make assurances that no one is spliting the keys with the soundman... -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQEVAwUBMuo9reQCP3v30CeZAQFl+gf+JXHoo2WAenGiHQuEFQcaxiAZ6SPQJE/K PSBUqgksy+tcvcr8JsLGkkIDZLrJ9B0LaVp2wbbZY2j6YtcsGCgBW0WLXeXbKJve e0L8epy1GHWPO3d8peiI4InnZaXWM815+TSI2aUDX+NBLMNIkX6/k4muwQtW6KAo ysApcbxBWeyARWklyL3pCQyYRulPhtiPjlQ3g8dFVjx3PUhOmdTuK7rjCNo502MO quXS07kkUFYhn53Mej4r90NZ88awdCKjytsDcIYVTZxY8sBanZ4Qux0OYGvwqfyr fY2Hfd4GFBw/6FPLHn2IWD9AH5O7TudPOC4SAiLTymBGDct8vtBBUg== =fF/v -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --- | If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate. | |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/ |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com| From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Lou Zer Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:10:36 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: [No Subject:] Message-ID: <199701251610.IAA28175@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Sat, 25 Jan 1997 00:30:57 -0800 Bill Stewart writes: >Hi! It's useful to include a subject line in email so people >can decide whether to read it and have more context for it, >though calling yourself "fuck you" will probably deter a few people. >There are lots of anarchists on the net; you can run into some good >discussions on Usenet on several newsgroups with "anarchy" or >"anarchism" >in the titles. Rec.caves has good underground material...... You missed the hole point. You read that BECAUSE their was no header, if it was ANARCHY you would have just deleted it. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 12:55:42 -0800 (PST) To: Bill Stewart Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) Message-ID: <199701252055.MAA02659@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Bill Stewart wrote: > At 07:38 PM 1/23/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > One of the points of the Ebonics program is to recognize that > other people don't always speak the same way you do, and that > if you want to communicate with them, you'll be more successful > if you realize it, understand when they're talking in their dialect, I could agree with "some of the points" of the Ebonics program were it not for the fact of the hidden points. Unbeknownst to most folks, supporting a program on any erstwhile points will give support to the program on *all* points. One specific example: When I worked for Firestone corporate from 1970 to 1981, we were bullied into giving to the United Fund. (BTW, I learned how much my boss was making by reading the punches on the IBM cards.) The one bone they tossed us was we could specify which worthy causes our personal contribution would go towards. The trick was, if a certain greater-than-expected number of people specified a Catholic charity, for example, more funds would then be moved into the other charities to balance that out. Presumably those funds would come from those folks who hadn't declared a designee. In my view, once the contributors' specific designations were made, the remaining undesignated contributions should have been split across the designees according to the original percentages declared in the U.F. literature. Anything else would be a farce. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Lou Zer Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:10:29 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: HELLO Message-ID: <199701251610.IAA28150@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Is ESDES a good program? From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 12:55:35 -0800 (PST) To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Subject: Re: overview.htm Message-ID: <199701252055.MAA02651@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > Jim Choate writes: > [For the record, I have serious doubts whether the HIV virus causes AIDS.] Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune problems. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:23:59 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: encrypt_1.html Message-ID: <199701251623.IAA28393@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Reuters New Media [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ] [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard | Entertain | Health ] _________________________________________________________________ Previous Story: Texas Instruments Posts Loss, Stock Soars Next Story: FCC Chief Asks If Policy Should Focus On Internet _________________________________________________________________ Friday January 24 10:08 AM EST US Senator Will Reintroduce Encryption Export Bill WASHINGTON - Sen. Conrad Burns will reintroduce next week his measure to substantially eliminate export restrictions on computer encoding technology, a spokesman for the Senator says. "We are aiming for the 28th (of January) and it will be the same bill as last year," Matt Raymond, spokesman for the Montana Republican, said. President Clinton signed an executive order in November slightly relaxing export controls on encryption technology -- computer programs that use mathematical formulas to scramble information and render it unreadable without a password or software "key." But many in Congress and the computer industry have said the new Clinton policy did not go far enough to lift the Cold War era export limits that classified most encryption programs as munitions. Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved _________________________________________________________________ ________________________ ___________ Help _________________________________________________________________ Previous Story: Texas Instruments Posts Loss, Stock Soars Next Story: FCC Chief Asks If Policy Should Focus On Internet _________________________________________________________________ [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard | Entertain | Health ] _________________________________________________________________ Reuters Limited Questions or Comments From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Adam Shostack Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:55:54 -0800 (PST) To: Jeremiah A Blatz Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks Message-ID: <199701251655.IAA28677@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Paul Kocher announced that he has cracked it, and can recover data quickly. He is not publishing details of the break. Adam Jeremiah A Blatz wrote: -- Start of PGP signed section. | "David E. Smith" writes: | > 7. Secure sensitive files. | > To keep sensitive or confidential information safe, store it | > on a Zip disk and use your Zip Tools software to assign a | > password that must be used in order to read from or write to | > the disk. At work, you can protect sensitive information | > such as personnel files, company directories, and product | > plans and designs. At home, you can secure personal | > information such as tax records, budgets, and computerized | > checkbooks. | | FWIW (not much), Iomega claims that it can't recover the data on a | password-protected disk. However, they do export those things, so I | doubt it's strong. | | Jer | | "standing on top of the world/ never knew how you never could/ never knew | why you never could live/ innocent life that everyone did" -Wormhole -- End of PGP signed section. -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: DataETRsch@aol.com Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 09:55:31 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Public Key Partners Message-ID: <199701251755.JAA29412@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hello, Do you know of a way I can contact Public Key Partners by e-mail or phone? Thanks. Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos President DataET Research Data Engineering Technologies From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: John Young Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 12:55:48 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: US Info Supremacy Message-ID: <199701252055.MAA02667@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >From Financial Times 26 January: "Defence experts in both the US and western Europe have commented recently that the US forces' lead in information technology is growing to the point where Washington may question the military usefulness of allies." Pointers to these comments would be appreciated. Further, if the speculation of US supremacist go-it-alone policy is correct, how might this affect: 1. US crypto export policy. 2. Crypto czar Aarons' role in promoting global GAK. 3. Other nation's suspicion of the US and its technological prowess, caused, for example, by the NSA's avowed intention to surveil all the world's communcation, and if encrypted to crack it at any cost. 4. Increasing isolation of the US from foreign innovation and talent -- the imperialist incest decline. 5. The future of treaties such as US/UK/AUS, NATO, SEATO, and the like for intel-sharing and crypto control. Two observations: One, last year's NRC crypto report said that strong crypto should not be a problem, and that other, unidentified, technologies should be supported instead to assure domestic and national security. Two, the recent InfoWar-Defense report has been criticized as unduly alarmist, because the US has sufficient means (Perry and others claim) to protect against information attacks. One NCSC commentator on talk.politics.crypto said that the IW-D techie panelists were out of touch, unlike Stewart Baker, a lawyer! Hence, it might be worth considering that both the NRC report and the IW-D reports are diversionary, disinformation to conceal US true capabilities -- strengths and weaknesses. Moreover, the crypto debate itself might be diversionary from other more crucial information defense technology -- for surveilling, sifting, interpreting, analyzing, decrypting, mining and securely storing. As well as offensive means to counterattack US communications attackers. Or, turning the matter one more time, perhaps crypto is in fact the heart of the national security problem and the avowed other, unidentified, more crucial, technology is a sham to mislead about US and other government's true weaknesses. The Commerce Control List is almost incoherent in trying to definitively regulate advancing technology. Paranoia may be increasing among governments due to the crypto debate and related issues of information security, such that each may, like the US is allegedly doing, retreating to within its own technological borders, while at the same time engaging in PsyWar about threats, defenses and offenses. Hello, Tim May and our other solons and Solomons. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 14:12:46 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701252212.OAA03646@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Forwarded message: > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 10:31:49 -0800 > From: Dale Thorn > Subject: Re: overview.htm > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > Jim Choate writes: > > > [For the record, I have serious doubts whether the HIV virus causes AIDS.] > > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune > problems. WOAH Bessie! I had nothing to do with this exchange, and definitely didn't write ANY of the above. Please get me out of there and keep me out of it. I am more than able to speak for myself thank you. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage@ssz.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 14:10:57 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) Message-ID: <199701252210.OAA03633@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Forwarded message: > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 10:19:20 -0800 > From: Dale Thorn > Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) > Precedence: bulk > > Bill Stewart wrote: > > At 07:38 PM 1/23/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: I most certainly did NOT... > > One of the points of the Ebonics program is to recognize that > > other people don't always speak the same way you do, and that > > if you want to communicate with them, you'll be more successful > > if you realize it, understand when they're talking in their dialect, > > I could agree with "some of the points" of the Ebonics program were > it not for the fact of the hidden points. Unbeknownst to most folks, > supporting a program on any erstwhile points will give support to the > program on *all* points. Looks like Bessie could use a refresher course in: * Getting their sources correct * Using their mail/editing package * Basic rules of courtesy Folks, if you can't get it straight, keep your damn editor buffers empty. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage@ssz.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Lucky Green Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:10:38 -0800 (PST) To: Adam Shostack Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks Message-ID: <199701260110.RAA05992@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 11:40 AM 1/25/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote: > >Paul Kocher announced that he has cracked it, and can recover data >quickly. He is not publishing details of the break. Why? -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime. http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Steve Schear Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:10:35 -0800 (PST) To: DataETRsch@aol.com Subject: Re: Public Key Partners Message-ID: <199701260110.RAA05986@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >Hello, > >Do you know of a way I can contact Public Key Partners by e-mail or phone? >Thanks. > >Jeremy K. Yu-Ramos >President >DataET Research >Data Engineering Technologies PKP is really just a holding/licensing company. Last time I heard Bob Fougner was still legal council to PKP. You should be able to contact him through Cylink Corp. (800) 600-5858. -- Steve P.S. Tell him hello from me. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Julian Assange Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 02:10:58 -0800 (PST) To: meditation@gnu.ai.mit.edu Subject: language drift Message-ID: <199701251010.CAA23802@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain One of my projects involves tracking language drift; i.e the relative change in word frequency on the internet as time goes by. This is useful for predicting concept movement, and the anglisization rates of non-English language countries. Now, one day while browsing the frequencies from the 10 billion word corpus, what do I see? God 2,177,242 America 2,178,046 designed 2,181,106 five 2,189,194 December 2,190,028 ;) -Julian Assange From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Lou Poppler Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 15:40:46 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Voting to require Photo ID in Michigan Message-ID: <199701252340.PAA04730@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Late last year, in the final days that Republicans controlled both houses of the Michigan Legislature, they passed a new law requiring citizen-units to show a picture ID in order to vote. This law was signed by Governor John Engler earlier this month. Here I reproduce without permission a news brief from the Lansing State Journal, which gives some reactions to the new law. Particularly interesting to me is the promise of selective enforcement from the Governor's spokesman. ' LAWMAKER SEEKS VOTER LAW REVIEW ' Pontiac -- A Republican lawmaker has asked the U.S. Justice ' Department to review a new state law that will require voters to show ' photo identification to cast ballots. ' Rep. Greg Kaza of Rochester Hills wrote to Attorney General Janet ' Reno this week to seek the review, The Oakland Press reported Thursday. ' The new law requires all voters to have a state photo ID card, such ' as a driver's license or an ID card people receiving public assistance ' are required to have. ' Kaza said Wednesday he wrote to Reno that "Public Act 583 of 1996 ' has the potential to intimidate certain classes of voters, including ' senior citizens, from exercising their democratic right to vote. They ' should not be disenfranchised from exercising their right to vote ' under the United States Constitution." ' Gov. John Engler signed the bill last week. His administration ' says it is needed to protect the integrity of the voting process, but ' critics, mostly Democrats, say it would exclude some people from voting. ' "It is our belief you need an ID in society today," Engler spokesman ' John Truscott said. "And only if you are challenged at the ballot box ' do you have to show an ID." ' Michigan Attorney General Frank Kelley already has been asked to ' issue an opinion on whether the new law is constitutional. :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: "We are surrounded by :: Lou Poppler :: insurmountable opportunity." :: http://www.msen.com/~lwp/ :: :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: -- Pogo (Walt Kelly) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Anil Das Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:18:20 -0800 (PST) To: James Robertson Subject: Re: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7 Message-ID: <199701291518.HAA03774@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Jan 25, 10:49am, James Robertson wrote: > > Are there any efforts being made to develop a version of the > software that can be used by us non-US residents? > > I would certainly like to participate in the Challenge. I'm > sure there are many other interested people out there, in the > big wide world ... No such development outside the US has been publicized. However, it is easy enough to roll your own. What you need: 1) Eric Young's libdes. ftp://ftp.psy.uq.oz.au/pub/Crypto/DES 2) Svend Olaf Mikkelsen's fast replacement for the core DES routine. http://inet.uni-c.dk/~svolaf/des.htm The latest libdes is supposed to have this faster routine incorporated already, so you may not need it. 3) Peter Trei's article on "Optimizing DES Key Recovery in Software". It is available at HKS's news server. news://nntp.hks.net/<199610171918.MAA23054@toad.com> For a first pass, you can just implement the Gray Code technique. That gives most of the speedup. 4) Some information on how to implement Gray Codes. "The Gray Code" by Robert W. Doran. Tech Report 131 from http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~techrep/1996.html Given these resources, it shouldn't take long for a good programmer to implement a DES key search program that is in the same ballpark of performance as Peter Trei's implementation. -- Anil Das From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Bill Stewart Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:25:52 -0800 (PST) To: Lou Zer Subject: Re: HELLO Message-ID: <199701260125.RAA06242@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 10:31 AM 1/25/97 EST, Lou Zer wrote: >Is ESDES a good program? > > > No clue - got a pointer to where it lives? Also, a Subject line is a good way to let people know what your mail is about.... - like Subject: ESDES? Is ESDES a good program? It's at http://really-cool-warez.com/elite/trustme/warez.html # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Bill Stewart Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:26:01 -0800 (PST) To: Bill Campbell Subject: Re: Anyone have info on foreign "ITARS" Message-ID: <199701260126.RAA06257@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 09:01 PM 1/24/97 +0000, Bill Campbell wrote: >Does anyone have any pointers to info about the import/export >restrictions on encryption products in various countries. I know any From : "Bert-Jaap Koops" Subj : Crypto Law Survey updated Date : Thu, 9 Jan 1997 09:38:31 MET Forward? : No Return : owner-cryptography@c2.net --------------------------------------------------------------- I have just updated my survey of existing and envisaged cryptography laws and regulations. It now also includes a What's new section. This update contains among others updates on the OECD, Germany, France, Netherlands, the new US export regulations, and the Bernstein case. See the Crypto Law Survey at http://cwis.kub.nl/~frw/people/koops/lawsurvy.htm # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Bill Stewart Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:26:02 -0800 (PST) To: Hugh Daniel Subject: Re: Scandinavian Goverments provide PGP to postal customers... Message-ID: <199701260126.RAA06258@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 06:29 PM 1/24/97 -0800, Hugh Daniel wrote: >> Based on PGP, with no "third-party" key holder, the Nordic system >> uses unbreakable RSA-algorithm encryption with a 1024-bit key. >> However, some hardware is required. Because the key is on a >> smartcard, users must have smartcard readers installed on their >> computers, which aren't yet widely available. But Pdr Andler of >> Finnish Hewlett Packard says that later this year, smartcard readers Guess what - it's still got "key escrow"! If you've got a smartcard that holds your key, then you've got something well-defined that can be subpoenaed.... It's better than Yankee-style giving the government your keys in advance, but it's still key escrow. On the other hand, it's voluntary, and if it interoperates with Real PGP, then great - but will there be an expectation that you need to have your key signed by The Post Office to use it? # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:11:07 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701260111.RAA06011@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Jim Choate writes: > > > Jim Choate writes: > > > > > [For the record, I have serious doubts whether the HIV virus causes AIDS. > > > > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot > > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough > > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune > > problems. > > WOAH Bessie! Jim and Dale, I agree. Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:41:03 -0800 (PST) To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701260341.TAA08101@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > > [For the record, I have serious doubts whether the HIV virus causes AIDS. > > > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot > > > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough > > > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune > > > problems. > Jim and Dale, I agree. > Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps. My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis- proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems. It suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a healthy person can get it from the virii alone. One could argue that in the cases where the cures (antibiotics) add to a person's problems by further corrupting their immune system, that they should simply change their habits. Since I don't see that as a reasonable possibility, the only thing left is that the public should be made aware of *all* of the relevant facts, even those which are heavily suppressed now for PC reasons. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:40:54 -0800 (PST) To: Jim Choate Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701260340.TAA08079@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Jim Choate wrote: > Forwarded message: > > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 10:31:49 -0800 > > From: Dale Thorn > > Subject: Re: overview.htm > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > Jim Choate writes: [snip] > WOAH Bessie! > I had nothing to do with this exchange, and definitely didn't write ANY of > the above. Please get me out of there and keep me out of it. I am more than > able to speak for myself thank you. I don't know what could have happened. I use the Netscape email editor in stupid mode, i.e., I just press the buttons, I don't have any idea how it works. Sorry! From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Steve Schear Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:40:50 -0800 (PST) To: Adam Shostack Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks Message-ID: <199701260340.TAA08071@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >Paul Kocher announced that he has cracked it, and can recover data >quickly. He is not publishing details of the break. > >Adam Shostack Sorry, I don't believe it any more than I believe other unsubstantiated crypto claims. Publish the code/method for others to verify or keep the clains to yourself Paul. --Steve From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Mark M." Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:10:40 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Cellular location... Message-ID: <199701260110.RAA06000@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Fri, 24 Jan 1997 aaron@herringn.com wrote: > Presented in a "this will help 911" context. Still disconcerting. > > [...] > Companies working on the technology to track cellular phone calls > have been given additional incentive with a Federal Communications > Commission order that all cell phone service companies have location > programs in place by the year 2001. > [...] I wonder how expensive it would be to put a GPS receiver in a cell phone and have the option to transmit the coordinates on a separate channel. There would be little difference between this and forcing cell phone companies to triangulate every call. The primary motivation for this is almost certainly "location escrow" to make it easier for the feds to track drug dealers. Mark -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3 Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBMuqrJizIPc7jvyFpAQEmsAf+KysBgt9xRDg/Wp0yJ+jTBEwueVMZu0vB z9KtEOQDLCZkd7bzzIeJwjXochpA5fqlXetP/pRyAT058ewE2OEYz3SgK2zwz3s/ LRTFHRAIdj4f/+7PTKx6LvoN4NPvKOssqZ4KpX/YYNm/pHhe7eKCY8uV2AEXnoxz bfs6FgLDYhEtdBYhQGhSbRUgl0MrdW6crmEredavCkZCuqf6G6YOZ7PB1kGK3ZlH QqIkcDrV2RewY738KuKRb1xsQJHtSC8hgchM6eYY6qpac0BkpQLESo4777wv/5/a oDMP/ubR8cXokEzQgmhRo8eeHCXBJ8tiKOkKzstkTAdSGOONlc9ttQ== =j7WP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:40:40 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Mis-quote... Message-ID: <199701260340.TAA08048@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hi, I want to thank all those who sent me email apologizing for the mis-quote. Your courtesy is appreciated. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage@ssz.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: blanc Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:10:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE: US Info Supremacy Message-ID: <199701260510.VAA09124@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain From: John Young Hello, Tim May and our other solons and Solomons. ................................................................ He must be on vacation; he hasn't posted in quite a while. .. Blanc From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Steve Schear Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:55:33 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Cellular location... Message-ID: <199701260655.WAA10130@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > >On Fri, 24 Jan 1997 aaron@herringn.com wrote: > >> Presented in a "this will help 911" context. Still disconcerting. >> >> [...] >> Companies working on the technology to track cellular phone calls >> have been given additional incentive with a Federal Communications >> Commission order that all cell phone service companies have location >> programs in place by the year 2001. >> [...] > Looks like this might create an opportunity for 'anonymous' cellular rentals. --Steve From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:56:15 -0800 (PST) To: Igor Chudov Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701260656.WAA10209@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > Dale Thorn wrote: > > > > > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot > > > > > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough > > > > > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune > > > > > problems. > > > Jim and Dale, I agree. > > > Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps. > > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis- > > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems. It > > suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated > > or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a > > healthy person can get it from the virii alone. > > One could argue that in the cases where the cures (antibiotics) add to > > a person's problems by further corrupting their immune system, that > > they should simply change their habits. Since I don't see that as a > > reasonable possibility, the only thing left is that the public should > > be made aware of *all* of the relevant facts, even those which are > > heavily suppressed now for PC reasons. > Why do they take antibiotics? Just curious. I'm not precisely sure, but remember, I'm not saying that your typical suburban, well-to-do, successful gay male falls into this category. There are, OTOH, a lot of people in the city who have lifestyles which are not represented accurately in the prime-time sitcoms, and the ones who fall into the greatest health-risk category are IV drug users and gay males (in the city, remember - i.e., Santa Monica boulevard). Remember too those ads for male sexual lubricants - you cannot use a condom with those lubricants. Safe sex, I don't think so. > Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system, > has that been proven? You're kidding, yes? Anything besides good food, exercise, sleep etc. is bad for the immune system. Antibiotics (usually "dead" germs of some sort) are horrendous things to inject directly into your system. In October 1959, after lapsing into a coma from a massive sinus infection, I was given "a million units of penicillin" in the children's hospital when first admitted. I recovered OK after two weeks, so I'm certainly not opposed to antibiotics for those who really need them. OTOH, our U.S. economy today is antibiotic- and-hormone crazy, injecting cows, pigs, and chickens to name a few animals, all in the hopes of raising production. So why is the rate of cancer going up so high? It seems nearly everyone I know is getting this degenerate disease when they get older. Check out the videos by Howard Lyman, who used to be a big-time "chemical" farmer. One quote: "My soil after a few years was like asbestos". From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: jim bell Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:55:58 -0800 (PST) To: Lucky Green MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 05:44 AM 1/25/97 -0800, Lucky Green wrote: >At 06:29 PM 1/24/97 -0800, Hugh Daniel wrote: >> FYI: >>>From: jsp@betz.biostr.washington.edu >[...] >>> However, some hardware is required. Because the key is on a >>> smartcard, users must have smartcard readers installed on their >>> computers, which aren't yet widely available. But Pdr Andler of >>> Finnish Hewlett Packard says that later this year, smartcard readers >>> will become standard on computers in Scandinavia. >[...] > >Interesting piece of trivia: I recently talked with a fellow from Intel. They are looking to purchase keyboards with smartcard readers built in. They hope to get them at $30/piece from suppliers in Asia. The lot size? 10 million. I suppose this is good news. I just hope they implement a system, like Chaum's low-knowledge/zero-knowledge systems, which make it difficult or impossible for snoops or tampered hardware to leak useful information. Jim Bell jimbell@pacifier.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:10:54 -0800 (PST) To: "Mark M." Subject: Cellular phone triangulation Message-ID: <199701260710.XAA10387@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Mark M. wrote: > I wonder how expensive it would be to put a GPS receiver in a cell phone and > have the option to transmit the coordinates on a separate channel. There > would be little difference between this and forcing cell phone companies to > triangulate every call. > The primary motivation for this is almost certainly > "location escrow" to make it easier for the feds to track drug dealers. Replace the words 'drug dealers' with the words 'everyone', and I think this becomes not only a correct statement, but a very revealing one. It doesn't matter whether the subject is crypto, cell phones, or any communications item or issue, the 'answer' to the proclaimed 'problem', according to the government, is to increase the government's ability to monitor every citizen, everywhere, at any time. Our prisons are overflowing with drug dealers and drug users who were put there by quite ordinary means which didn't involve violating or discarding the rights of the ordinary citizen. Yet we keep hearing cries from the government for the desperate need to infringe on the citizen's right to freedom and privacy, again and again, in order to jail the guys who were supposed to be jailed by the 'last' infringement on the average citizen (and the one before that). So far, as a result of the plethora of laws passed to enable law enforcement agencies to 'catch drug dealers', I have seen only a few minor criminals who are claimed to have been brought to justice as a result of these laws, while seeing documentation of hundreds and thousands of ordinary citizens being harassed and having their human rights violated by these same laws. And still, we have people like Mark, who seem relatively intelligent and informed but who still echo the party-line of Big Brother when He proclaims that the average citizen must be subjected to new and better ways to monitor the movements and activities of His citizens in order to 'protect' them from 'drug dealers'. I am certain that the issues (and the debates about them) will be the same as today, when the dawn finally comes where we hear the announcement about the plans for identity-chip body-implants. I am sure that the government will tell us that our privacy and rights will be protected by the Key Escrow encryption in the identity-chip which will only be compromised for the purpose of catching 'drug dealers' and other 'scum'. I am sure that the statement above will be pooh-paah'd by many as an example of reactionary-paranoid thinking, but the same could be said for all of the rights and privacy-infringing realities that we currently live under. (Like having to provide samples of bodily fluids to keep your job as a janitor--in case you've been dipping into the coke stash of the CEO, who does 'not' have to piss in a jar.) Five years from now, you may well be wearing an identity-anklet at work (to combat employee-theft, etc.) and still laughing at my ludicrous example of body-implant identity-chips. ("It's not like they make us wear them at home, they are just for protecting us from unfair firing by our employer.") Ten years from now, you may be wearing your identity-anklet at home, and still laughing about the idiot who predicted body-implant identity-chips. ("It's no trouble wearing it at home, especially if it helps catch those damn 'drug dealers'. They are the only ones who leave their house during the curfew hours, anyway.") A couple years after that, you will welcome the government announcement that they have found a solution to the 'problem' of having to wear the identity-anklet all of the time--the new, improved, identity-chip solution--the body-implant ID-chip. Naturally, you will pooh-paah the naysayers who claim that the body-implant chip will eventually have the capacity to read your mind. ("The guy saying that is the same idiot who predicted that we would all be wearing body-implant identity-chips... "Well, OK, that's a bad example, but...") You can fight the increasing hi-tech machinations of Big Brother to control our actions, movements, and our thoughts, but it will cost an increasing amount of time and effort to do so. Not to mention larger and larger amounts of money. But, maybe if you became a 'drug dealer'... Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:56:13 -0800 (PST) To: Igor Chudov Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701260656.WAA10208@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > Dale Thorn wrote: > > > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis- > > > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems. It > > > suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated > > > or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a > > > healthy person can get it from the virii alone. > Dale's hypothesis seems at odds with the linkage of aids and blood > transfusion and transmission through needles. > Nurses who contract aids through contaminated needles do not, > normally, have devastated immune systems. Let's be realistic about how AIDS is acquired. A small analogy: In my pockets I carry two wallets, one with $100's and the other with smaller change, about 50 bills in various small denominations. Let's say tomorrow I spend a $10 bill at the bookstore, and the guy behind the counter says "this is a phony bill". So where did I get it? Well, if pocket change were always LIFO (last in, first out), I might be able to remember, but there's a good chance I wouldn't, since I go to a lot of places and do a lot of small transactions. Now I'm only talking 50 or so small bills, acquired and redistributed over a period of at most a few months. AIDS, OTOH, is likely to be a development from years of 1) Contact with germs, chemicals, food additives, antibiotics other medical treatments, sexual contact, etc. and 2) Immune-suppressing activities such as lack of sleep and exercise, anxiety and stress, and so on. It seems to me that "proof" of someone acquiring AIDS from one stab with a contaminated needle is a very nebulous thing. As far as nurses go, the contact I've had with many of them tells me they are also (on average) drug users extraordinaire. Again, you'll be able to find a very clean hospital in a big city with a bunch of nice clean nurses in it (a lot of sweet old ladies is the image coming to mind), but this is as unrealistic as Leave It To Beaver and other 1950's nonsense. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:10:51 -0800 (PST) To: Igor Chudov Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701260710.XAA10386@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > Dale Thorn wrote: > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > Remember too those ads for male sexual lubricants - you cannot use > > a condom with those lubricants. Safe sex, I don't think so. > That does not come close to a theory that would explain HIV away. The virus I believe is best explained by the numerous articles that were published in the 1970's on "gene splicing", and the fact that we now have two certified (official) government requests on paper that call for the development of an agent precisely like HIV, which were in fact funded. One was requested in 1979 (I think) by someone representing the Ft. Detrick folks ($10 million), and the other request was formally made by the World Health Organization. Why would the WHO want to develop a nasty bug like HIV? Use your imagination. Does the virus actually cause the immune collapse? That's still controversial, from what I hear. Try to find some of the material by Jakob Segal, who is heavily suppressed in the USA. Also check out Jon Rappaport (who also did some excellent on-the-spot interviews in OKC after the bombing), also Dr. Robert Strecker, whose brother was murdered trying to investigate the political threads of the origins of AIDS/HIV. > > In October 1959, after lapsing into a coma from a massive sinus > > infection, I was given "a million units of penicillin" in the > > children's hospital when first admitted. I recovered OK after > > two weeks, so I'm certainly not opposed to antibiotics for those > > who really need them. OTOH, our U.S. economy today is antibiotic- > > and-hormone crazy, injecting cows, pigs, and chickens to name a few > > animals, all in the hopes of raising production. So why is the rate > > of cancer going up so high? It seems nearly everyone I know is > > getting this degenerate disease when they get older. Check out the > > videos by Howard Lyman, who used to be a big-time "chemical" farmer. > > One quote: "My soil after a few years was like asbestos". > > As far as I understand, 1) no one really understands why cancer rates > are up so much and 2) since people live longer, they are more likely do > have cancer. True if all other things are equal. Try subtracting out some of the cancer factors, and perhaps they'd die of something else. > What you said is one of the hypotheses. I personally feel that > environment and bad greasy food are other major contributors. The > way they cook all these fries, with overheated grease, is very bad. Try an interesting experiment. Get an ordinary hamburger at McDonald's. Take the "meat" out of the bun and break it in half, then hold the broken edge up to your nose. It helps to have good sense of smell, but you'll probably get the picture anyway. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Lucky Green Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:10:35 -0800 (PST) To: jim bell MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 09:50 PM 1/25/97 -0800, jim bell wrote: >>Interesting piece of trivia: I recently talked with a fellow from Intel. They are looking to purchase keyboards with smartcard readers built in. They hope to get them at $30/piece from suppliers in Asia. The lot size? 10 million. > > >I suppose this is good news. I just hope they implement a system, like >Chaum's low-knowledge/zero-knowledge systems, which make it difficult or >impossible for snoops or tampered hardware to leak useful information. I understand that Intel's main problem at this time seem to be to find a keyboard manufacturer that understands that for the device to be effective, the CPU should not be involved in its operation. -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime. http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:56:07 -0800 (PST) To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701260656.WAA10195@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > Toto writes: > > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote: > > It became rather glaringly obvious after moderation was announced > > that class structure would be the defining feature of moderation. > > Those who felt themselves to be in the 'upper class' made no > > bones about it. > > That's a very insightful obeservation. Obese-rvation? I hope you are not assuming that I am obese, just because I am responding to a post originating from 'fatmans.demon.co.uk.' I would hate to become relegated to the upcoming cypherpunks-fatpeople list because of assumptions of this nature. Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Sandy Sandfort Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:55:42 -0800 (PST) To: Toto Subject: Re: Corelation Message-ID: <199701260755.XAA11016@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Toto wrote: > Has anyone actually 'seen' John Gilmore, lately? Since there > have been a number of postings indicating that the writer > 'used to respect' Gilmore, I am wondering if perhaps this > moderation experiment is not actually an attempt by someone > to discredit him. Well I saw John last night at the C2Net party, but I guess that's not much reassurance. :-) S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: ichudov@algebra.com Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:55:46 -0800 (PST) To: Dale Thorn Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701260655.WAA10146@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dale Thorn wrote: > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > > > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot > > > > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough > > > > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune > > > > problems. > > > Jim and Dale, I agree. > > Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps. > > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis- > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems. It > suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated > or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a > healthy person can get it from the virii alone. > > One could argue that in the cases where the cures (antibiotics) add to > a person's problems by further corrupting their immune system, that > they should simply change their habits. Since I don't see that as a > reasonable possibility, the only thing left is that the public should > be made aware of *all* of the relevant facts, even those which are > heavily suppressed now for PC reasons. Why do they take antibiotics? Just curious. Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system, has that been proven? - Igor. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:10:31 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Corelation Message-ID: <199701260710.XAA10352@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain My database seems to indicate a direct co-relation between the number of postings criticizing moderation and the number of UCE/Spam postings showing up on the list. i.e. When there are a number of postings critizizing Sandy's moderation, then the diversionary UCE/Spam postings increase dramatically. Has anyone actually 'seen' John Gilmore, lately? Since there have been a number of postings indicating that the writer 'used to respect' Gilmore, I am wondering if perhaps this moderation experiment is not actually an attempt by someone to discredit him. Perhaps he is being held hostage somewhere, while the more nefarious elements among us are trying to besmirch his good name by using it to promote willy-nilly censorship and class-elitism. Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Bill Stewart Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 07:40:36 -0800 (PST) To: DataETRsch@aol.com Subject: Re: Public Key Partners Message-ID: <199701261540.HAA17919@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 12:50 PM 1/25/97 -0500, DataETRsch@aol.com wrote: >Do you know of a way I can contact Public Key Partners by e-mail or phone? >Thanks. Time travel? (PKP dissolved when the partners sued each other. There's a Cylink ex-partner, and an RSA ex-partner, available at www.*.com ) # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Attila T. Hun" Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 16:55:30 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com> Subject: Re: Homo/bi/sexuals (no_one@nowhere.org) Message-ID: <199701260055.QAA05799@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <199701250956.BAA23557@toad.com>, on 01/24/97 at 10:53 PM, no_one@nowhere.org gurgled: + And the CDC is the Centers for Disease Control; and it has since +found many, many prior cases of AIDS. These three minor errors are +indicative of Attila's reliability of the subject. Of course, no one +at CDC or NIH believes any of this crap; it was tired a decade ago. A man is known by the company he keeps; floating nyms are the mark of a coward; why not just wear the mark of the beast? ... no_one@nowhere.org's utterance is an average pronouncement by a prototypical megalomaniacal, hedonistic cypherpunk who on days of lesser grandeur, humour, or importance corrects spelling and grammatical errors --unlike the standards you apparently set for yourself? I claim neither a medical degree nor the trade of a medical reporter; the information presented was solely an illustration of an unfortunate circumstance for both the AIDS victim and society as a whole. As to the current relevance of the AIDS victim (who, for that matter, may even have been an urban legend after a few historical rewrites) in today's revisionist politically correct special- interest social cauldron as promulgated by the mass hysterimedia (an environment which can, and has, rewritten the words of Thomas Jefferson to accommodate the current social agenda), the point is not only lost; it is mute, along with the truth --both your perceived truth and the historical truth. --attila == "you probably will not be last, you may not be next, but you are certainly too late to have been first. --attila -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later. iQCVAwUBMuqW2704kQrCC2kFAQE9MAQAluz6aLri1igCl8a/hE5clOQIyL3TjTG8 tzHHzEEQ4AzU4qtA2UiCSX1Y3eWAd4X/yL09C9HYrCzw9nRZHb0nBObw4+FGtU5L +vGuWOOAnhh4xJsiDOqYMNIGKftteFWpT1CG9M4C+n/DfNiHzfQV/HlX/Az8j4iP ovE04U/DpKI= =IAdt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: ichudov@algebra.com Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:55:37 -0800 (PST) To: ichudov@algebra.com Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701260655.WAA10138@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > Dale Thorn wrote: > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > > > > > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot > > > > > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough > > > > > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune > > > > > problems. > > > > > Jim and Dale, I agree. > > > Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps. > > > > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis- > > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems. It > > suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated > > or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a > > healthy person can get it from the virii alone. Dale's hypothesis seems at odds with the linkage of aids and blood transfusion and transmission through needles. Nurses who contract aids through contaminated needles do not, normally, have devastated immune systems. - Igor. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Attila T. Hun" Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:10:44 -0800 (PST) To: aga Subject: who the "fuck" am I? Message-ID: <199701260110.RAA06005@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In , on 01/25/97 at 12:32 PM, aga said: +Which Attila the Hun is this? +Is this the rec.nude guy? +-aga response -------------- I will not say "what is 'rec.nude'" but I have never been there; isn't that the one for nudists camps or some such? never been much into worrying about what I wore, or making the statement I did not! I always thought a little mystery was good for both sides: she knows not if I have a small dick, I know not if she has no tits; la, la, la.. .. as to multiple "Attila the Hun" accounts, I probably have as good as any original stake on the name as far as the net goes: --Bell Labs hung it on me in the mid 70s when I was doing some contract work on the unix kernal for Western Electric for the spook show. The name stuck, and why bother to change? Other than the fact the nudist might be a real loser, I could care less about a nym; there are multiple users on other nyms (for all we know, Tim May is a nym and the name is common); you can usually guess by context who is who. how many of us have actually seen each other face to face (who would want to )? so, in most cases, real names are no different than nyms in a make believe world. now, all that being said... it has been asked... "who the fuck are you?" to which I reply: "...good choice of expletives." "nobody, I guess; "well, let's see... "I have a Piled higher and Deeper in Information Techniques from Zuerich (undergrad at Harvard in dual honors physical chemistry); "I have been around since before the dawn of arpanet, probably even longer than TCMay; in fact, I was born before Franklin D. Roosevelt dusted off Wendell L. Willkie; "...but I've never held a 'job;' "I have personally coded more than a few 250,000+ line packages, which made me quite comfortable at one time, even if more than one did go down the black hole (along with countless other projects like the bit-slice hardware and firmware to replace B3500s in missle silos); "I have been the hatchet man in numerous high tech recoveries; "I have been detained for crypto offenses by the Feds; "I have been detained for 'treasonable' technology export; "I have been charged; "...a long time ago, in a land far, far away, there was more than one tour in the Corps' "deep-deep black" special operations; the battalion commanding officer for the 'Let's kill 'em all' vacant eyes, the misfits; "a combat chopper pilot; "an instrument rated multi-engine pilots license; "a rider of a 102 in. 115+ mph qtr. miler hawg on the street; "plus a few other reasons to guarantee an autobiography found on the fiction shelf." while playing Hotel California: So, who the 'fuck' am I? Just another aging 300 lb gorilla, long haired hippie, California freak, with yet another loud outlaw chopper. "Oh, yeah, I forgot, I hold a license to practice before the court in a couple European countries (not that I would waste my time...)." "So, who am I, really? "Nobody, I guess, just attila!" == "you probably will not be last, you may not be next, but you are certainly too late to have been first. --attila -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later. iQCVAwUBMuqidr04kQrCC2kFAQGiqgQAqu6qHbbX61IkM0YBXnFAZ2divzWvWPWB vt/+BHXq55PHmAPq1m2v5Yf0Jnam03abm4hFkvQLFtCg05i8bRaU5L8QiWyJJ3z0 wtMrDKF9VqRtSDhSwUoVwS2affnUUViE4GPBjezNCnuTtwHQ0fr7vgqq8IUr8q4I dDLp/VCMniE= =9nng -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: ichudov@algebra.com Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 22:56:16 -0800 (PST) To: dthorn@gte.net Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701260656.WAA10210@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dale Thorn wrote: > Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > > One could argue that in the cases where the cures (antibiotics) add to > > > a person's problems by further corrupting their immune system, that > > > they should simply change their habits. Since I don't see that as a > > > reasonable possibility, the only thing left is that the public should > > > be made aware of *all* of the relevant facts, even those which are > > > heavily suppressed now for PC reasons. > > > Why do they take antibiotics? Just curious. > > I'm not precisely sure, but remember, I'm not saying that your typical > suburban, well-to-do, successful gay male falls into this category. > > There are, OTOH, a lot of people in the city who have lifestyles which > are not represented accurately in the prime-time sitcoms, and the ones > who fall into the greatest health-risk category are IV drug users and > gay males (in the city, remember - i.e., Santa Monica boulevard). > > Remember too those ads for male sexual lubricants - you cannot use > a condom with those lubricants. Safe sex, I don't think so. That does not come close to a theory that would explain HIV away. > > Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system, > > has that been proven? > > You're kidding, yes? Anything besides good food, exercise, sleep etc. > is bad for the immune system. Antibiotics (usually "dead" germs of > some sort) are horrendous things to inject directly into your system. This may very well be true. I try to never use antibiotics, because I had allergy when I was a child and I also do not like taking any medications. There needs to be something more convincing than these generic statements, if you want to create some plausible theory. > In October 1959, after lapsing into a coma from a massive sinus > infection, I was given "a million units of penicillin" in the > children's hospital when first admitted. I recovered OK after > two weeks, so I'm certainly not opposed to antibiotics for those > who really need them. OTOH, our U.S. economy today is antibiotic- > and-hormone crazy, injecting cows, pigs, and chickens to name a few > animals, all in the hopes of raising production. So why is the rate > of cancer going up so high? It seems nearly everyone I know is > getting this degenerate disease when they get older. Check out the > videos by Howard Lyman, who used to be a big-time "chemical" farmer. > One quote: "My soil after a few years was like asbestos". As far as I understand, 1) no one really understands why cancer rates are up so much and 2) since people live longer, they are more likely do have cancer. What you said is one of the hypotheses. I personally feel that environment and bad greasy food are other major contributors. The way they cook all these fries, with overheated grease, is very bad. - Igor. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Greg Taylor Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 08:25:40 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Anyone have info on foreign "ITARS" Message-ID: <199701251625.IAA28444@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Bill Campbell wrote: >Does anyone have any pointers to info about the import/export >restrictions on encryption products in various countries. I know any >such summary would be very dynamic, but perhaps there's something >out there. The Australian regulations are available at: CUSTOMS (PROHIBITED EXPORTS) REGULATIONS - SCHEDULE 13 http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/cth/consol_reg/cer439/sch13.html and: AUSTRALIAN CONTROLS ON THE EXPORT OF DEFENCE AND STRATEGIC GOODS: http://www.adfa.oz.au/DOD/al/iic/excontrl/excohome.htm Crypto software comes under Part 3, Category 5/2 of these regulations. (These documents are in MS Word format) ADFA, for those who are not aware, is the Australian Defence Force Academy, the major tertiary training institute for the defence forces. I have an extract of the key clauses of these regulations if anyone is interested. Briefly, the Australian regulations ban cryptography exports, claiming responsibilities as a party to the Wassenaar Arrangement, although the actual details of the latter regarding crypto seem obscure. However, an export license can be obtained on application to the Defence Ministry. The conditions of such a license are not openly stated, and at least one Australian software company has been refused a license. It would seem that even "public domain" software such as PGP is covered here. Ironically, the international version of PGP is available from the ADFA site at: ftp://ftp.adfa.oz.au/pub/security/pgp263i/ The government attitude to crypto policy generally in Australia is much more relaxed than in the USA. There is a recognition of business and personal need for strong crypto and that a balance needs to be sought between those needs and that of the law enforcement community. Although key escrow has been raised as an issue in some circles, it has not formed part of any government policy as yet. Greg Taylor EFA Crypto Committee From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Bill Stewart Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:40:37 -0800 (PST) To: Lou Zer Subject: Re: [No Subject:] Message-ID: <199701261640.IAA18377@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 09:13 AM 1/25/97 EST, Lou Zer wrote: >You missed the hole point. You read that BECAUSE their was no header, if >it was ANARCHY you would have just deleted it. Not necessarily; I _am_ an anarchist, after all. The rest of the header is enough of a potential deterrent, anyway. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:57:23 -0800 (PST) To: Igor Chudov Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701260757.XAA11026@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > Dale Thorn wrote: > > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis- > > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems. > Why do they take antibiotics? Just curious. Both male homosexuals and IV drug-users have always suffered from an inordinate amount of infections, etc., because they are engaging in physical behavior that Mother Nature had not anticipated, since the behavior fulfills more of a psychological need than a physical one. Perhaps Mother Nature is homophobic and anti-drug, but, at any rate, she did not design the butt-hole to allow virus-free insertion of outside objects, nor blood-veins to be pierced regularly in order to insert condensed chemical combinations. As a result, those who engage in these behaviors have always had to deal with the physical effects which result from Nature's 'error'. IV drug users have always had high incidences of jaundice, etc., while male homosexuals have had to contend with various forms of venereal disease, etc. In both cases, they end up in a continuing cycle of antibiotic use. > Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system, > has that been proven? There has been great concern raised among those in the medical profession regarding the end-effects of their wholesale prescribing of anitbiotics for colds, aches and pains, etc., leading to the development of new strains of virus which are immune to the older antibiotics. This leads to development of stronger (misused) antibiotics, which then leads to stronger strains of virus. There have been a number of studies which point to the fact that the human immune system is now caught in a battle between increasingly potent virus and antibiotics and is losing its capacity to fight its 'natural' enemies. Humans tend to base their 'judgements' on psychological critera. Thus someone who puts a quart of scotch in their system every day can turn around and call someone who is putting outside objects into their butt-hole a 'pervert' who is doing 'unnatural' things to their body. Personally, I prefer to kill two birds with one stone, so I put a quart of scotch up my butt-hole every day. Toto > - Igor. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: blanc Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:55:55 -0800 (PST) To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com> Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701261655.IAA18578@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Toto and Jim Choate were having a little disagreement about the rights of nations to maintain the boundaries of ignorance around their "citizenry", and Jim said that no one outside a nation's boundaries should feel moved to interfere with the program: > 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to > stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run > our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any > particular view on them. ............................................................ Normally, I would agree that people who choose to live within a certain locale and choose the kind of government that they will live with and the kind of policies that they will accept as impositions upon their lives, should be allowed to "enjoy the fruits of their labors". But on further examination of the situation in 'foreign' countries, these things must be realized: . Individuals do not agree with each other 100% . Individuals living within the boundaries of a nation will not agree with each other 100% about the kind of government they should have . Many of the individuals living within the boundaries of *any* nation do not have 100% control over which policies, or the quality of them, they will have to live under . It is not uncommon for "leaders" of nations to take advantage of their position to benefit more from the contributions of their citizenry than vice versa (the citizenry benefitting from their leadership) . It is not uncommon for there to be proportionately more people in favor of living in a state of dependence than not; and it is not uncommon for those who favor dependence to favor proposals which seem to put them on the receiving end of "benefits" (versus being contributors); and it is not uncommon for these "benefits" to be derived at the expense of such virtues as freedom and liberty . Many individuals reside within a nation not because they favor its po litics, but because they feel more comfortable among their own kind than with strangers elsewhere - for example, Chinese who have lived in China all their lives (and whose ancestral roots are there) will wish to stay there and do what they can within the boundaries of that nation, rather than for instance moving to Canada, when the going gets rough. Given these things, nevertheless it is true that the internet , among other events in our "modern" world, is opening up avenues towards advantages and benefits hitherto difficult to comeby. As many of you are aware, many people are beginning to identify with a global network of friends and co-workers according to their particular (or peculiar) interests, rather than with the "Old Order". It is becoming moot what nationality or what government or what company one works for - the loyalties of the past are being tested and re-configured in the minds of those who now do business and communicate and share things and develop friendships, acquaintances, and empathies, on the net. So to speak of "having a say" on how Singapore or China or any other nation-state runs "our web" or vice versa "us" having a say on how they run "their web" is becoming irrelevant. Economics will be determining how the web is run, and by whom. The identity of those who use it will be not "those who are citizens of Singapore", but: "my friend who lives in Singapore and is having a hard time accessing a file that I wanted him/her to have". Affiliations will be seen differently by those who connect in cyberspace, and if certain of one's cyberspace friends are having problems - if, say, a Hitler were to suddenly rise up in their midst - then the netizens could send their emergency alert out to anyone and everyone on the net about a problem brewing which perhaps someone could help them deal with, according to their ability to do so. It is true that individuals still live within the physical boundaries of "nations" which have formed in the past, and they still hold the concepts of these boundaries in their minds and they still identify closely with these, and they still vote problems upon themselves. But it is becoming an anachronism, and it is becoming inaccurate to speak of "what Singaporians want for the internet". This phrase would describe many of those who live in Singapore, but not all of them. It is more accurate to speak of what "individuals who use the internet" want, of what "individuals who want to communicate" want, of what "individuals who want to connect with others" want. The identifications of self as a citizen who must be identified with the vote of a majority, and consequently suffer the perception of oneself as someone who "voted to accept restrictions of the net, therefore should not be helped against it", is becoming irrelevant. When a distress call goes out from someone anywhere on the planet, the assistance and relief may come from anyone anywhere who chooses to rally others and provide assistance. It is not the traditional "we" against "them", and it is not the "citizens of the US" helping those who "voted themselves a Hitler into power" or "voted themselves into restrictions against free speech". It is "those of us who appreciate the liberty in communications technology" against "those who would take it away". .. Blanc From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:10:33 -0800 (PST) To: dthorn@gte.net Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701260810.AAA11433@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dale Thorn wrote: > Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > > Dale's hypothesis seems at odds with the linkage of aids and blood > > transfusion and transmission through needles. > > Nurses who contract aids through contaminated needles do not, > > normally, have devastated immune systems. > It seems to me that "proof" of someone acquiring AIDS from one stab > with a contaminated needle is a very nebulous thing. As far as nurses > go, the contact I've had with many of them tells me they are also > (on average) drug users extraordinaire. Nurses have free access to all types of antibiotics and high-inducing drugs, and a good many of them are regular users of both. Hospitals are notoriously bad places for healthy people to go, as many go in with little diseases and come out with big diseases (for which they are often re-hospitalized). Also, outward appearances rarely have a whole lot to do with indications of a superior auto-immune system. Plants have been bred to 'look pretty' for the consumer, so we now have unblemished food stuffs which require huge applications of poisonous chemicals in order to survive, because they have lost their natural ability to defend themselves against even ordinary plant pests and diseases. Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 07:40:39 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Ultimate Flames List Message-ID: <199701261540.HAA17920@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dale Thorn wrote: > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis- > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems. It > suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated > or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a > healthy person can get it from the virii alone. It has been suggested that disease is merely an attempt by Nature to 'moderate' the species. One could make a strong case for Nature merely 'sorting' individuals into physical lists, one of which is her own 'flames' list. It remains to be seen whether Nature also plans on dropping the 'flames' list after her moderation experiment is over. Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Bill Stewart Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:55:44 -0800 (PST) To: "Mark M." Subject: Re: Cellular location... Message-ID: <199701261655.IAA18550@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 07:54 PM 1/25/97 -0500, Mark M. wrote: >> Companies working on the technology to track cellular phone calls >> [...] >I wonder how expensive it would be to put a GPS receiver in a cell phone and >have the option to transmit the coordinates on a separate channel. Pretty expensive - GPS receivers currently cost ~$200, which is more than the average cell phone, and needs a whole separate set of radio-receiver hardware, so you'd about double the size of your phone. On the other hand, the cell sites already know which you're close to, and can easily enough track when you've made transitions between cells. So they can get a good start on location by processing information that the phone companies need to have anyway. Would they save any of this for later? Of course not :-) >"location escrow" to make it easier for the feds to track drug dealers. And everybody else.... # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: bernard Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:28:01 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: DPT Win 3.xx, 95, NT ENCRYPTION program Message-ID: <199701270228.SAA03695@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > Newsgroups: comp.security.misc > > * DPT Win 3.xx, 95, NT ENCRYPTION program > > * at; http://www.xs4all.nl/~bernard > > Bernard, thanks for an interesting post. I am Cc-ing your message to > > Cypherpunks mailing list which is ostensibly dedicated to discussions > > of cryptography. > > > > As follows from info on your home page, you do use simple XOR to > > encrypt your data. It was not clear to me though, how do you generate > > the keys to encrypt the data. I am sure that many readers of cypherpunks > > mailing list will be interested, so please send a copy of your reply > > to cypherpunks@toad.com. You can enter a short key or import one with command [Get Key]. This is, you point any file, and the key will become the 30000 first characters of this file. You can get this file any where on your machine, the network, the internet, foppy,,,,, If you add (paste or type) or delete characters at the begining of the imported key, the reste will shift right, and this imported key become a new key. You can't remember a key of 30000 chr (so you have to store it) but you can remenber the the change you made (10 to 100 or more chr) and of course, don't store it. Thank you for your interest. DPT dos / DPT16 / DPT32 http://www.xs4all.nl/~bernard From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: blanc Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:55:37 -0800 (PST) To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com> Subject: RE: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701261655.IAA18541@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >Igor Chudov @ home wrote: >>>Jim Choate wrote: >>>>>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: >>>>>>>irrelevant@nowhere.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>>Dale Thorn wrote: It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same: Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the only cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings". From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: blanc Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:55:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701261655.IAA18542@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain From: Toto Obese-rvation? I hope you are not assuming that I am obese, just because I am responding to a post originating from 'fatmans.demon.co.uk.' I would hate to become relegated to the upcoming cypherpunks-fatpeople list because of assumptions of this nature. ................................................. Well, Toto, if you don't like this obeservation, you can always unsudribe from "unmoderated" and subcrive to "expurgated". There's also a rumor about a new "exfoliated" list for Snakes of Medusa starting up.... (I swear, I Toto is a tentacle of TCM) .. Blanc From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: blanc Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:55:36 -0800 (PST) To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com> Subject: RE: US Info Supremacy Message-ID: <199701261655.IAA18539@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain From: John Young Hello, Tim May and our other solons and Solomons. ........................................ He must be on vacation; he hasn't posted in quite a while. .. Blanc From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: blanc Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:57:19 -0800 (PST) To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com> Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701261657.IAA18586@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain From: Toto Obese-rvation? I hope you are not assuming that I am obese, just because I am responding to a post originating from 'fatmans.demon.co.uk.' I would hate to become relegated to the upcoming cypherpunks-fatpeople list because of assumptions of this nature. ................................................. Well, Toto, if you don't like this obeservation, you can always unsudribe from "unmoderated" and subcrive to "expurgated". (There's also a rumor about a new "exfoliated" list for Snakes of Medusa starting up....) .. Blanc From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 07:40:40 -0800 (PST) To: "Attila T. Hun" Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701261540.HAA17921@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Attila T. Hun wrote: > I question how Sandy can accept the job as moderator, passing > judgement on 100-300 messages per day. just trimming spam is > questionable: what is spam? flames: what draws the line at flames: It is whatever the moderator decides it is, depending upon h/is/er intelligence, understanding, mood, command of language, sobriety, etc., etc., etc. > and, I think cypherpunks is setting an atrocious example of our > own narrow mindedness (creditable or not) when we sanction any > filtering of what we see --is this not **exactly** what we accuse > the controlled media of determining what is "fit to print?" I am certain that there are members of the controlled media who are ROTL at the CypherPunks following in their footsteps, after having belittled the media for years for their sheep-mentality. > unfortunately, we are demonstrating to our critics that > a) net anarchy does not work > b) cyberlibertarianism breeds anarchy > c) we're loose cannons on the deck > d) we are not civilized enough to warrant respect We are also demonstrating that all of the CypherPunk rhetoric about cryptography and freedom and... was just a lot of 'smoke' being blown by a bunch of pretenders who folded like a busted flush when they were 'told' that the man who owns the Machine will now subject them to the whims of whatever moderation he sees fit to impose on the list. Cryptography is about privacy. Apparently, however, the New List Order is of the opinion the Privacy Without Freedom is an obtainable goal. > --catch22: just how do set the laws on limits, and how do you > enforce the limits if you have voted to dissolve all 'government' > and 'police?' It doesn't matter if the 'owner' of the list/Machine decides that s/he is now the government, with the power and/or right to make all decisions concerning the list. > good luck, Sandy; make sure you pull a sanity check everyday > when you start and finish the onerous task! I think that anyone who thinks that moderation is, or could ever be, anything other than a dance into the arms of the establishment, is already crazy. For the record, I don't think that either John or Sandy is crazy. I think that they have their own pre-established goals which others on the cypherpunks list are not privy to. Of course, this is my personal opinion, and I could be wrong. On the other hand, I could be 'right' like I am about everything else. Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Greg Broiles Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:55:52 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Toto's database Message-ID: <199701261655.IAA18570@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Toto writes: >My database seems to indicate a direct co-relation between the >number of postings criticizing moderation and the number of >UCE/Spam postings showing up on the list. An interesting assertion. Is your database available for others to draw their own conclusions from? I'd appreciate seeing at least a first-level abstraction of the data, e.g., the number of messages posted in opposition to moderation and the number of "spam" messages posted, listed by date. The possibility that other factors caused the correlation you mention suggests that other categorizations (e.g., total # of messages, # of messages which are not spam nor related to moderation, and # of pro-moderation messages) would also be useful, although I notice you do not mention those statistics. Of course, correlation alone doesn't tell us much. If it really exists, it suggests that the two phenomena observed are related in some way, but it doesn't tell us the nature or the cause of the relationship. (All serial killers drink water; but are all water-drinkers serial killers? Does drinking water cause a person to become a serial killer?) One explanation would be the link you suggested, that a moderation proponent is sending (or causing to be sent) the spams as a way to make moderation seem more attractive, or to detract attention from the anti-moderation arguments. (If that really worked - e.g., if spam had the effect of reducing the effectiveness of certain arguments, or of being harmfully "diversionary" - wouldn't that suggest that moderation was, in fact, necessary or at least useful? Hmm.) Another explanation would be that a moderation opponent is sending the spams as a way to punish the proponents of moderation. It's further conceivable that you don't have a big enough data set to draw meaningful conclusions from. The moderation decision, implementation, and associated arguing have taken place within three weeks (John Gilmore's original announcement was sent Sunday 1/5/97); it's hard to see how you're going to be able to distinguish signal from noise in such a small data set. I think this is especially true given the relatively inexact nature of the "spam" weapon; as far as I can tell, apart from Dmitri's ASCII art/cocksucker messages, the spams we've received have been from real live spammers (not pissed-off listmembers) who harvested the "cypherpunks@toad.com" address from messages sent to Usenet as spam bait. Inherent in the "spam bait" attack is a lack of precise control over when messages will be sent, or how many will be sent; so I'm curious about the reliability of a correlation you've found between the actions of distributed third parties (who are pursuing their own, cypherpunk-ignorant, goals) and messages sent to the list. Yet another explanation might identify external factors (like the recent storms in the American midwest) which caused people to send more messages independent of their ideology or content. My ISP, io.com, recorded much heavier mail flow recently (to the point that it created problems for delivery) during the storm; speculation is that people were stuck at home for several days and turned to the Net to amuse themselves. Such an event might cause otherwise independent-minded groups (spammers and moderation opponents) to act in similar ways, like sending more messages than usual. Of course, one would expect to see a rise in all message traffic, were this the case. Perhaps you'll be good enough to make your database available so that we may each draw our own conclusions. I'm looking forward to hearing more about how you derived this correlation. (If you have trouble finding a server from which to make the data available, just say so; if nobody else has a handy server, I'll add it to my web page.) >Has anyone actually 'seen' John Gilmore, lately? He was at C2Net's party last Friday night (1/24), being interviewed by some folks from a Japanese TV program. -- Greg Broiles | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell: gbroiles@netbox.com | http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto. | From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Bill Stewart Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:10:44 -0800 (PST) To: Jim Choate Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) Message-ID: <199701261710.JAA18743@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 12:11 AM 1/22/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >> Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think >> this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? > >'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to >stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run >our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any Nonsense - the net doesn't "belong" to "Singapore or China" - it's made up of the activies and property of many different people. If some of those people don't like what other people are saying, or reading, they've got no right to limit it, just because they've got enough guns to call themselves "the government". If they don't like something, they don't have to read it, or they can send out their own counter-propaganda. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Attila T. Hun" Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:10:37 -0800 (PST) To: Toto Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701260810.AAA11442@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- In <199701260712.XAA10405@toad.com>, on 01/25/97 at 11:03 PM, Toto said: + I fail to see how any supposedly intelligent members of the +CypherPunks list can possibly be content to fall for the line, + "Bend over, baby. I'm only going to moderate you 'a little bit'." attila sez: no matter if one perceives the "need" for a moderator or not, I find it hard to accept --even to eliminate the grossly obscene attacks by a few members against other members. I wonder if we need a 'childish' excluder? I question how Sandy can accept the job as moderator, passing judgement on 100-300 messages per day. just trimming spam is questionable: what is spam? flames: what draws the line at flames: personal attacks? profanity? politically [in]correct speach? historical revisionism? and, I think cypherpunks is setting an atrocious example of our own narrow mindedness (creditable or not) when we sanction any filtering of what we see --is this not **exactly** what we accuse the controlled media of determining what is "fit to print?" unfortunately, we are demonstrating to our critics that a) net anarchy does not work b) cyberlibertarianism breeds anarchy c) we're loose cannons on the deck d) we are not civilized enough to warrant respect and this can go on and on and on... But, the minute we, as a group, start to tell other members of the group to 'clean up your act' we are violating the principal "ethic" which we claim: freedom. sure, we can claim we are entitled to total libertarianism, or anarchy; but there is a responsibility to create a workable, cooperative social order, if for no other reason than protecting us in the wilderness, or feeding us, or clothing us. anyone here wish to return to survivalist modes of a head of household 200 years ago? we can have pure communism, the LDS Brotherhood, the Shaker house, or even true anarchy where you may do anything you wish as long as it does not infringe on the rights or property of another. --catch22: just how do set the laws on limits, and how do you enforce the limits if you have voted to dissolve all 'government' and 'police?' when basic human ambition to better oneself is literally killed... good luck, Sandy; make sure you pull a sanity check everyday when you start and finish the onerous task! == "you may not be next, you may not be last, but you are too late to have been first. --attila -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: latin1 Comment: Encrypted with 2.6.3i. Requires 2.6 or later. iQCVAwUBMusMbr04kQrCC2kFAQFXYgP/aK2vEs0skEaYNbwWiDXS+GcYKIRJ52/c y87akjVm/d1U+LDheHN0cvFxHiMCNRCIJKKa7hHNr3AYDXzJtehthP/pi+L5NPTD kYY58tUFy0p/t0hN4vze4i0wnxkymAVCnIVNkfGyAGwXytCxCmPUCHcV5ZzlYcI+ jrXv2nuBsos= =ZTbB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Sandy Sandfort Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:11:27 -0800 (PST) To: Toto Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701261711.JAA18818@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Toto wrote: > I think that anyone who thinks that moderation is, or could ever be, > anything other than a dance into the arms of the establishment, is > already crazy. Apparently, Toto does not know very much about John or me or our relationships with the "Establishment." It is who are using a intellectually dishonest smokescreen of "freedom of speech" in order to disrupt and hamper the work of Cypherpunks who are dancing into the arms of the "Establishment." > For the record, I don't think that either John or Sandy is crazy. > I think that they have their own pre-established goals which others > on the cypherpunks list are not privy to. I can't speak for John, but my goals have been stated too often and too completely for anyone not to know them. I want us all to have privacy. The Cypherpunks list was created to facilitate discussion--and ultimately action by those who were inclined and able to do something to further that goal via the use of cryptographic and other technologies. I believe that childish name-calling and personal attacks interferes with rational discourse and a spirit of common purpose and community. It is obvious to me that those who are waving the bloody flag of "censorship" are doing so for either of two reasons. The ones to whom I am the most sympathetic are those who simply do not have a clear and coherent understanding of rights in an anarchistic, volunteeristic society. The ones for whom I have no sympathy are those whose obvious goal is disruption of the Cypherpunks list and who are hiding behind a phoney interpretation of "free speech." I think both of these groups are intellectually dishonest in the extreme when it comes to telling others how this list should be run. I doubt any of them would permit the sort of disruptive behavior that goes on here to go unchallenged in salons they sponsor in their own homes or on Net lists that they themselves maintain. This is a voluntary list folks. We tried incivility and that did not work. Right now we are experimenting with reasoned discourse in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and good will. If most list members like the change, it will continue. If not, then we can go back to the swill or perhaps try something else. In the meantime, get over it. If you really like flames and spam, show John and me how it really should be done. Start another list. Of course squating and claim jumping appeal to the lazy a lot more than homesteading. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Gemini Thunder Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:40:34 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: DataETRsch Message-ID: <199701261640.IAA18369@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Apparently intimidated by the response from the Cypherpunks list, DataETRsch has begun spamming mailing lists with ads for their UDCM/IMDMP Windows DLL. It reared its ugly head in linux-c-programming@vger.rutgers.edu today. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:11:26 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701261711.JAA18817@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain blanc writes: (a bunch of sensible stuff) > . Many individuals reside within a nation not because they favor its po > litics, but because they feel more comfortable among their own kind than > with strangers elsewhere - for example, Chinese who have lived in China all > their lives (and whose ancestral roots are there) will wish to stay there > and do what they can within the boundaries of that nation, rather than for > instance moving to Canada, when the going gets rough. Also many "un-freer" societies restrict the ability to emigrate, and many "freer" society restrict the ability to immigrate. It's not so easy for someone living in Communist China to pick up his ass and go someplace else, like Taiwan. A large number of people got shot while trying to cross the Berlin Wall. Plus if they do get out, they may have difficulty going to countries like U.S. or Canada. (In case anyone missed it, the U.S. is much more selective about who it lets in as immigrants than it was earlier in the century.) > It is true that individuals still live within the physical boundaries of > "nations" which have formed in the past, and they still hold the concepts > of these boundaries in their minds and they still identify closely with > these, and they still vote problems upon themselves. But it is becoming > an anachronism, and it is becoming inaccurate to speak of "what > Singaporians want for the internet". This phrase would describe many of > those who live in Singapore, but not all of them. It is more accurate to > speak of what "individuals who use the internet" want, of what > "individuals who want to communicate" want, of what "individuals who want > to connect with others" want. > > The identifications of self as a citizen who must be identified with the > vote of a majority, and consequently suffer the perception of oneself as > someone who "voted to accept restrictions of the net, therefore should not > be helped against it", is becoming irrelevant. When a distress call goes > out from someone anywhere on the planet, the assistance and relief may come > from anyone anywhere who chooses to rally others and provide assistance. > > It is not the traditional "we" against "them", and it is not the "citizens > of the US" helping those who "voted themselves a Hitler into power" or > "voted themselves into restrictions against free speech". It is "those of > us who appreciate the liberty in communications technology" against "those > who would take it away". However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba should not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders their civilians in retaliation for something their governments supposedly did. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Igor Chudov @ home" Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:12:34 -0800 (PST) To: Crypto MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain In article <5cd7ki$52b@news.xs4all.nl> bernard@xs4all.nl Crypto wrote: Newsgroups: comp.security.misc * DPT Win 3.xx, 95, NT ENCRYPTION program * * DPT16 or DPT32 total encryption Windows program. * * Encrypt fast, Files, Dir, Floppys, e-mail, text or Messages .... * * Key up to 30 Kb, Hide your encrypted data's in a picture file. * Direct mail encryption, Visit the Data Privacy Tools home page. * * at; http://www.xs4all.nl/~bernard Bernard, thanks for an interesting post. I am Cc-ing your message to Cypherpunks mailing list which is ostensibly dedicated to discussions of cryptography. As follows from info on your home page, you do use simple XOR to encrypt your data. It was not clear to me though, how do you generate the keys to encrypt the data. I am sure that many readers of cypherpunks mailing list will be interested, so please send a copy of your reply to cypherpunks@toad.com. igor From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:40:45 -0800 (PST) To: Greg Broiles Subject: Re: Toto's database Message-ID: <199701261840.KAA21206@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Greg Broiles wrote: > Toto writes: > >Has anyone actually 'seen' John Gilmore, lately? > He was at C2Net's party last Friday night (1/24), being interviewed by some > folks from a Japanese TV program. It would be interesting if someone could show up at Gilmore's press conferences to supply an alternative view of Gilmore himself. Of course, those still clinging to the notion that Gilmore is working for us might not be comfortable with this idea - biting the hand that feeds, etc., but I think it could be a good way to keep the moderator honest. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:10:56 -0800 (PST) To: Sandy Sandfort Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701262310.PAA26784@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sandy Sandfort wrote: > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Toto wrote: > > I think that anyone who thinks that moderation is, or could ever be, > > anything other than a dance into the arms of the establishment, is > > already crazy. > Apparently, Toto does not know very much about John or me or our > relationships with the "Establishment." It is who are using a > intellectually dishonest smokescreen of "freedom of speech" in > order to disrupt and hamper the work of Cypherpunks who are > dancing into the arms of the "Establishment." [some snip] > This is a voluntary list folks. We tried incivility and that did > not work. Right now we are experimenting with reasoned discourse > in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and good will. If most > list members like the change, it will continue. If not, then we > can go back to the swill or perhaps try something else. In the > meantime, get over it. If you really like flames and spam, show > John and me how it really should be done. Start another list. > Of course squating and claim jumping appeal to the lazy a lot > more than homesteading. Actually, it is a certifiable fact that the list subscribers can jump to the unmoderated list whenever they want to. It is also a certifiable fact that they (97% or so) have *not* done so. Because of these facts, I must conclude that either: 1. The subscribers have spoken by staying put, or, 2. The subscribers are so lazy and unaware of what's going on that they've just left things as is. Now, in my opinion, we've come to this: Some people here will hold the optimistic view of the bulk of the subscribers, and others will hold the pessimistic view (the bulk will presumably be in-between). From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Alan Olsen Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:10:38 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: [noise?] Media Message-ID: <199701262310.PAA26731@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain This was forwarded to me. It was too good not to share... >"Tonight on tales from Encrypt, we have a ghastly little story involving >Congress and your Web page." --- | If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate. | |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/ |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com| From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Bill Stewart Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:12:39 -0800 (PST) To: Jim Choate Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) Message-ID: <199701262312.PAA26814@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 11:12 AM 1/26/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >stewart> Nonsense - the net doesn't "belong" to "Singapore or China" - > >The part of it that comes out of their pocketbook does. Just like the part of >'the net' that I pay for belongs to me. The net is a bunch of computers, >running software, hooked together over cables and other links. Each and >EVERY ONE of these require installation, upkeep, repair, and utility >support. This costs money. He who pays the money owns the net, everybody >else is along for the ride. For individuals, and voluntary groups of individuals, that's certainly true. But what about taxpayers involuntarily paying for a network run by bureaucrats - does each individual have an equal right to decide what he/she will say or read on the net, or are some individuals more equal than others? And if so, why is it the armed thugs who want to censor people who get to be more equal? It's the usual insoluable problem about how to decide policy for involuntarily-funded services - the government is morally obligated to follow the wishes of everybody paying for them, which are in radical conflict. It's bad enough with schools... The Arpanet had its Acceptable Use Policy, which limited speech on goverment-funded parts of the net to non-commercial use; one of main drivers behind the Commercial Internet Exchange was to allow businesses to send each other email without being limited by it. >ps I also support France's current attempt at forcing the Georgia university > web site on French soil to use French. And then there's the French Telecom Monopoly (until it falls apart) - if you don't like the rules the bureaucrats make for what you can say or read, you're not even allowed to build your own telecom network or obtain services from providers who don't censor what you can say or read. And I also don't support the French government's attempt at forcing its own subjects on French soil to use French. Asking them nicely, or running propaganda against Academically-incorrect French, is something the Academie can do itself. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:25:37 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) Message-ID: <199701261725.JAA19049@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Forwarded message: > Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 03:28:53 -0800 > From: Bill Stewart > Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) > > At 12:11 AM 1/22/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: > >> Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think > >> this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? > > > >'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to > >stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run > >our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any > > Nonsense - the net doesn't "belong" to "Singapore or China" - The part of it that comes out of their pocketbook does. Just like the part of 'the net' that I pay for belongs to me. The net is a bunch of computers, running software, hooked together over cables and other links. Each and EVERY ONE of these require installation, upkeep, repair, and utility support. This costs money. He who pays the money owns the net, everybody else is along for the ride. If we take your argument to its logical conclusion then once a box goes on the net it belongs to nobody/everybody. Clearly utter nonsense. If you really and truly believe that the net belongs to everyone and nobody has a right to limit or otherwise control the hardware and software along with the associated comm links they own and pay for then you obviously don't understand what is going on. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage@ssz.com ps I also support France's current attempt at forcing the Georgia university web site on French soil to use French. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Bill Stewart Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:10:59 -0800 (PST) To: Duncan Frissell Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5 Message-ID: <199701262310.PAA26793@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 11:45 AM 1/26/97 -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote: >Anyone running Windows 95 who hasn't grabbed the beta of PGPmail 4.5 from >http://www.pgp.com/ is crazy. It works seamlessly with Netscape 3.0 and >Eudora Pro 3.0. The 30-day demo of Eudora Pro is at: http://www.eudora.com/prodemo/. PGPmail 4.5 now has beta 10 available - the download is smaller than beta 9. Eudora Lite 3.0.1 also supports plugins, so it should work. It also supports filters, which has allowed probable flames to quietly vanish from my inbox :-) BTW, from a non-government-user perspective, the questions asked to establish export permission are nicely worded. Rather than asking "Are you a US Subject", and "Do you agree to follow every vague detail of the Export Laws", as some sites do, it asks > - Is the requesting computer located within the United States? [N/Y] > - Do you acknowledge affirmatively that you understand that PGPmail is > subject to export controls under the Export Administration Act and > that you cannot export the software without a license? [N/Y] > - Do you certify that you are not on any of the United States Government's > lists of export-precluded parties or otherwise ineligible to receive this > transfer of cryptographic software subject to export controls under the > Export Administration Act? and then has a button saying "I certify that the above answers are truthful", which is flexible enough that I don't have to feel bad about not being _absolutely_ certain that my packets aren't getting routed through Canada, or that I'm not on some list that bans telephone company employees from downloading cryptographic software on Tuesdays, or whether computers 30 feet above the US are subject to this week's export rules :-), or having to say "No" to Question 2 because I understand that you _can_ export this software without a license (just do it) even though the Feds disapprove.... # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Adam Shostack Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:10:38 -0800 (PST) To: Lucky Green Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks Message-ID: <199701261710.JAA18727@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Lucky Green wrote: | At 11:40 AM 1/25/97 -0500, Adam Shostack wrote: | > | >Paul Kocher announced that he has cracked it, and can recover data | >quickly. He is not publishing details of the break. | | Why? Probably to make money. Paul does do this for a living. Even if he hasn't cracked it, the ZIP protection mechanism is propreitary and exportable. Adam -- "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -Hume From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Duncan Frissell Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:10:53 -0800 (PST) To: Steve Schear MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 09:27 PM 1/25/97 -0800, Steve Schear wrote: >>> Presented in a "this will help 911" context. Still disconcerting. >>> >>> [...] >>> Companies working on the technology to track cellular phone calls >>> have been given additional incentive with a Federal Communications >>> Commission order that all cell phone service companies have location >>> programs in place by the year 2001. >>> [...] >> > >Looks like this might create an opportunity for 'anonymous' cellular rentals. > >--Steve Anonymous cellular accounts have been available in NYC for a year or so. See any copy of the Post or the Daily News for the ads. A similar service just started in Mexico City according to the NYT. You call the company and order the phone for circa $249.00 C.O.D. This includes one hour of calls. Subsequent hours are purchased for $36. Not cheap but anonymous. No roaming either. DCF -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQCVAgUBMuuHDIVO4r4sgSPhAQFKjwQAoYOpb6t/L3/ah6yN7bMnwlTXX34q7yLC ECW8R7QzZsvZoHd9LxwN38DrvHsCmyot+xWwF/Drixupen8ydJz9yXcmSpddeYM6 r8mmvQcA27YmNID6LF4iAh1Z7gqYu1iUyIaxEE6WhPN1cAEobJn9x3rFVV1dpouC Y88L4vFRo+I= =acJo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Duncan Frissell Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:10:59 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5 Message-ID: <199701261710.JAA18785@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Anyone running Windows 95 who hasn't grabbed the beta of PGPmail 4.5 from http://www.pgp.com/ is crazy. It works seamlessly with Netscape 3.0 and Eudora Pro 3.0. The 30-day demo of Eudora Pro is at: http://www.eudora.com/prodemo/. It is easy to use. I just installed it and pointed it at my old pubring.pgp and secring.pgp files and went to work. All my messages have been signed since then and some have been encrypted. The installation program found my existing copies of Eudora and Netscape and installed the PGP add in without any fuss. My only problem was finding the controls for the add in which (in the case of Eudora) consist of buttons to encrypt, sign, bring up the program, insert a copy of your key, and actually modify the message. The controls only appear on the message create, and message read windows. Easy to use. DCF -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQCVAgUBMuuKMYVO4r4sgSPhAQFfzAP+LkDjOecHxz0iEVVggLLABxAOE9tVyOLl AIkKlagFqK+lBboo7fETCZtSpmDHcNsJG6Et6BWO5aYf7Artw+jXj+734c+w4RWj zcj6+351LUqT60TmcukH02p2MT0sd8w1dAnhD8+o1E13G5h5N1CF/p6KQjmHOiQ6 9T1ehMax0jE= =E8Pu -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:25:49 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc. Message-ID: <199701261825.KAA20690@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hi, blanc has put forth an interesting assertion relating to nationalism and the Internet. If he is correct then we will have a one world government (ie technocracy) whether we like it or not. I agree with this assertion, which is why I hold that it is a waste of bandwidth trying to 'control' the Internet or access thereof by citizens of such countries as Singapore. Let them cut themselves off, it does us all a service, and themselves a dis-service. If the citizens have as much dissatisfaction as some members claim they will take care of it themselves. When they get hungry for ideas, materials, and food they will change. You can take a horse to water, you can't make him drink. You can drown him however. Then you are walking, not riding. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage@ssz.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Bill Stewart Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:26:29 -0800 (PST) To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" Subject: Re: microcurrency: Netscape vs. Microsoft Message-ID: <199701262326.PAA27239@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 01:05 PM 1/18/97 -0800, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: >I predict that microcurrency will not catch on in a big way >until it is integrated with browsers, and when it is, it ..... >the idea would also be to invent some new html tags that >indicate the charge on a link. the charge is incurred when ..... >of time before some enterprising programmers plug it all >together in an easy to use way. (as far as I know the >Digicash software is not easily integrated with any browser, >am I correct?) The Digicash software wasn't terribly easy to integrate with _anything_, but folks like Lucky Green have been banging on them to define and release their interface specs, and there's a library called -lucre that will do the Digicash functions. A few months ago, Ian demonstrated a Digicash-compatible plugin at one of our Bay Area cypherpunks meetings (with blinding removed for patent reasons.) I don't know about BorgBrowser, but with Netscape, you can implement non-built-in features as either a plug-in or as a helper application; no need to mess with the HTML spec in yet another browser-specific manner. You can also wedge things in using cookies (though their are non-cookie-aware browsers and people who turn their browsers off) which could work well for lower-security microcurrencies. For instance, connecting to http://newspaper.com/cookie-store.html could take your credit card with SSL and give you a cookie with 100 or 1000 credits using some S/Key-like mechanism, and each time you read a news page it would decrement by one. To avoid fraud (people resetting their cookie files) the newspaper would have to track cookie use, but they may be tracking who's reading what anyway. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Rich Burroughs Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:26:17 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5 Message-ID: <199701262326.PAA27191@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain It really does rock. I owned Eudora 3 already, but if I didn't I would purchase it for using PGPmail alone. Another great feature of PGPmail is that it adds PGP functionality to the Windows Explorer. When you right-click on a file in Windows, a PGP submenu is added to the normal right-click menu, allowing you to encrypt, decrypt, etc. This product really has the ease of use that is needed to get PGP more into the mainstream. Like Duncan, I found it very easy to incorporate my existing keyrings. I'm very impressed. I haven't tried it with NT 4.0 yet, and don't know how well it works. I run the same copy of Eudora with 95 and NT, so I'm assuming it will be fine... Rich _______________________________________________________________________ Rich Burroughs richieb@teleport.com http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/ See my Blue Ribbon Page at http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/blueribbon/ dec96 issue "cause for alarm" - http://www.teleport.com/~richieb/cause/ From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Rabid Wombat Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:12:36 -0800 (PST) To: Dale Thorn Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list Message-ID: <199701262312.PAA26813@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Regardless of which side you take on this matter, remember that the issue was forced by the actions of an extremely small segment of the list "population." The decision of that small segment to excercise its rights "in extreme" passed the tolerance thresholds of increasing numbers of list members, and the end result was a "restriction" adopted/elected/forced-on (colour it however you chose) on the entire "population." "Rights" are derived from social responsibility; its either that, or the "law of the jungle." -r.w. On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote: > Cynthia H. Brown wrote: > > Beauty, flames and censorship are all in the eyes of the beholder. > > However, by providing both "raw" and "cooked" versions of the list, Sandy > I apologize for intruding, Cynthia, but I have a question about "doing > as s/he sees fit". For example, what is the list? Is it the equipment, > is it the software that runs on the equipment, or is it the contents of > the list (my writings, your writings, etc.)? If I had to rank them, I > would rank the contents as being more important than the equipment or > the software. That said, how can those contents be considered the > property of the list owner/manager to do with as they see fit? > > I do understand that they have the right to manage the list as they see > fit, and to move the messages into whatever buckets seem appropriate, > but your phrasing suggested more to me, and I'm puzzled by it. > > > From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: blanc Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:26:32 -0800 (PST) To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com> Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701262326.PAA27241@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain From: Dr.Dimitri Vulis However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba should not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders their civilians in retaliation for something their governments supposedly did. ................................................................ The U.S.G. has many more resources than most of us to do these things, including equipment, cooperative troops, money, and recognition from other governments. If other nations disagree with the U.S.G. they have the resources to discuss, bargain, negotiate, criticize, form alliances, take their chances and retaliate, etc. These things are done on a level not accessible to the most of us. All that we individuals have are access to telephone lines, computers, and modems. Yet even as we speak the world is being "wired" with cables to further make this singular communication possible and open up avenues to non-government organized activities: international corporations are se tting up offices, services, and correspondence wherever in the world they can find markets. All this is happening even while the governments are complaining to each other about what their citizens are posting (tch, tch) and threatening to deprive each other of that privilege. While governments and their True Believer citizens are dealing with each other on one level, the rest of the world is reorganizing itself into a different order of living and doing business. They are sharing ideas and examining their concepts and beliefs, they are conducting a lot of their disagreements on the net (instead of physically against each other on the ground), opening up to a broader view of relationships between individuals, or to governments, or to religions, sexuality, etc. The situation hasn't completely changed yet, but it is in process. .. Blanc From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Casey Iverson Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:12:35 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Humor Message-ID: <199701262312.PAA26812@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Watch out for the Goodtimes Virus Goodtimes will re-write your hard drive, scramble any disks that are even close to your computer, recalibrate your refrigerator's coolness setting so all your ice cream goes melty,demagnetize the strips on all your credit cards, screw up the tracking on your television and use subspace field harmonics to scratch any CD's you try to play. It will give your ex-girlfriend your new phone number. It will mix Kool-aid into your fishtank. It will drink all your beer and leave its socks out on the coffee table when there's company coming over. It will put a dead kitten in the back pocket of your good suit pants and hide your car keys when you are late for work. Goodtimes will make you fall in love with a penguin. It will give you nightmares about circus midgets. It will pour sugar in your gas tank and shave off both your eyebrows while dating your current boyfriend behind your back and billing the dinner and hotel room to your Visa card. It will seduce your grandmother. It does not matter if she is dead, such is the power of Goodtimes, it reaches out beyond the grave to sully those things we hold most dear. It moves your car randomly around parking lots so you can't find it. It will kick your dog. It will leave libidinous messages on your boss's voice mail in your voice! It is insidious and subtle. It is dangerous and terrifying to behold. It is also a rather interesting shade of mauve. Goodtimes will give you Dutch Elm disease. It will leave the toilet seat up. It will make a batch of Methamphetamine in your bathtub and then leave bacon cooking on the stove while it goes out to chase gradeschoolers with your new snowblower. These are just a few signs... Just be very careful! CI From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:10:41 -0800 (PST) To: Cypherpunks Subject: Re: Encrypting ZIP disks Message-ID: <199701262310.PAA26737@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Proving a crack with revealing how is trivial. Someone sends Paul cyphertext; he returns clear. Proving the opposite without posting the code is a joke. -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: snow Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:25:53 -0800 (PST) To: Toto Subject: Re: Cellular phone triangulation Message-ID: <199701262325.PAA27154@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > Our prisons are overflowing with drug dealers and drug users who were > put there by quite ordinary means which didn't involve violating or > discarding the rights of the ordinary citizen. Yet we keep hearing Wanna bet? > do so. > Not to mention larger and larger amounts of money. > But, maybe if you became a 'drug dealer'... I'd rather become an "arms dealer". From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: snow Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:26:30 -0800 (PST) To: ichudov@algebra.com Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701262326.PAA27240@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > > getting this degenerate disease when they get older. Check out the > > videos by Howard Lyman, who used to be a big-time "chemical" farmer. > > One quote: "My soil after a few years was like asbestos". > As far as I understand, 1) no one really understands why cancer rates > are up so much and 2) since people live longer, they are more likely do > have cancer. While I don't claim to to be a Medical Researcher, I think that 1) should be reworded to be "No one is willing to _admit_ why cancer rates are up so much". You (generic) can look at certain population groups where there is low incidence(sp?) of cancer, and then look at our society and it becomes pretty obvious. Breast Cancer is exteremely rare in japenese women living in Japan. Thes same women move to the US, start living like American start developing breast cancer at a rate very similar to that of American born women. IMO the biggest reason that "no one really understands why cancer rates are up..." is that "they" are looking for the single bullet when reality isn't usually that simple. I would be willing to make a bet that if you could get a large population group to do the following, you would see a large statistical reduction in the incidence(sp?) of cancer. 1) Eat a lot of fruits, vegetables & breads and cerials. Stay away from large quantities of meat. Try to reduce your fat intake to under 20 grams a day (USDA recommends around 40) 2) Exercise regularly. Ride a bike or walk/run to work. 3) Avoid excess in all things. > What you said is one of the hypotheses. I personally feel that > environment and bad greasy food are other major contributors. > The way they cook all these fries, with overheated grease, is very > bad. BINGO!. Sorry, gotta go, it's dinner time and McD's is calling... From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Bill Stewart Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:29:31 -0800 (PST) To: Amanda Walker Subject: Re: Hi again, and an invitation to kibitz Message-ID: <199701262329.PAA27341@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain In addition to David Wagner's comments, I'd like to point out several more weaknesses. - Would Kerberos work just as well? No sense reinventing the 3-headed dog. - You're not authenticating the server to the client. - If the challenge is different every time, the server needs to keep the user's password in plaintext (unlike Unix encrypted passwords.) This means that attacks on the server's file system can steal it, and since the password is used for session encryption, it can be used to forge sessions as well. - Alternatively, if the challenge is always the same (per user), then even one eavesdrop kills you, as with Unix passwords. - Since you're using the same 7-byte password hash for the first third of the authentication as for the session key, the dictionary attack on E(challenge, First-seven-bytes) gives you the session key, so you can eavesdrop just fine. If the password is too short, you can then dictionary-attack MD4 to find it also. - There's a Diffie-Hellman variant that can do logins. Unfortunately, it's patented (by some guy from Siemens in Paderborn DE, who patented it in Germany about 2 years before I rediscovered it, and patented it in the US about 6 months before :-) It covers any login methods using commutative hashes H1(H2(x)) == H2(H1(x)). The Siemens version extends it to authenticate both ends to each other; I extended it to get a session key for encryption and/or authentication. This really shouldn't have been patentable - my rediscovery shows that it must be pretty obvious to anyone skilled in the trade :-), and rather than reinventing the wheel, I was reinventing the hubcap or tire swing.... > In article <199701140755.CAA04514@mail.intercon.com>, >Amanda Walker wrote: >> (a) Server sends 8-byte challenge to client >> (b) Client sends Microsoft NT authentication response to the server >> (take the password in Unicode form, do an MD4 hash, pad with 0s to 21 >> bytes, split into 3 7-byte groups, use these as DES keys to encrypt >> the challenge three times, send the 24-byte result as the response). >> (c) If authentication fails, close the connection. >> (d) If authentication succeeds, all subsequent traffic is enccrypted with >> DES in CFB mode. Until April :), the DES key used is taken from the >> first 7 bytes of the MD4 hash of the password (after April, we expect >> to switch to Diffie-Hellman key exchange first, followed by a revised >> authentication handshake). > At 11:20 AM 1/17/97 -0800, David Wagner wrote: >Some weaknesses: >- It doesn't resist dictionary attacks (no salt) when the attacker can make > one active probe (forge a fixed challenge and get the client's response). In particular, an 8 byte challenge is nowhere near enough, though the average million-dollar DES-cracker won't be as easy to adapt for 2**64 cycles of hash+DES*3 - and don't handle each third separately! At least do something like 3DES-EDE and return an 8-byte response, or hash the three output bytes together and send the hash. Using >=16 bytes of challenge would be better, or >=24 if you want printable challenges. >- It doesn't stop replay attacks (replay a fixed challenge, now the same DES > key is used, so replay DES-encrypted session data). You may not be able to replay a given challenge usefully, assuming it's different each time, but MITM attacks work ok after you've cracked the password by dictionary attack in the previous round. >- DES-encryption doesn't provide message authentication against active > attacks; use a MAC too. >- You should use independent DES keys for each direction of the connection. >- Also the DES encryption key doesn't change for each connection. It should. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:27:09 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5 Message-ID: <199701262327.PAA27285@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Bill Stewart writes: > At 11:45 AM 1/26/97 -0500, Duncan Frissell wrote: > >Anyone running Windows 95 who hasn't grabbed the beta of PGPmail 4.5 from > >http://www.pgp.com/ is crazy. It works seamlessly with Netscape 3.0 and > >Eudora Pro 3.0. The 30-day demo of Eudora Pro is at: > http://www.eudora.com/prodemo/. > > PGPmail 4.5 now has beta 10 available - the download is smaller than beta 9. > > Eudora Lite 3.0.1 also supports plugins, so it should work. > It also supports filters, which has allowed probable flames to > quietly vanish from my inbox :-) > > BTW, from a non-government-user perspective, the questions asked to establish > export permission are nicely worded. Rather than asking > "Are you a US Subject", and "Do you agree to follow every vague > detail of the Export Laws", as some sites do, it asks > > - Is the requesting computer located within the United States? [N/Y] > > - Do you acknowledge affirmatively that you understand that PGPmail is > > subject to export controls under the Export Administration Act and > > that you cannot export the software without a license? [N/Y] > > - Do you certify that you are not on any of the United States Government's > > lists of export-precluded parties or otherwise ineligible to receive this > > transfer of cryptographic software subject to export controls under the > > Export Administration Act? > and then has a button saying > "I certify that the above answers are truthful", > which is flexible enough that I don't have to feel bad about not being > _absolutely_ certain that my packets aren't getting routed through Canada, > or that I'm not on some list that bans telephone company employees from > downloading cryptographic software on Tuesdays, or whether > computers 30 feet above the US are subject to this week's export rules :-), > or having to say "No" to Question 2 because I understand that you _can_ > export this software without a license (just do it) even though the Feds > disapprove.... > > > # Thanks; Bill > # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com > # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp > # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) > It doesn't seem to work with the mail program in MS IE, or MS WordMail. I understand why some people don't like Microsoft, but excluding support for popular Microsoft programs seems contrary to their stated goal of promoting the use of crypto. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Mark M." Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:26:34 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks Subject: Re: Cellular phone triangulation Message-ID: <199701262326.PAA27242@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Toto wrote: > So far, as a result of the plethora of laws passed to enable law > enforcement agencies to 'catch drug dealers', I have seen only a > few minor criminals who are claimed to have been brought to justice > as a result of these laws, while seeing documentation of hundreds > and thousands of ordinary citizens being harassed and having their > human rights violated by these same laws. > And still, we have people like Mark, who seem relatively intelligent > and informed but who still echo the party-line of Big Brother when > He proclaims that the average citizen must be subjected to new and > better ways to monitor the movements and activities of His citizens > in order to 'protect' them from 'drug dealers'. Somehow, I thought my original post was ambiguous enough to be interpreted as support for the government's expansion of surveillance capabilities or the War on Some Drugs. Nothing could be further from the truth. I believe that the original intention of requiring cell phone providers to have the ability to triangulate all the signals they receive was so that drug dealers and other Enemies of the People could be caught easier. Since, drug dealers frequently use cell phones to avoid tracking, I thought that this was probably the primary justification. Just like the current GAK proposal, the government has found another way to justify a proposal to fool people into thinking that it's really for their own good. Many people have grown tired of hearing about the government's "compelling interest" in fighting "crime." The government claims that GAK is not only for violating people's rights by trying to get people to believe that it is a valuable service because it will allow people to recover their crypto keys if they ever lose them. In the case of the cell phone proposal, the promise of better 911 service is used to justify this latest violation of civil rights. Mark -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3 Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBMuu7UizIPc7jvyFpAQG55gf6ApVENBJJEIQ+9xKs/9ldaSRbDvemI1DY Q0MyPkuOHo4e97i3dMYFk42Jb+OA+O0Q0kdsxRV0Y2i26GxTvC362+f/xI2+dTly YvyhPwgUyztfVC+IrjQgpuvqOMWthqdBrkZR7cJAs7KQG49CiWMAVcmCmQGUWJU/ mv2TRHAw3GT0NYIqF5FhTFAEoXcPZAjuEHP1pYPOPJ1zjrUkp6adcK2khgFHKwYp L8Pc9YLTJ/VNuw1n02PcfnitzPfgQIdhQVJAxwRClCxyifBKzQW1BtcMKyPhoxHY roTqotTzpIROBJVGZStx99mEscYG3KJCymDp6zqEfC78WWcUhoMMYg== =N8mn -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: jim bell Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:10:50 -0800 (PST) To: "Mark M." MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 07:54 PM 1/25/97 -0500, Mark M. wrote: >I wonder how expensive it would be to put a GPS receiver in a cell phone and >have the option to transmit the coordinates on a separate channel. There >would be little difference between this and forcing cell phone companies to >triangulate every call. The primary motivation for this is almost certainly >"location escrow" to make it easier for the feds to track drug dealers. It would only be marginally reliable. GPS signals are so weak (coming from satellites in 11,000 mile orbits) that reception outdoors is sometimes iffy if the signals have to go through foliage. Reception indoors is probably only rarely do-able. Jim Bell jimbell@pacifier.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: blanc Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:26:05 -0800 (PST) To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com> Subject: RE: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc. Message-ID: <199701270226.SAA03548@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain From: Jim Choate blanc has put forth an interesting assertion relating to nationalism and the Internet. If he is correct then we will have a one world government (ie technocracy) whether we like it or not. ................................................................... When your little company grows up to become a big World Leader in robotics, will you then be a member of this technocracy, participating in a one-world government, whether we like it or not? Will you sit on the Board of Honchos making important decisions about net access for all, perhaps active in the Chamber of Borgs? :>) .. Blanc p.s. I be femme From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: jim bell Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:27:55 -0800 (PST) To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 09:30 AM 1/26/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: >blanc writes: >> The identifications of self as a citizen who must be identified with the >> vote of a majority, and consequently suffer the perception of oneself as >> someone who "voted to accept restrictions of the net, therefore should not >> be helped against it", is becoming irrelevant. When a distress call goes >> out from someone anywhere on the planet, the assistance and relief may come >> from anyone anywhere who chooses to rally others and provide assistance. >> >> It is not the traditional "we" against "them", and it is not the "citizens >> of the US" helping those who "voted themselves a Hitler into power" or >> "voted themselves into restrictions against free speech". It is "those of >> us who appreciate the liberty in communications technology" against "those >> who would take it away". > >However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba should >not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders their civilians >in retaliation for something their governments supposedly did. "I have a solution to that problem." Seriously! Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see any recognition of this fact. For the benefit of the masses, the AP ("Assassination Politics") solution to, for example, the Iraq problem would be to allow anyone and everyone in the world to donate money towards the death of Saddam Hussein, and any leadership which survives him, until that leadership satisfies the public that they won't be following in Hussein's footsteps. Simple. Economical. And, dare I say it, fair. I believe that the Coalition spent $60 BILLION dollars doing the Iraq war, and they didn't even get rid of Saddam. I'm sure AP would have done the task for under $100 million, and possibly far less. (and that money would have been collected by donation, not stolen in taxes. Much of that money would have come from the Iraqi people themselves, BTW.) There would be few if any civilian casualities, no hunger or poverty caused among the people. Even their soldiers would be relatively unaffected, except that their militaries (as well as ours) would be disbanded. Reminds me of the punchline to that joke. "He sent two boats and a helicopter! What more did you want?!?" Jim Bell jimbell@pacifier.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Nurdane Oksas Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:27:03 -0800 (PST) To: snow Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701262327.PAA27273@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, snow wrote: > > > getting this degenerate disease when they get older. Check out the > > > videos by Howard Lyman, who used to be a big-time "chemical" farmer. > > > One quote: "My soil after a few years was like asbestos". > > As far as I understand, 1) no one really understands why cancer rates > > are up so much and 2) since people live longer, they are more likely do > > have cancer. > > While I don't claim to to be a Medical Researcher, I think that 1) should > be reworded to be "No one is willing to _admit_ why cancer rates are up so > much". You (generic) can look at certain population groups where there is > low incidence(sp?) of cancer, and then look at our society and it becomes > pretty obvious. > > Breast Cancer is exteremely rare in japenese women living in Japan. Thes > same women move to the US, start living > like American start developing breast cancer at a rate very similar to that > of American born women. lack of olive oil intake?? i head that olive oil is esp. necessary for women, as well as milk. > > IMO the biggest reason that "no one really understands why cancer rates are > up..." is that "they" are looking for the single bullet when reality isn't > usually that simple. > > I would be willing to make a bet that if you could get a large population > group to do the following, you would see a large statistical reduction in the > incidence(sp?) of cancer. > > 1) Eat a lot of fruits, vegetables & breads and cerials. Stay away from > large quantities of meat. Try to reduce your fat intake to under 20 grams a > day (USDA recommends around 40) > > 2) Exercise regularly. Ride a bike or walk/run to work. i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary; > 3) Avoid excess in all things. even chocolate? :) > > What you said is one of the hypotheses. I personally feel that > > environment and bad greasy food are other major contributors. > > The way they cook all these fries, with overheated grease, is very > > bad. > > BINGO!. EAt well, and smile too ;) > > Sorry, gotta go, it's dinner time and McD's is calling... a good laugh goes a long way ... ;) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Ross Wright Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:29:40 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: (Fwd) Just Say No to Telcom "Reform" Message-ID: <199701270229.SAA03756@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Thought this might interest you guys. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 13:00:14 -0800 (PST) From: Audrie Krause Subject: Just Say No to Telcom "Reform" To: iaj-futuremedia@igc.apc.org * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * ACTION ALERT Please re-post where appropriate * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dear Friends, On February 8, the first anniversary of the Telecommunications Reform Act of 1996, NetAction and the Center for Educational Priorities are launching a month-long Internet demonstration to call attention to the wide gap between the rhetoric and reality of this sweeping legislation. President Clinton and Congress promised the American people that enactment of the Telecommunications Reform Act would lead to a cornucopia of technological innovations that would change the nation's cultural frontiers, expand our choices, dazzle our eyes, and inform our minds. Instead, we've been censored in cyberspace, subjected to TV ratings systems, and prevented from experiencing the benefits of a truly competitive marketplace by the emergence of "cartels" created by mega-mergers in the telecommunications and media industries. This is not reform! And it's not too late to demand that our decision makers deliver on what they promised us on February 8, 1996: MORE competition, MORE consumer choices, MORE widespread access to information technology. The Center for Educational Priorities and NetAction are spearheading this demonstration in an effort to pressure the Federal Communications Commission and other state and national regulatory agencies to ensure that the Act is implemented in a way that truly benefits the public. We invite you to join this effort by linking to the site at for one month beginning on February 8. By linking to the protest site, you will be adding your voice to a united demand for true telecommunications reform. The site is currently under development. When completed, it will feature brief summaries of the impact the Act has had in its first year on telecommunications and technology policy, media ownership and content, and censorship, along with suggested actions to help ensure that implementation of the Act truly benefits the public. We are also creating extensive links to other organizations working on these issues, as well as to other sites with current information on censorship, mega-mergers, universal service, school hook-ups, and the v-chip. We welcome suggestions for additional links to add. Please let us know if you will participate in the demonstration by contacting NetAction, by email at akrause@igc.org, or by phone at 415-775-8674. Thanks! =-=-=-=-=-=- Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906 From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:43:38 -0800 (PST) To: Sandy Sandfort Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701271643.IAA27438@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > It is obvious to me that those who are waving the bloody flag of > "censorship" are doing so for either of two reasons. The ones to > whom I am the most sympathetic are those who simply do not have > a clear and coherent understanding of rights in an anarchistic, > volunteeristic society. You need have no sympathy. Those members of this list see it as it is, a list that was supposed to be, in some small way, a "model" of an anarchistic discussion forum for the subject of cryptography, either technically (later split into coderpunks) or at a sociopolitical level. That was the intended direction of the list, it has rapidly disentigrated over recent months into a censored list where the elite post to the main list and anyone else is nearly always relegated to a seperate list for the crypto-untermenshcen. > The ones for whom I have no sympathy are those whose obvious > goal is disruption of the Cypherpunks list and who are hiding > behind a phoney interpretation of "free speech." You may make as many excuses as you like, the bottom line is you have become what you profess to hate most, a censor. If having the right to post freely on a list that was supposed to operate as a free and open anarchic forum is not a valid interpretation of free speech I cannot envisage any more elegant example. > I think both of these groups are intellectually dishonest in the > extreme when it comes to telling others how this list should be > run. I doubt any of them would permit the sort of disruptive > behavior that goes on here to go unchallenged in salons they > sponsor in their own homes or on Net lists that they themselves > maintain. If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty try the following: Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and related issues. A list which proudly proclaims in its "welcome to the list" message: We do not seek to prevent other people from speaking about their experiences or their opinions. Now imagine that list falling into a state of content based censorship and censorship based on an unspoken but ever present class structure, then ask yourself which list you know that most closely matches this description, it`s a pretty revealing exercise. > This is a voluntary list folks. We tried incivility and that did > not work. Right now we are experimenting with reasoned discourse > in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and good will. For "Reasoned discourse in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and good will" read "content based censorship". > If most list members like the change, it will continue. If not, then we > can go back to the swill or perhaps try something else. In the > meantime, get over it. If you really like flames and spam, show > John and me how it really should be done. Start another list. > Of course squating and claim jumping appeal to the lazy a lot > more than homesteading. It is a foregone conclusion that the upper class of list members will have no dispute over the censorship and therefore the change will be permenant, it is a form of online ethnic cleansing whereby the lists clique of illuminati have taken it upon themselves to remove the elements of the list they feel endanger their position of superiority and respect, the point they have missed is that they have no credibility whatsoever after this incident, as well as a number of other such occurances and therefore are only isolating themselves into their own little world. "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship" Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey" From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:31:47 -0800 (PST) To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701271731.JAA28633@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk > To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" > Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 19:12:05 +0000 > Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list > Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com > Priority: normal Can anyone tell me if my previous message with the above headers (end of message quoted in below) was sent to the censored list or to cypherpunks-flames? - I subscribe to the unmoderated version of the list so do not get to see what goes where.... > I do not have the resources to run such an unmoderated list but I > hope someone on this list does and is good enough to start such a > list, cypherpunks is a shell of what it once was. > > Also, please note this message will be junked onto cypherpunks-flames > even though it contains no flames or flame bait because it dares to > criticise the censorship of the list (once again Sandy, I give you an > opportunity to prove me wrong). Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey" From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:27:53 -0800 (PST) To: blanc Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701270227.SAA03686@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain blanc wrote: > From: Dr.Dimitri Vulis > However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba should > not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders their > civilians > in retaliation for something their governments supposedly did. > The U.S.G. has many more resources than most of us to do these things, > including equipment, cooperative troops, money, and recognition from other > governments. If other nations disagree with the U.S.G. they have the > resources to discuss, bargain, negotiate, criticize, form alliances, take > their chances and retaliate, etc. I wish this were true, at least of nations which would be friendly to someone like me (white, Western, etc.). A bully on a school playground can always be knocked down, no matter how big or how vicious he is. Sadly, the U.S. bully cannot be knocked down. Bad enough you get nuclear, chemical, and/or biological stuff waved at you - if you get into a hot war like Desert Storm, your country is carpet-bombed with fleets of B-52's until it is thoroughly debilitated. How does one country get on top and terrorize the whole world? By following Tom Wolfe's intimation concerning the pirates: "The people on the East coast were constantly victimized because they couldn't comprehend just how vicious and ruthless the pirates really were" (quote approximate). People who read this might argue that the "true power" is international now, and not confined to the USA. I say it doesn't matter which end you look at it from, the "true power" has been concentrating and centralizing itself for some years now, and you can use any nation-label you like. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: jim bell Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:28:01 -0800 (PST) To: Robert Rothenburg Walking-Owl MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 12:03 AM 1/27/97 GMT, Robert Rothenburg Walking-Owl wrote: >On Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:32:56 GMT, John Savard wrote: > >>This is surprising, given that (in Kahn on Codes) Mr. Kahn expressed >>forceful opinions > >>- against certain aspects of export controls, > >>- questioning the value of the NSA's mission, in contrast to social >>demands on government revenues. > >I didn't find his opinions forceful in Codebreakers, 2nd. ed. > >Questioning the NSA's purpose vs. advoctating GAK are not incompatible. > >>However, while I oppose making key escrow mandatory in general, and >>share the general suspicion of a voluntary Clipper, if Mr. Kahn's >>support for Clipper is limited to cellular telephones, then I have no >>quarrel with such a position. > >>Encryption is illegal, without special permission, for use over the >>airwaves, particularly where mobile radio is involved. This is a >>long-standing restriction, and not unreasonable. Private communication >>between people at home is one thing, but allowing criminals to closely >>coordinate their activities on the move is another. It's odd that I can't seem to find the original message here. Contrary to the original claim, encryption over radio is generally legal. (One noted exception to this is ham radio...) Jim Bell jimbell@pacifier.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: John Young Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:27:49 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Cellular Encryption Docs Message-ID: <199701262327.PAA27300@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Thanks to David Wagner and Steve Schear, we've learned about the latest documents on cellular encryption which supercede the 1992 CAVE document, Appendix A to IS-54, which contained the CAVE algorithm. Here are the latest, followed by ordering information. TIA/EIA/IS-136.1-A -- TDMA Cellular/PCS - Radio Interface - Mobile Station - Base Station Compatibility - Digital Control Panel, October, 1996, 372 pp. $350.00. Addendum No. 1 to IS-136.1-A, November, 1996, 40 pp. Free. TIA/EIA/IS-136.2-A -- TDMA Cellular/PCS - Radio Interface - Mobile Station - Base Station Compatibility - Traffic Channels and FSK Control Channel, October, 1996, 378 pp. $310.00. TIA/EIA-627 -- 800 MHZ Cellular System, TDMA Radio Interface, Dual-Mode Mobile Station - Base Station Compatibility Standard, June, 1996, 258 pp. $120.00. These documents can be ordered from: Global Engineering Documents 15 Inverness Way East Englewood, Colorado 80112 Telephone: 1-800-854-7179 However, each of the documents lists the following related supplements which contain "sensitive information" and may be obtained by US/CA citizens from TIA by signing a Non-Disclosure Agreement and acceptance of export restrictions: Appendix A to IS-136. Appendix A to 627. Common Cryptographic Algorithms. Interface Specification for Common Cryptographic Algorithms. These controlled documents can be requested by calling Ms. Sharon Vargish at 1-703-907-7702, who will fax an NDA, and upon receipt of the completed form, will send the controlled documents at no cost. Here's the NDA: AGREEMENT ON CONTROL AND NONDISCLOSURE OF COMMON CRYPTOGRAPHIC ALGORITHMS REVISION A TO IS-54, IS-95, AND IS-136 [Note: 627 supercedes IS-54; IS-95 is for CDMA] "I, _________________________, an employee/consultant/affiliate (typed name) of __________________________, hereafter, "the company," (Company name) _____________________________ (Company address) _____________________________ and a United States or Canadian citizen, acknowledge and understand that the subject documents, to which I will have access contain information [which] is subject to export control under the International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR) (Title 22, Code of Federal Regulations, Part 120-130). I also understand that the subject documents represent valuable, proprietary and confidential business information of TIA and its members. I hereby certify that this information will be controlled and will only be further disclosed, exported, or transferred according to the terms of the ITAR. ______________________________ _____________________________ Signature Date ______________________________ _____________________________ Printed Name Witness ______________________________ _____________________________ Title Printed Name of Witness [End NDA] From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:55:38 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: [Humor] Crypto in Traveller (a game) Message-ID: <199701262355.PAA27990@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hi, I thought I would pass this along to demonstrate that all uses of crypto are not 'real world'... Hope you enjoy. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage@ssz.com Forwarded message: > To: traveller@MPGN.COM > Subject: Re: Aperture Synthesis, Aegis > Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:40:18 +0000 > > At 08:15 AM 1/26/97 +0000, you wrote: > > >For example, at 5 ls, you have ship A sending data to ship B, which has > >to know "exactly" how long it took for the data to cross the gap, as > >that's one of the parameters in the calculations. > > > >If it's "exactly" 5 seconds, then each ship "combines" the data it > >receives directly with the data received 5 seconds later from the other > >ship. The combining involves various things like trig and other messy > >stuff. But it all boils down to "A saw X1 from direction Y1 at time Z1, B > >saw X2 from Y2 at Z2". You combine the info and triangulate. > > > >So at 5 ls, you have a "data lag" of the 5 seconds it takes the signal > >to cross the distance *plus* the processing time. > > > >And since the distance *will* vary, even if only by a little bit, that > >changes the point in the your datastream that you are comparing with > >the datastream from the other ship. > > > > Could we presume that vessels operating together would have some type of > synchronized timekeeping, such as an atomic clock, in each ship, with each > message between ships being time & velocity stamped so that each receiver > could adjust the data for integration to local data? > > We should also assume a really good (and closely gaurded) encryption on the > interchanges, or enemy intercepts would be right dangerous. > > Adventure possiblity: trying to obtain a given unit's encryption code or > seeking to recover said code. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:56:28 -0800 (PST) To: Nurdane Oksas Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701270356.TAA06710@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Nurdane Oksas wrote: > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > Nurdane Oksas wrote: > > > i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your > > > indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary; > > but remember, tanning will kill ya. > Yes it will; Not a fan of tanning myself...it also causes lots > of skin problems, have seen women age too soon tanning; > we don't go outside naked here in NorthEast...do remember; The real babes in So. Cal. go to tanning salons. That way the evenly- distributed tan looks best with, say, a pure white bikini. You can go to the beach, of course, and hang out with the hoi polloi, but it's mostly kids with pimples and stuff. BTW, if y'all can't stay away, I have a list of So. Cal. nude beaches, approx. 3 years old. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: ichudov@algebra.com Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:10:48 -0800 (PST) To: Dale Thorn Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701270110.RAA00823@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dale Thorn wrote: > 1. The subscribers have spoken by staying put, or, > 2. The subscribers are so lazy and unaware of what's going on that > they've just left things as is. > Now, in my opinion, we've come to this: Some people here will hold > the optimistic view of the bulk of the subscribers, and others will > hold the pessimistic view (the bulk will presumably be in-between). In case of 2, they are probably not worthy of your help. - Igor. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: ichudov@algebra.com Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:10:46 -0800 (PST) To: Nurdane Oksas Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701270110.RAA00819@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Nurdane Oksas wrote: > i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your > indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary; but remember, tanning will kill ya. - Igor. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Ross Wright Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:56:24 -0800 (PST) To: blanc Subject: RE: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701270356.TAA06702@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On or About 26 Jan 97 at 2:19, blanc wrote: > >Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > >>>Jim Choate wrote: > >>>>>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > >>>>>>>irrelevant@nowhere.com wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>Dale Thorn wrote: > > It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same: > Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the only > cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings". THE PRICE OF FREE SPEECH IS TOLERANCE OF IDEAS THAT WE MAY OBJECT TO. =-=-=-=-=-=- Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906 From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:58:05 -0800 (PST) To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701270358.TAA06799@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > jim bell writes: > > Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to > > prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see > > any recognition of this fact. > I said many times that I find AP a very interesting notion, worthy of study. > Given how fast online gambling is growing, how soon do we have to wait for > a web site for taking bets on deaths of politicians and other prominents? > Why not set one up, using "funny money" not convertible to anything? If AP could really work, and AP is enabled by strong p-k crypto, that fact alone would justify the Washington boys doing *everything* in their power to stop *real* crypto (i.e., no back doors). From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:25:58 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: RE: US Info Supremacy Message-ID: <199701270225.SAA03528@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain blanc writes: > From: John Young > > Hello, Tim May and our other solons and Solomons. > ........................................ > > He must be on vacation; he hasn't posted in quite a while. Other conjectures: * dead from AIDS * abducted by aliens, held captive in a flying saucer * moderated so heavily, his rants don't even make it to cypherpunks-unedited --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: ichudov@algebra.com Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:42:37 -0800 (PST) To: jim bell Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701270242.SAA04198@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain jim bell wrote: > > "I have a solution to that problem." > > Seriously! > > Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to > prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see > any recognition of this fact. > Jim, why don't you stop bullshitting and write a real assassination bot. [as a beta, it can be a mailbombing bot] This bot would: 1) Accept bets as combinations of a) Some amount of cybercash b) A string that identifies an event that should happen such as "domain X is mailbombed" c) [optional] date of that event (no date means that you always lose) d) Return address (possibly a nym address) to send all cash from UNSUCCESSSFUL bets for the event in question. e) [optional] time limit after which the cash will be refunded. Note that for simplicity, the bot should identify the event as a unique string, without any understanding of any semantics of that string. 2) Store these bets in a database. 3) Have a trusted party (someone really honest, like myself) report to the bot the signed strings that, in the opinion of the trusted party, are "true". 4) Upon receipt of such event notifications, the bot will find all bets and forward them to the better whose date prediction was the closest. If several betters predicted the same date, the money is split between them in proportion to the amount of moneys submitted. Examples of use: Suppose I do not like The Right Reverend Colin James III, cjames@cec-services.com. I have a lot of money, but do not know how to mailbomb. I set some nym address as my return address (for refunds if CJ3 is not mailbombed within half a year). I place a bet with $1000 worth of money and phrase "domain cec-services.com disabled". The date would be open which means that I will always be the loser. I also post a message (anonymously) saying that anyone who wants to mailbomb TRRCJ3 can be rewarded through your assassination bot. Someone with more knowledge of computers, a T1 link and no money will be lured, submit a bet for, say, Feb 1, and on the 1st will start fierce mailbombing of cec-services.com. The return address will, of course, be a nym. The fact of mailbombing would become apparent when CEC-SERVICES's MX DNS record is pulled off. The trusted party will send a phrase (standardized) "domain cec-services.com disabled" to the bot. The bot sends my money to the mailbomber through his nym address. I estimate that this bot would take about 2000 lines of perl. You may need to use some real database, like postgres or sybase. Use a nym for it. It will take a while for this bot to develop a reputation (remember, there is real money involved!). - Igor. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:40:43 -0800 (PST) To: Jim Choate Subject: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net Message-ID: <199701270240.SAA04129@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Jim Choate wrote: > > From: Bill Stewart > > > > Nonsense - the net doesn't "belong" to "Singapore or China" - > > The part of it that comes out of their pocketbook does. Just like the part of > 'the net' that I pay for belongs to me. > I have the right to do whatever I want to anything that comes through my part > of the net, including censoring or editing any mail that comes through it, so > that it reflects a point of view consistent with mine, since I am the one > paying for it. > The net is a bunch of computers, > running software, hooked together over cables and other links. Each and > EVERY ONE of these require installation, upkeep, repair, and utility > support. This costs money. He who pays the money owns the net, everybody > else is along for the ride. > Those who pay the money, like myself and others who have bought the right > to control the net, are justified in acting without outside interference > on anything that passes through our part of the net. > If we take your argument to its logical conclusion then once a box goes on > the net it belongs to nobody/everybody. Clearly utter nonsense. > The net belongs to those with the money to control it, and people who do > not have money have no rights on the net. > If you really and truly believe that the net belongs to everyone and nobody > has a right to limit or otherwise control the hardware and software along > with the associated comm links they own and pay for then you obviously don't > understand what is going on. > For instance, since Toto pays for the hardware and software that comprises > his part of the net, he is free to limit, control, and edit for content, > anything that passes through his part of the net. > Although I sometimes disagree with Toto because of my limited ability to > understand things on a conceptual level, his rugged good looks, charm, > and superior intelligence show that he should be allowed to control his > own privately owned part of the net and anything that passes through it. > Jim Choate > CyberTects > ravage@ssz.com Jim, Thank you for your support in my efforts to exert supreme control over the part of the net that I have paid for. I am sure that you will continue to fight for the right of myself and the government of Singapore to use that control for whatever purpose they choose. As you can see above, I have enhanced your posting so that it more closely conforms to the beliefs that my paid-for part of the net was set up to espouse. Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Howard Campbell Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:57:47 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: re: fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701270657.WAA13589@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain A recent publication "The Sovereign Individual"('97) discusses many of the issues discussed on Cypherpunks. The authors, James Dale Davidson and Lord William Rees-Mogg, sketch the likely totalitarian scenarios that will emerge in the coming years. Just as we see every day in the media, they predict that we ain't seen nothing yet when it comes to the attempts to regulate cyberspace, cryptography, and the content of online information. Portraying cellular phone triangulation as a public health concern, etc., are just the beginning. The authors also paint a bleak picture for blanc's 'True Believer' types. They will continue to be milked "as a farmer milks his cows" while those with techno-savvy and 'extranational' savoir faire will grow wings and take their wealth and marketable skills to other jurisdictions where predatory taxmen and arbitrary civil forfeiture laws don't exist. The book is sort of Toffleresque, but written better and full of historical parallels that help the reader to understand social upheavals of the past and how the demise of failing contemporary institutions are likely to affect Joe windowz95. Example: chapter 4- "The Last Days of Politics: Parallels Betwen the Senile Decline of the Holy Mother Church and the Nanny State". aloha, wc From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:29:37 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701270229.SAA03755@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain cypherpunks-errors@toad.com writes: > Dale Thorn wrote: > > 1. The subscribers have spoken by staying put, or, > > 2. The subscribers are so lazy and unaware of what's going on that > > they've just left things as is. > > > Now, in my opinion, we've come to this: Some people here will hold > > the optimistic view of the bulk of the subscribers, and others will > > hold the pessimistic view (the bulk will presumably be in-between). > > In case of 2, they are probably not worthy of your help. I wholeheartedly agree. By now everyone's painfully aware that there are 3 mailing lists. It's not my responsibily (or Dale's) to encourage cypherpunks subscribers to do what I think is best for them - resubscribe to cypherpunks-unedited. Folks who choose to let Sandy choose what they read and don't read should be free to do that. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Lou Zer Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:25:43 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Text files Message-ID: <199701270225.SAA03507@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain ho was the one who wanted a list of my texts? I deleted the message accidentally From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:28:04 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701270228.SAA03698@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain jim bell writes: > > Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to > prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see > any recognition of this fact. I said many times that I find AP a very interesting notion, worthy of study. Given how fast online gambling is growing, how soon do we have to wait for a web site for taking bets on deaths of politicians and other prominents? Why not set one up, using "funny money" not convertible to anything? > For the benefit of the masses, the AP ("Assassination Politics") solution > to, for example, the Iraq problem would be to allow anyone and everyone in > the world to donate money towards the death of Saddam Hussein, and any > leadership which survives him, until that leadership satisfies the public > that they won't be following in Hussein's footsteps. Simple. Economical. > And, dare I say it, fair. I have much respect for Saddam Hussein. I understand he's more admired by Iraqi people than, say, the kkklintons are by American people. Saddam even commands the respect of his Iranian enemies. > I believe that the Coalition spent $60 BILLION dollars doing the Iraq war, > and they didn't even get rid of Saddam. I'm sure AP would have done the > task for under $100 million, and possibly far less. (and that money would > have been collected by donation, not stolen in taxes. Much of that money > would have come from the Iraqi people themselves, BTW.) I doubt that they would collect much among the Iraqis: both because Saddam is pretty popular, and because they don't have much cash, thanks to the sanctions. I doubt they'd collect billions or even millions in the Western countries. These were involuntary taxes. Do people really hate Saddam so much as to bet that he'll live and hope to lose their bets to an assassin? I doubt it. And you can't do the standard fundraising trick of collecting some funds, then using them to run media ads soliciting more funds. I suppose Kiwaiti and Saudi sheikhs might bet a few million. (I hate these guys - I'd like to bet on the continuing existence of a basket of sheikhs :-) > There would be few if any civilian casualities, no hunger or poverty caused > among the people. Even their soldiers would be relatively unaffected, > except that their militaries (as well as ours) would be disbanded. > > Reminds me of the punchline to that joke. > > "He sent two boats and a helicopter! What more did you want?!?" Was it really Bush's goal to topple Saddam's government and bring in a U.S.-friendly one that would need billions of dollars of aid? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Nurdane Oksas Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:26:08 -0800 (PST) To: "Igor Chudov @ home" Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701270226.SAA03551@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > Nurdane Oksas wrote: > > i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your > > indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary; > > but remember, tanning will kill ya. Yes it will; Not a fan of tanning myself...it also causes lots of skin problems, have seen women age too soon tanning; we don't go outside naked here in NorthEast...do remember; love, oksas! From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Frank Willoughby Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 18:26:57 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: WinKrypt Message-ID: <199701270226.SAA03590@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Out of curiosity, is anyone familiar with WinKrypt by Syncronsys? I picked up a copy & there is no mention in the documentation which encryption algorithm it uses & what the key lengths are. FWIW, my impression is that the documentation seems to deliberately avoid mentioning the algorithm/key lengths. Hmmmm. (food for thought) I was curious how it compares to McAfee's PC Crypto which uses 40-bit DES or 160-bit Blowfish (user-chooses) & other PC/laptop encryption products. BTW, I would also appreciate your input on any crypto products which you believe to be robust, easy-to-use & secure. (I know I can only have 2 out of 3, but it's worth a try anyway). 8^) Please send marketing info to me directly at: frankw@in.net and **NOT** to the entire mailing list. (BTW, I mentioned WinKrypt & PCcrypo because they are the only two which are available at many computer stores as COTS s/w). TIA for your help. Best Regards, Frank From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Martin Minow Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:55:48 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Xerox is watching you Message-ID: <199701270555.VAA11234@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain You'll find an article worth a visit to the dentist in the January 1997 issue of Popular Science. It tells a story from the 1960's cold war era. It seems that the only American who could get into the Soviet Embassy was the Xerox repairman. So the CIA and Xerox built a camera that took a picture of every copy that could be installed inside the 914 cabinet (where it would be invisble). Once a month, the repairman came by to do the ordinary cleaning and repair (those things broke down a lot). Part of the repair process exchanged the camera for a fresh load. The CIA could then read everything that was copied. The article suggests that other Xerox models had their own cameras. My back of the envelope (literally) computation suggests that one roll of 8-millimeter film would hold about 30,000 images. Martin Minow minow@apple.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:58:10 -0800 (PST) To: Ross Wright Subject: Re: (Fwd) Just Say No to Telcom "Reform" Message-ID: <199701270358.TAA06802@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Ross Wright forwarded: > President Clinton and Congress promised the American people that > enactment of the Telecommunications Reform Act would lead to a > cornucopia of technological innovations that would change the nation's > cultural frontiers, expand our choices, dazzle our eyes, and inform > our minds. Instead, we've been censored in cyberspace, subjected to > TV ratings systems, and prevented from experiencing the benefits of a > truly competitive marketplace by the emergence of "cartels" created by > mega-mergers in the telecommunications and media industries. Surprise, surprise! > This is not reform! And it's not too late to demand that our decision > makers deliver on what they promised us on February 8, 1996: Yes it is. Nobody in politics gives up the ground they've gained. The fact that they were able to hose the citizens the first time around only reinforces their certainty that they can continue to do so. While people are still fighting the earlier, lost battles, they are preparing for the next one. I fully support anyone who wants to continue to fight past battles, present battles, and future battles, on the level of surface politics. But I think that their efforts are most effective if they add the tools and weapons developed by the underground to their battles. Let them know that if they want to censor you, they will have to censor your 'strong' crypto. Even if you choose to fight by showing up with your gun on your hip, at high-noon, it still doesn't hurt to have one tucked in your boot, as well. Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:14:09 -0800 (PST) To: dthorn@gte.net Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701270414.UAA07488@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dale Thorn wrote: > How does one country get on top and terrorize the whole world? By > following Tom Wolfe's intimation concerning the pirates: "The people > on the East coast were constantly victimized because they couldn't > comprehend just how vicious and ruthless the pirates really were" > (quote approximate). Dale, When I read posts like this, I wonder how any rationally thinking person can possibly believe that socio/politico concerns have no place in the discussion of crypto. It is my belief that many of the more atrocious acts being performed against the citizens by various governments are made possible by the fact that there are so few people who recognize a 'pirate' when they see one. While I appreciate that there are those who may be furthering the cause of crypto, privacy and freedom through official channels, the controlled media, and such, there needs to be a forum in which people are free to use what they consider to be the 'correct' terminology to refer to those who have usurped democracy in order to control the citizens for their own personal profit. i.e. 'Pirates' Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: ichudov@algebra.com Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:56:03 -0800 (PST) To: dthorn@gte.net Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701270356.TAA06648@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dale Thorn wrote: > > BTW, if y'all can't stay away, I have a list of So. Cal. nude beaches, > approx. 3 years old. > would appreciate - Igor. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: ichudov@algebra.com Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:55:50 -0800 (PST) To: Nurdane Oksas Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701270355.TAA06621@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Nurdane Oksas wrote: > California is know for very beautiful girls ... wrong. - Igor. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:57:05 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701270357.TAA06744@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes: > > Jim, why don't you stop bullshitting and write a real assassination > bot. [as a beta, it can be a mailbombing bot] This bot would: I think this would be a very good demo project, but mailbombing may not be the best choice... > 1) Accept bets as combinations of > a) Some amount of cybercash Be careful about violating Chaumian patents... How about using funny money in the prototype? Or, look at some of the micropayment schemes. > b) A string that identifies an event that should happen > such as "domain X is mailbombed" Not a good idea (see below). > c) [optional] date of that event (no date means that you always > lose) I think the date must always be specified, and the event must occur (or not occur) on or before that date. > d) Return address (possibly a nym address) to send > all cash from UNSUCCESSSFUL bets for the event in > question. > e) [optional] time limit after which the cash will be refunded. > > Note that for simplicity, the bot should identify the event as > a unique string, without any understanding of any semantics of that > string. I think we should think about the kinds of events that a 'bot can verify. > 2) Store these bets in a database. > > 3) Have a trusted party (someone really honest, like myself) report to > the bot the signed strings that, in the opinion of the trusted party, > are "true". Why not start with a less destructive event... For example, "on or before a Usenet article will appear in newsgroup X saying Y". That's something the 'bot can verify and anyone with access to dejanews and the like can confirm. Eliminating the need for a trusted human is always desirable. > 4) Upon receipt of such event notifications, the bot will find all bets > and forward them to the better whose date prediction was the closest. > If several betters predicted the same date, the money is split between > them in proportion to the amount of moneys submitted. Have you ever dealt with a bookie? I think there need to be two distinct operations: 1. A user can create a new kind of event. For a fixed fee F, one can enter a new event into the table of events that can be bet on. (In a more generalized system, the creator might also specify the third party that determines whether or not the event took place.) A human bookie decides which events can be bet on (based mostly on the tradition and supply/demand). Here we let users bet on anything they want as long as they're willing to may be bookiebot for keeping track of who bet how much $ that the event will or will not happen. In fact, when creating an event, the user must immediately bet an amount >$F and the house enters an opposing bet for $F (or slightly less). 2. A user can bet $B that an existing event will/will not happen. Bookiebot accepts the $B and promises to pay back an amount that's a function of $B and the current amounts bet so far on yes and no (or escrows the winning with a 3rd party). I'll let Jim et al figure out how to compute the odds when there are offsetting bets for the same event at two different times. E.g. E1:"Saddam Hussen will die before April 1" and E2:"ditto June 1"; if the first one occurs, then the second one occurs too. If a lot of money is bet on E1, it should somehow affect E2 odds too. Also the bookiebot should never lose money no matter what the outcome; all the winnings should come from the losers' bets. > Examples of use: Suppose I do not like The Right Reverend Colin James III, > cjames@cec-services.com. I have a lot of money, but do not know how to > mailbomb. I set some nym address as my return address (for refunds if > CJ3 is not mailbombed within half a year). > > I place a bet with $1000 worth of money and phrase "domain cec-services.com > disabled". The date would be open which means that I will always be the > loser. I also post a message (anonymously) saying that anyone who wants > to mailbomb TRRCJ3 can be rewarded through your assassination bot. Here's an improved scenario. Say I pay the bot $10 to create the event "a homophobic article will appear in soc.motss by April 1". Then I bet $1000 that the event will NOT occur to skew the odds. > Someone with more knowledge of computers, a T1 link and no money will > be lured, submit a bet for, say, Feb 1, and on the 1st will start fierce > mailbombing of cec-services.com. The return address will, of course, be > a nym. Someone looking to make a quick buck browses through the list of events and odds in the bookiebot and sees the very skewed odds for a homophobic article on soc.motss. He bets a small amount that the article will appear, so he gets really good odds. Then he posts an article that's recognized as the event, and collects a winning much larger than his bet. But if this doesn't happen, I get almost all of my $1000 investment back. In either event the bookiebot made a small profit for its owner. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Nurdane Oksas Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:56:30 -0800 (PST) To: "Igor Chudov @ home" Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701270356.TAA06711@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: [...] > Examples of use: Suppose I do not like The Right Reverend Colin James III, > cjames@cec-services.com. I have a lot of money, but do not know how to > mailbomb. I set some nym address as my return address (for refunds if > CJ3 is not mailbombed within half a year). > > I place a bet with $1000 worth of money and phrase "domain cec-services.com > disabled". The date would be open which means that I will always be the > loser. I also post a message (anonymously) saying that anyone who wants > to mailbomb TRRCJ3 can be rewarded through your assassination bot. > > Someone with more knowledge of computers, a T1 link and no money will > be lured, submit a bet for, say, Feb 1, and on the 1st will start fierce > mailbombing of cec-services.com. The return address will, of course, be > a nym. That's my birthday... have a great week ahead everyone! From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Nurdane Oksas Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:59:55 -0800 (PST) To: Dale Thorn Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701270359.TAA06867@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote: > Nurdane Oksas wrote: > > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > > Nurdane Oksas wrote: > > > > i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your > > > > indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary; > > > > but remember, tanning will kill ya. > > > Yes it will; Not a fan of tanning myself...it also causes lots > > of skin problems, have seen women age too soon tanning; > > we don't go outside naked here in NorthEast...do remember; > > The real babes in So. Cal. go to tanning salons. That way the evenly- > distributed tan looks best with, say, a pure white bikini. You can > go to the beach, of course, and hang out with the hoi polloi, but > it's mostly kids with pimples and stuff. i don't see why she would wear a bikini if she already is tan. She just goes to show off right??? California is know for very beautiful girls ... I like the pale look :) > > BTW, if y'all can't stay away, I have a list of So. Cal. nude beaches, > approx. 3 years old. only if you join us .. ;) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: ichudov@algebra.com Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:55:54 -0800 (PST) To: Cypherpunks Subject: Assination Message-ID: <199701270455.UAA08928@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > Dale Thorn writes: > > > Given how fast online gambling is growing, how soon do we have to wait for > > > a web site for taking bets on deaths of politicians and other prominents? > > > Why not set one up, using "funny money" not convertible to anything? > > > > If AP could really work, and AP is enabled by strong p-k crypto, > > that fact alone would justify the Washington boys doing *everything* > > in their power to stop *real* crypto (i.e., no back doors). > > But they can't; and their efforts (ITAR, EAR, et al) are totally irrelevant > and ineffective and not worth the time people spend fighting them. > > A prototype AP betting server, first limited to very innocent events (like > usenet postings containing certain regexps) and using "funny money" for bets, > would be a good demo. I have a feeling that you are missing the point. The point of AP is not to bet on whether a certain event will occur or not. The point is that only a person who really makes it happen (assassinates someone) will know enough to get the money. All other betters who do NOT intend to bring the event about will expect to lose money, because they will not be able to make a sufficiently good prediction. It is not a bookie system, it is a collective anonymous hire-a-hitman scheme. Yuor suggestion about trying a demo about homophobic posts is good, BUT what needs to be added to make it a good demo is a danger for the poster to lose an account. I.e., the requirement to such a homophobic post should be that 1) it should be PGP signed by a real person and 2) it should have a correct return address. Any fool can send an anonymous message, and that would have no educational value and no value for the AP demo. - Igor. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: ichudov@algebra.com Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:55:55 -0800 (PST) To: Cypherpunks Subject: Re: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net (fwd) Message-ID: <199701270455.UAA08929@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Jim Choate wrote: > > > Forwarded message: > > > Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:07:57 -0800 > > From: Toto > > Subject: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net > > > > Jim Choate wrote: > > > > If you really and truly believe that the net belongs to everyone and nobody > > > has a right to limit or otherwise control the hardware and software along > > > with the associated comm links they own and pay for then you obviously don't > > > understand what is going on. > > > > For instance, since Toto pays for the hardware and software that comprises > > > his part of the net, he is free to limit, control, and edit for content, > > > anything that passes through his part of the net. > > > Although I sometimes disagree with Toto because of my limited ability to > > > understand things on a conceptual level, his rugged good looks, charm, > > > and superior intelligence show that he should be allowed to control his > > > own privately owned part of the net and anything that passes through it. > > > > > Jim Choate > > > CyberTects > > > ravage@ssz.com > > > > Jim, > > Thank you for your support in my efforts to exert supreme control over > > the part of the net that I have paid for. > > I am sure that you will continue to fight for the right of myself and > > the government of Singapore to use that control for whatever purpose > > they choose. > > As you can see above, I have enhanced your posting so that it more > > closely conforms to the beliefs that my paid-for part of the net was > > set up to espouse. > > Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that > party did not write them is a crime? cite the statute - Igor. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:10:53 -0800 (PST) To: Jim Choate Subject: Re: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc. Message-ID: <199701270610.WAA11804@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Jim Choate wrote: > You can take a horse to water, you can't make him drink. You can drown him > however. Then you are walking, not riding. Thanks for clearing this up for us, Jim. I know that a lot of CypherPunks have been wondering about this, and many others as well. Hopefully, it will be posted on many conferences to enlighted others, as well. Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: blanc Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:26:33 -0800 (PST) To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com> Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701271426.GAA23803@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain From: jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis') Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see any recognition of this fact. ........................................................ 1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption? 2) Why do you suppose the Iraqis haven't already thought of doing this themselves? 3) The Mafia uses this method all the time - why then haven't they achieved a more rational society among themselves? 4) Weren't governments (like the U.S.) instituted to prevent this sort of thing (even if they don't work out as expected)? i.e., there were systems of courts and lawyers and such instituted to openly deal with "criminal" activity so that a) people could receive assistance against low-life degenerate killers, and b) it could be proven that the accused were indeed deserving of punishment. Humans being what they are, this hasn't worked like it's supposed to, but the point is that there is a reason why such ideas for systems of justice were introduced in the first place. That reason, as I eloquently read in a book, was "So That Reason May Live". That is, so that people who choose to live in a "society" may do so by the method of solving problems through the application of intelligence, rather than merely knocking each other off because a voting majority decides they don't like someone. Destructive people often ascend to positions of power not simply because they are ruthless, but because they have 1) many sycophantic followers and 2) many ignorant, vulnerable people unable to prevent it. You might be able to kill off one Saddam, but potentially many others would be waiting in the wings to take his place. The situation surrounding the existence of someone like Saddam is part of the contributing factors which keeps him there, not simply that one man himself. It was the same with Hitler and with so many others - they don't just have an excess of "power" concentrated within themselves which puts them in positions of control over others - there will have been many people who will have helped put them there, expecting to derive benefits from it. And what will be done about all those people who made this "power" possible? You don't just kill the one man and be done with it - you have to also "kill" the conditions which maintained him. .. Blanc From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: blanc Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:25:36 -0800 (PST) To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com> Subject: RE: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net Message-ID: <199701271425.GAA23738@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain From: Toto Jim Choate wrote: > For instance, since Toto pays for the hardware and software that comprises > his part of the net, he is free to limit, control, and edit for content, > anything that passes through his part of the net. > Although I sometimes disagree with Toto because of my limited ability to > understand things on a conceptual level, his rugged good looks, charm, > and superior intelligence show that he should be allowed to control his > own privately owned part of the net and anything that passes through it. .......................................................... I believe it, Jim. .. Blanc From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:15:50 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks maiing list Message-ID: <199701270415.UAA07559@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Rabid Wombat writes: > Regardless of which side you take on this matter, remember that the issue > was forced by the actions of an extremely small segment of the list > "population." The list "population" (readers) is a couple of thousand people, almost all of whom are lurkers. All posters are an extremely small segment of the readership. It's true on most Internet forums. > The decision of that small segment to excercise its rights "in extreme" > passed the tolerance thresholds of increasing numbers of list members, > and the end result was a "restriction" adopted/elected/forced-on (colour > it however you chose) on the entire "population." > > "Rights" are derived from social responsibility; its either that, or the > "law of the jungle." V.I.Lenin said: "liberty is a recognized necessity". (I'll let Igor correct my translation is it's wrong.) --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:10:41 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Happy birthday to Oksas Message-ID: <199701270410.UAA07321@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Nurdane Oksas writes: > That's my birthday... Happy birthday to you, Happy birthday to you, Happy birthday dear Oksas, Happy birthday to you! > have a great week ahead everyone! Have a good year. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:12:25 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Censorship Message-ID: <199701270412.UAA07406@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain "Ross Wright" writes: > On or About 26 Jan 97 at 2:19, blanc wrote: > > > >Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > >>>Jim Choate wrote: > > >>>>>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > >>>>>>>irrelevant@nowhere.com wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>Dale Thorn wrote: > > > > It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same: > > Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the only > > cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings". > > THE PRICE OF FREE SPEECH IS TOLERANCE OF IDEAS THAT WE MAY > OBJECT TO. Comversely, some people are willing to give up their own freedom of speech so as to silence others whose views they don't like. They hope that they'll be censored less than their "enemies". But a forum can't be "a little bit censored" just like a woman can't be "a little bit pregnant". --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:59:25 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net (fwd) Message-ID: <199701270459.UAA09045@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Forwarded message: > Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:07:57 -0800 > From: Toto > Subject: Jim Choate Speaks Out on My Part of the Net > > Jim Choate wrote: > > If you really and truly believe that the net belongs to everyone and nobody > > has a right to limit or otherwise control the hardware and software along > > with the associated comm links they own and pay for then you obviously don't > > understand what is going on. > > For instance, since Toto pays for the hardware and software that comprises > > his part of the net, he is free to limit, control, and edit for content, > > anything that passes through his part of the net. > > Although I sometimes disagree with Toto because of my limited ability to > > understand things on a conceptual level, his rugged good looks, charm, > > and superior intelligence show that he should be allowed to control his > > own privately owned part of the net and anything that passes through it. > > > Jim Choate > > CyberTects > > ravage@ssz.com > > Jim, > Thank you for your support in my efforts to exert supreme control over > the part of the net that I have paid for. > I am sure that you will continue to fight for the right of myself and > the government of Singapore to use that control for whatever purpose > they choose. > As you can see above, I have enhanced your posting so that it more > closely conforms to the beliefs that my paid-for part of the net was > set up to espouse. Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that party did not write them is a crime? Jim Choate CyberTects ravage@ssz.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:10:48 -0800 (PST) To: dthorn@gte.net Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701270610.WAA11802@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dale Thorn wrote: > BTW, if y'all can't stay away, I have a list of So. Cal. nude beaches, > approx. 3 years old. I don't go in for that sick, perverted stuff, myself, but I have a friend... From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:12:27 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701270412.UAA07410@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dale Thorn writes: > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > jim bell writes: > > > Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method > > > prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see > > > any recognition of this fact. > > > I said many times that I find AP a very interesting notion, worthy of study > > Given how fast online gambling is growing, how soon do we have to wait for > > a web site for taking bets on deaths of politicians and other prominents? > > Why not set one up, using "funny money" not convertible to anything? > > If AP could really work, and AP is enabled by strong p-k crypto, > that fact alone would justify the Washington boys doing *everything* > in their power to stop *real* crypto (i.e., no back doors). But they can't; and their efforts (ITAR, EAR, et al) are totally irrelevant and ineffective and not worth the time people spend fighting them. A prototype AP betting server, first limited to very innocent events (like usenet postings containing certain regexps) and using "funny money" for bets, would be a good demo. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:10:57 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: (Fwd) Just Say No to Telcom "Reform" Message-ID: <199701270410.UAA07345@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Toto writes: > Let them know that if they want to censor you, they will have to > censor your 'strong' crypto. Even if you choose to fight by showing > up with your gun on your hip, at high-noon, it still doesn't hurt to > have one tucked in your boot, as well. Certain unnamed people believe that "strong" crypto, like free speech, is only for those who use it "responsibly". Privacy is for the elite; and they wish to join the elite, rather then extend the right to privacy and/or free speech to the "unwashed masses". --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:10:46 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: (Fwd) Just Say No to Telcom "Reform" Message-ID: <199701270410.UAA07332@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Toto writes: > Let them know that if they want to censor you, they will have to > censor your 'strong' crypto. Even if you choose to fight by showing > up with your gun on your hip, at high-noon, it still doesn't hurt to > have one tucked in your boot, as well. Certain unnamed people believe that "strong" crypto, like free speech, is only for those who use it "responsibly". Privacy is for the elite; and they wish to join the elite, rather then extend the right to privacy and/or free speech to the "unwashed masses". --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 20:57:38 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701270457.UAA08979@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Toto writes: > Dale Thorn wrote: > > > How does one country get on top and terrorize the whole world? By > > following Tom Wolfe's intimation concerning the pirates: "The people > > on the East coast were constantly victimized because they couldn't > > comprehend just how vicious and ruthless the pirates really were" > > (quote approximate). > > Dale, > When I read posts like this, I wonder how any rationally thinking > person can possibly believe that socio/politico concerns have no > place in the discussion of crypto. > It is my belief that many of the more atrocious acts being performed > against the citizens by various governments are made possible by the > fact that there are so few people who recognize a 'pirate' when they > see one. > While I appreciate that there are those who may be furthering the > cause of crypto, privacy and freedom through official channels, the > controlled media, and such, there needs to be a forum in which > people are free to use what they consider to be the 'correct' > terminology to refer to those who have usurped democracy in order > to control the citizens for their own personal profit. > i.e. 'Pirates' Right now, you can still say anything you like in "cypherpunks-unedited". Anyone subscribed to the moderated cypherpunks list is free to resubscribe. If the masses of lurkers choose not to do it, it's their loss, and not your or my responsibility. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Three Blind Mice <3bmice@nym.alias.net> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:26:07 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Cellular location... Message-ID: <199701262326.PAA27174@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Mark M. wrote: > I wonder how expensive it would be to put a GPS receiver in a cell phone and > have the option to transmit the coordinates on a separate channel. There > would be little difference between this and forcing cell phone companies to > triangulate every call. The primary motivation for this is almost certainly > "location escrow" to make it easier for the feds to track drug dealers. Of course, one could always follow the ID4 example and triangulate cells from a single location, preferably using equipment that any small-time operator can find in his own car. -- 3bmice From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Nurdane Oksas Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:58:00 -0800 (PST) To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Subject: Re: Happy birthday to Oksas Message-ID: <199701270558.VAA11325@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Thank you Dr. Vulis ! :) oksas From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:13:47 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: libel.html Message-ID: <199701270613.WAA11974@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain [IMAGE] [IMAGE] Libel and Slander "Libel" involves the publishing of a falsehood that harms someone. Slander is the same doctrine applied to the spoken word. Collectively, they are referred to as "defamation". Both are a matter of state laws, which usually (not always) require that the falsehood be intentional. In New York Times v. Sullivan, the Supreme Court held that the First Amendment requires that, before a public official can recover damages for a defamatory statement, he must prove it was made with "actual malice", even if state laws otherwise allow recovery for negligent defamation. The Court has since expanded this to cover not only public officials but "public figures", including individuals who involve themselves in controversies. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:15:45 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: libelfrm.htm Message-ID: <199701270615.WAA12017@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain LIBEL CHECKLIST _________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________ Look for material that identifies a person or an entity. Keep in mind that it is possible to identify people or entities without actually using a name. If the material contains identifiable voices, likenesses, or descriptions, it could be a problem. ___ The material identifies a person or entity. STOP HERE if the material does not identify a person or entity. You can't have a libel without someone to complain about it! _________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________ Is any identified person dead? There is little reason to be concerned with statements or other material reflecting badly on dead persons because the law only protects "the memory of the dead," giving no cause of action to decedents. So long as the material concerns only the dead person, you need not answer the rest of the questions on this form. ___The person identified is dead. STOP HERE if the person identified is dead. _________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________ If material identifies a living person, is it: A private individual. ___A public person. ___A political person. _________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________ Would the material negatively influence a reasonable reader's opinion of the person or entity identified? ___a. It would reflect badly on the character of the person or entity. ___b. It could harm the reputation, diminish the esteem, respect or good will in which the person or entity's relevant community holds him, her or it. _________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________ If the material might reflect badly on character and/or harm reputation, would the harm be the result of: ___An explicit statement. ___An insinuation. ___A sarcastic statement. ___A parody or cartoon. ___An opinion that implies that there are unstated defamatory facts underlying it. ___Other. _________________________________________________________________ _________________________________________________________________ There are several possible defenses to a claim of defamation, although none may apply in a particular case. Check one of the following defenses only if you are fairly certain it would apply. ___The statement or other material is true. ___The statement or other material is purely an expression of opinion and not an assertion of fact. ___The statement or other material constitutes a fair comment on a matter of public opinion, for example, the use of public money, disbarment of attorneys, management of public institutions and charities, management of private companies whose activities widely affect the public (pollution, delivery of medical services, common carriage, employment practices, discrimination, etc.) or the review of books, public entertainment, sports events or scientific discoveries. ___No one could reasonably interpret the statement or image to be an assertion of actual fact about the person or entity. ___The statement or image can be characterized as mere words of abuse, indicating dislike for the person or entity, but does not suggest any specific charge. ___The subject of the statement or image has given consent to or approved the material. _________________ __________ _________________________________________________________________ University Liability for the Wrongful Acts of Employee Publishers | Copyright Management Center Homepage | Intellectual Property Section Homepage _________________________________________________________________ 8 August 1995 University of Texas System Office of General Counsel Comments to gharper@utsystem.edu _________________________________________________________________ From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:12:02 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: 1a_c7p4.html Message-ID: <199701270612.WAA11879@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain [IMAGE] Chapter VII: Libel Identification _________________________________________________________________ A plaintiff must prove that the alleged defamatory publication refers to him or her. Relatives cannot sue on behalf of a deceased person. Governmental entities cannot bring libel claims, nor can members of large groups (usually 25 or more). However, if the statement can be interpreted as referring to a particular person in a group, that person can sue. Also, if the offending information pertains to a majority of the members of a small group, any member of the group has standing to sue. A corporation may bring a libel claim if the alleged defamatory statement raises doubts about the honesty, credit, efficiency or prestige of that business. However, if the statements refer only to corporate officers, the corporation cannot litigate on their behalf. _________________________________________________________________ [INLINE] Back to Table of Contents [INLINE] Jump to next section in this chapter From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:11:28 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: libsln.htm Message-ID: <199701270611.WAA11844@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Landskroner, LTD. [INLINE] Libel / Slander Libel / Slander is an area that involves defamatory oral or written statements containing false and misleading material which causes damage or injury to reputation and/or monetary loss. We provide a quick review of their success stories , some media and newspaper articles about what they've been able to do for their clients, and published articles about this topic. Please e-mail us with questions about our service! Landskroner and Phillips [INLINE] Nationally Recognized Consumer Trial Advocates. Over 100 Years combined experience in both State and Federal Courts. 55 Public Square, Tenth Floor, Cleveland Ohio 44113-1904 Phone: (216) 241-7000 Fax: (216) 241-3135 Toll Free: (888) 241-7001 [INLINE] From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Nurdane Oksas Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 21:55:47 -0800 (PST) To: "Igor Chudov @ home" Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701270555.VAA11235@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > Nurdane Oksas wrote: > > California is know for very beautiful girls ... > > wrong. well, seems D. Thorn agrees with the song: 'california girls' From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:18:45 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: prof_960318.html Message-ID: <199701270618.WAA12182@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain LIBEL CONCERNS ARE A REALITY FOR SCIENTISTS WHO SPEAK OUT IN PUBLIC Author: Robert Finn (The Scientist, Vol:10, #6, p. 15, March 18, 1996) In today's increasingly litigious society, anyone can become the target of a lawsuit. A potential libel action, for example, should not only be the concern of publishers and journalists. The threat of a libel suit is now a reality for anyone, including scientists who choose to speak out publicly-or even write letters to the editor-on controversial issues. A libel suit can come without warning when an ordinary scientist is engaged in ordinary scientific activities. For example, Arnold S. Relman, editor emeritus of the New England Journal of Medicine, was quoted in a newspaper article criticizing the advertising practices of a for-profit hospital. Victor J. Stenger, a professor of physics at the University of Hawaii at Manoa, incorrectly described Israeli psychic Uri Geller's legal history in a book debunking paranormal phenomena. And Jan Moor-Jankowski, as editor of the Journal of Medical Primatology, merely printed a letter from an animal activist opposing a pharmaceutical company's experiments. Each of these scientists soon found himself faced with the dreaded prospect of defending himself in a libel suit. All three eventually prevailed in court, or the charges ended up being dropped. But defending themselves was a painful, distracting, and often expensive process. The lessons they learned are instructive to all scientists who write or make public statements. Arnol Relman CASE DISMISSED: "I think they knew they had no case," says Arnold Relman of the suit files against him by a for-profit cancer-treatment center. The First Amendment to the United States Constitution provides powerful-but not impregnable-protection to anyone who speaks on controversial topics. "Libel is a civil action, a tort action that you can bring against somebody claiming that a statement, either written or oral, is false and defamatory and caused you injury," explains Charles S. Sims, a noted libel attorney and partner at Proskauer Rose Goetz and Mendelsohn, a New York law firm. (This firm handles libel matters for The Scientist.) Sims notes that legal bills for a libel defense can quickly mount up. Even if the case is dismissed quickly, one can easily run up $20,000 to $60,000 in costs, and if a case drags on, it can go into the millions. Libel insurance can cost publishers thousands of dollars per year, and is an additional factor in today's high cost of publishing. Victor Stenger ERRATUM SHEET INSERTED: Victor Stenger took measures to correct his text but was sued nonetheless. "If you are sued, you need to check with your employer or your institution or your professional group-anybody who might consider themselves morally bound to come to your aid," advises Sims. "And you also need to look at your home insurance policy. An astonishing number of home insurance policies have clauses which turn out to be usable to force an insurance company to pay for a defense." Landmark Case The legal axiom goes, "Truth is an absolute defense against libel," and indeed no true statement of fact can ever be libelous, and neither can statements of judgment or opinion, which are neither true nor false. Both these principles were put to the test in the landmark case that Immuno AG (a pharmaceutical company based in Austria) brought against Moor-Jankowski. The former editor of the Journal of Medical Primatology was then director of New York University's Laboratory for Experimental Medicine and Surgery in Primates. He has recently founded the Center for Academic Freedom, based in New York City. As chronicled in the book The Monkey Wars by Deborah Blum (Oxford University Press, 1994) and in interviews with Moor-Jankowski and his attorney Philip Byler (now at the New York firm Layton, Brooks and Hecht), it all started in January 1983, when Shirley McGreal wrote a letter to the Journal of Medical Primatology objecting to some experiments proposed by Immuno AG. McGreal is an animal activist and founder of the Charleston, S.C.-based International Primate Protection League. She learned that Immuno planned a study of non-A/non-B hepatitis in African chimpanzees, at a research station in Sierra Leone. Based on what she learned about the experiments, and the conclusions she drew from these facts, she had several objections. Among them were that the experimenters would be using wild-caught chimpanzees, whose numbers are dwindling; that they would release them after experimentally infecting them with hepatitis; and that the released chimps might transmit the disease to other animals. With McGreal's letter to the editor in hand, Moor-Jankowski tried to elicit a rebuttal from Immuno's research director. Instead, he soon received a letter from Immuno's lawyers asserting that McGreal's statements were inaccurate and reckless. It read, in part: "We would also like to advise you that our review of Dr. McGreal's letter indicated that it is not a fair comment regarding our client's activities, and should you proceed with publication, without giving us the opportunity for a meaningful response, we shall be compelled to take whatever actions we deem necessary to redress our client's rights." But though Moor-Jankowski waited until December 1983 before publishing McGreal's letter (S. McGreal, J. Med. Primatol., 12:280, 1983), Immuno never offered a substantive response to her charges. During that time Moor-Jankowski himself came to be critical of Immuno's planned experiments, and he was quoted to that effect in New Scientist (N. Heneson, 100:165, 1983). Immuno then brought suit against a number of institutions and individuals, including McGreal, Moor-Jankowski, the Journal of Medical Primatology, New Scientist, the distributors of both publications, and NYU. Although Immuno ultimately dropped plans for the experiments, it continued pursuing its libel cases. In response, almost all the defendants or their insurance companies chose to settle rather than fight. The exception was Moor-Jankowski. Born in Poland, he explains his decision to persist by saying, "As a very young boy I fought the Germans for freedom. I didn't want to stand up for muzzling." It cost him seven years and about $2 million in legal fees ($200,000 of which Moor-Jankowski paid himself), and it generated an eight-volume legal record as the case cycled among the New York County Supreme Court, the New York State Court of Appeals, and the U.S. Supreme Court. In the end, Moor-Jankowski was vindicated. The Court of Appeals ruled that the letter was a combination of truthful factual statements and opinion, both of which are protected by the First Amendment. Jan Moor-Jankowski HE CHOSE TO FIGHT: Jan Moor-Jankowski did not settle his libel case out of court because "I didn't want to stand up for muzzling." "When you're talking about a letter to the editor, you're talking about what the Court of Appeals in New York correctly viewed as a forum to air grievances and views on the part of the public," says Philip Byler, Moor-Jankowski's attorney. "It's a precedent because it's a . . . decision which adhered to a broad constitutional protection of opinion." Byler maintains that the decision makes clear that "you do have a right to express views that are not orthodox. You do have a right to express viewpoints which over the course of time will be shown to be wrong-minded. A letter to the editor is a forum for opinion, and quite frankly people should feel the leeway to express themselves without the fear that sometime in the future, in the libel courtroom, where money damages are at stake, they will be shown to be wrong. That doesn't say that you have a right to make false, defamatory statements that are really hurtful to somebody." Byler's advice to authors of letters to the editor: Clearly separate factual statements from statements of opinion. "To the extent you are making a statement that's based on inference or speculation or conjecture, use words that indicate that." Byler believes that as editor of the journal, Moor-Jankowski more than fulfilled his obligations by deliberating a considerable time before publication, all the while soliciting a substantive response from the criticized party. Public Figures For a statement to be libelous, the offended party must suffer actual damage, notes Sims. "It's got to be really harmful, not just something that offends somebody's sensibilities, but something that harms their reputation." This principle came into play in Cornell University astronomer Carl Sagan's suit against Apple Computer Inc. of Cupertino, Calif. Apple had been using "Carl Sagan" as its internal name for a new computer. Sagan got wind of this, and his lawyers sent Apple a letter instructing the company to cease and desist. In response, a project manager changed the computer's name to BHA, an acronym for Butt-Head Astronomer. Sagan sued Apple in the Central District of California for, among other things, libel, infliction of emotional distress, and improperly using his name. Judge Lourdes G. Baird dismissed the libel portion of the suit, holding that "one does not seriously attack the expertise of a scientist using the undefined phrase 'butt-head,' and that a reader aware of the context would understand the project manager was retaliating in a humorous and satirical way." Sagan, who declined to be interviewed for this article, later reached a settlement with Apple on the other aspects of the suit. But even when a statement is both false and harmful it still may not be libel, says Sims. "If it criticizes one particular event, in many states it's immune from prosecution under the single-instance rule. If you say that a doctor screwed up an operation, that's not libelous. If you say that he's a terrible surgeon, it might be. Similarly, if you're writing a review of a scientific article and say that scientist miscalculated the numbers... that's not going to be actionable. If you said, on the other hand, that somebody's research was fraudulent, it certainly would be." For individuals judged to be public figures, a statement must not only be false but also must be made with malice or with "reckless disregard for the truth." Explains Sims: "All 'reckless disregard' means is that you actually,subjectively entertained doubts and went ahead and published anyway. If you believe what you are saying, as a matter of law you cannot-if the jury or the judge believes you-lose a libel case." This would likely have been a factor had Uri Geller's suit against Victor Stenger not been dismissed before it ever got to trial. In his book Physics and Psychics: The Search for a World Beyond the Sensesm (Buffalo, N.Y., Prometheus Books, 1990), Stenger stated of Geller that "... he was once arrested for claiming his feats were performed with psychic power." In fact, Stenger had drawn an incorrect conclusion from some of his research material. The accounts Stenger relied upon mentioned that Geller had been "brought to court," but it had been in a civil case, and he had never been arrested. Once Stenger realized his error, he and his publisher voluntarily inserted an erratum sheet and changed the wording in later printings of the book. Nevertheless, Geller sued Stenger for libel in Florida, London, and Hawaii. Stenger is convinced that despite his error he would have prevailed had the case come to trial. "You can say something that is incorrect if at the time it was to the best of your knowledge correct," he explains. "That never came up, because as often happens in legal cases, you get out on technicalities before the merits are really discussed." Geller's Florida and Hawaii cases were dismissed because he brought them after those states' statutes of limitations had expired. And his case against Stenger in London was dropped as part of a global settlement of several related cases between Geller and the Amherst, N.Y.-based Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal. New Sources Of Trouble Typically, libel law says that only a corporation or a living person can be disparaged. But in 12 states (Alabama, Arizona, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Louisiana, Mississippi, Ohio, South Carolina, South Dakota, and Texas) it has recently become possible to libel a fruit or vegetable. Farmers in those states can now sue those who make false claims about agricultural products. These "agricultural disparagement" laws were apparently inspired by a 1989 report from the New York City-based Natural Resources Defense Council (NRDC) linking the apple additive Alar to cancer. Growers turned to state legislators in an effort to fend off criticism by NRDC and other watchdog organizations. Lawrie Mott, senior scientist at NRDC's San Francisco office, calls them "veggie hate-crimes laws," and says of the states that have passed them, "They're attempting to silence those people who have raised questions about the food supply. "It's not clear that these laws are constitutional," Mott continues. "If it's based on 'reliable scientific fact,' it's not considered disparagement under the law. That's a very vague term, and one that's primed for litigation. But the ultimate advice I would have [for scientists] is: If what you say is accurate, stick to your guns. If you have scientific concerns about the safety of the food supply, don't be silenced by people with obvious interests in keeping it quiet." Lawrie Mott LETTUCE LIBELED? Lawrie Mott describes the "agricultural disparagement" laws as "veggie hate-crimes laws". Additionally, new modes of scientific communication-E-mail, Usenet newsgroups, and the World Wide Web-have become further sources of libel-related worries. As Dan L. Burk, an assistant professor at Seton Hall University's School of Law, writes: "For the first time in history, global computer networks have in essence made everyone a publisher-with a few keystrokes, ordinary citizens can make their opinions known to thousands of others... This is an exciting development for individual freedom of expression, but there is a dark side to this unprecedented opportunity: Such computer-mediated communication may also expose ordinary citizens to liability on an unprecedented scale" (D.L. Burk, The Scientist, April 3, 1995, page 12). One thing is certain: Legal liability issues in electronic communication are in a highly unsettled state. For example, there is no agreement on the critical issue of whether service providers such as CompuServe and America Online should be thought of as publishers, and hence at least partially responsible for the content of their service, or "common carriers" and thus no more responsible than is the phone company for conversations over its wires. Another recently developed legal scheme for silencing criticism of corporate practices has come to be called the "SLAPP suit." SLAPP stands for Strategic Litigation Against Public Participation. The law has long allowed just about anyone to sue anyone else for anything, and a SLAPP suit often takes the form of an unwinnable libel suit that is intended to harass and deplete the resources of critics. Arnold Relman, a longtime critic of what he calls the "medical-industrial complex," found himself the target of a what he considered a harassing libel suit after a reporter for the Dallas Morning News asked for his comment on some newspaper and radio ads placed by a for-profit cancer-treatment center, the Zion, Ill.-based Cancer Treatment Centers of America. (This is not technically a SLAPP suit because Relman's statement was quoted in a newspaper account and not made in the course of a public proceeding.) According to Relman, the ads implied that the center was able to help people with advanced cancer who had failed to respond to conventional medical treatments. "I said [to the reporter] I didn't know anything about the company, hadn't heard of it before, but on the face of what he read me those ads were misleading and they were unethical. . . . I said that . . . it was unfortunate that they would hold out this kind of hope to people with advanced metastatic cancer," recalls Relman. The center sued Relman and several other physicians quoted in the article (J. Weiss, Dallas Morning News, June 21, 1992, page 1A). A Texas court issued a subpoena to Relman requiring that he give a deposition at a lawyer's offices in Boston. But Relman's lawyers successfully argued that the Texas court had no jurisdiction in Massachusetts, and the case was ultimately dropped. "I think they knew they had no case," comments Relman. "I was expressing an opinion, and what I said as an opinion was true. I didn't say it with malicious intention. I didn't even know the company. I had nothing personal against them. I was just talking on a matter of public policy and medical ethics. "It seems to me that honest and well-intentioned scientific disputes ought to be off limits to litigation," continues Relman. "Many scientific advances are made by the resolution of disputes, the correction of well-intentioned or honest error by better data, new information... It ought to be possible for scientists to express honest disagreements, to make honest mistakes... without involving them in litigation.... I think it would be a terrible damage to the scientific process if lawyers began to get involved in scientific debates." Robert Finn, a freelance science writer based in Long Beach, Calif., is online at finn@nasw.org. [home] [top] [search] [previous] [next] _________________________________________________________________ (The Scientist, Vol:10, #6, pg.15-16 , March 18, 1996) (Copyright ) The Scientist, Inc.) WE WELCOME YOUR OPINION. IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO COMMENT ON THIS STORY, PLEASE WRITE TO US AT EITHER ONE OF THE FOLLOWING ADDRESSES: 71764.2561@compuserve.com or The Scientist, 3600 Market Street, Suite 450, Philadelphia, PA 19104, U.S.A. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:11:04 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: cc.300.html Message-ID: <199701270611.WAA11826@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain PUNISHMENT OF LIBEL KNOWN TO BE FALSE. 300. Every one who publishes a defamatory libel that he knows is false is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years. [R.S., c.C-34, s.264.] _________________________________________________________________ Next, Section 301 ... From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Robert Rothenburg Walking-Owl Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 16:40:52 -0800 (PST) To: John Savard MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:32:56 GMT, you wrote: >This is surprising, given that (in Kahn on Codes) Mr. Kahn expressed >forceful opinions >- against certain aspects of export controls, >- questioning the value of the NSA's mission, in contrast to social >demands on government revenues. I didn't find his opinions forceful in Codebreakers, 2nd. ed. Questioning the NSA's purpose vs. advoctating GAK are not incompatible. >However, while I oppose making key escrow mandatory in general, and >share the general suspicion of a voluntary Clipper, if Mr. Kahn's >support for Clipper is limited to cellular telephones, then I have no >quarrel with such a position. >Encryption is illegal, without special permission, for use over the >airwaves, particularly where mobile radio is involved. This is a >long-standing restriction, and not unreasonable. Private communication >between people at home is one thing, but allowing criminals to closely >coordinate their activities on the move is another. [..] The problem is the technology is merged. What if you're using cellular links to your ISP, and use SSL or ssh or PGP? Radio is being advocated as a possible solution to some of the net's bandwidth problems. Rob From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:11:09 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: cc.317.html Message-ID: <199701270611.WAA11828@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain VERDICTS IN CASES OF DEFAMATORY LIBEL. 317. Where, on the trial of an indictment for publishing a defamatory libel, a plea of not guilty is pleaded, the jury that is sworn to try the issue may give a general verdict of guilty or not guilty on the whole matter put in issue on the indictment, and shall not be required or directed by the judge to find the defendant guilty merely on proof of publication by the defendant of the alleged defamatory libel, and of the sense ascribed thereto in the indictment, but the judge may, in his discretion, give a direction or opinion to the jury on the matter in issue as in other criminal proceedings, and the jury may, on the issue, find a special verdict. [R.S., c.C-34, s.281.] _________________________________________________________________ Next, Section 318 ... From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:12:37 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: PublicF_j385.html Message-ID: <199701270612.WAA11921@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Libel Plaintiffs - Public or Private Person Status Recent Examples PUBLIC OFFICIALS: * High School Teacher, Elstrom v. Independent Sch. District (Minn. 1995) * Elementary School Principal, 20 MLR 1640 (VT.) * Former County Employee w/ Financial Responsiblity, 20 MLR 2159 (Tenn.) * Police Officer, 21 MLR 1588 (Az.) * Federal Strike Force Attorney, 20 MLR 1649 (Az.) * TVA Official, 20 MLR 1873 (6th) * Athletic Director/Football Coach, 21 MLR 1746 (Tx.) * Special-Agent-In-Charge of President Ford's Secret Service Detail, 21 MLR 1842 (D.D.C.) * Mississippi Public Defender, 22 MLR 1413 (DC S. Miss. 1994) * Former Deputy Sheriff, 22 MLR 2013 (Fla CirCt. 1994) * Commissioned National Guard Officers, 22 MLR 2046 (Ga. SuperCt 1994) * Police Lieutenant, 22 MLR 2129 (NJ SupCt 1994) * President of State Troopers' association, 22 MLR (NY SupCt AppDiv. 1993) NOT PUBLIC OFFICIALS: High School Principal, 20 MLR 2095 (GA.) Deputy Public Defender, 21 MLR 1624 (CA) Street & Traffic Supervisor, LeDoux v. Northstar Pub., 521 N.W. 2d (Mn. 1994) LIMITED PUBLIC FIGURES: * Charity seeking donations and organizer, 21 MLR 1449 (4th Cir.) * Attorney in private practice representing several school districts, 20 MLR 1992 (NJ) * Physician who sought media attention for practice and technique, 20 MLR 1613 (NY) * Star Witness in Jim Garrison case who "sought limelight", 20 MLR 2113 (La.) * Lawn Mower Repair Co., 22 MLR 1461 (NJ SuperCt. AppDiv. 1994)* * Police Officer/Subject of Book, 22 MLR 1385 (5th Cir. 1994)* * Paycologists/authors, 22 MLR 1852 (7th Cir. 1994) * Convicted Murderer, 22 MLR 2239 (DC Sind. 1994)* * Actress/Model, 22 MLR 2147 (DC E Wis. 1994) * * Appointed tax collector who never took office, 22 MLR 2157 (Ariz SuperCt 1994) * Brother who "voluntarily thrust himself" into controversy surrounding his brothers arrest, 22 MLR 1434 (Ca Ct App 1994) *Note: It is not clear that these individuals would be limited public figures in Oregon. NOT PUBLIC FIGURES: * Host of a loud party, 21 MLR 1378 (Pa.) * Woman at home where MLK had dinner night before shot who was alledged to have had extramarital affair with King, 21 MLR 1353 (S.D.N.Y) * Person accused of of sexual misconduct, 22 MLR 2353 (4th Cir. 1994) Return to J385 Home page From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:16:56 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: 1a_c7p6.html Message-ID: <199701270616.WAA12070@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain [IMAGE] Chapter VII: Libel Fault _________________________________________________________________ The Supreme Court has recognized different standards for different types of libel plaintiffs, with public officials and public figures required to show a high degree of fault. Celebrities and others with power in a community are usually considered public figures. Politicians and high-ranking government personnel are public officials. Courts generally consider public officials to include public employees who have substantial responsibility for or control over the conduct of governmental affairs. Some courts have found that public school teachers and police officers are public officials. But determining if other people are private or public figures is not always easy. In some instances, there may be overlapping in the private and public category. For example, a businessperson who has high visibility because of fundraising efforts in a community may or may not be a public figure for all purposes. A plaintiff who is considered a public figure or official must prove that the publisher or broadcaster acted with "actual malice" in reporting derogatory information. "Actual malice" does not mean ill will or intent to harm. Instead, the term applies to whether the defendant knew that the challenged statements were false or acted with reckless disregard of the truth. Courts may examine reporting procedures in testing for actual malice. While carelessness is not usually considered reckless disregard, ignoring obvious ways of substantiating allegations could be considered reckless. In Harte-Hanks Communications, Inc. v. Connaughton, the Supreme Court held that even an extreme deviation from professional standards, or the publication of a story to increase circulation, do not in themselves prove actual malice. The Court also said that while failure to investigate facts does not necessarily prove actual malice, a "purposeful avoidance of the truth" may. Use of quotations that are not literally accurate will not necessarily be considered proof of actual malice as long as the altered quotes do not materially change the meaning of the words the speaker used. In Masson v. The New Yorker Magazine, the Supreme Court acknowledged that some editing of quotations is often necessary, but refused to extend protection to all edits that are at least a "rational interpretation" of what the speaker said. If the plaintiff is a private litigant, he or she must at least prove that the publisher or broadcaster was negligent in failing to ascertain that the statement was false and defamatory. Some states may impose a higher burden on private-figure litigants, especially if the story in question concerns a matter of public importance. _________________________________________________________________ [INLINE] Back to Table of Contents [INLINE] Jump to next section in this chapter From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:12:27 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: 1a_c7p7.html Message-ID: <199701270612.WAA11911@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain [IMAGE] Chapter VII: Libel Defenses _________________________________________________________________ Truth is generally a complete bar to recovery by any plaintiff who sues for libel. Making sure that any potentially libelous material can be proven true can avoid needless litigation. Fair Report. Libelous statements made by others in certain settings are often conditionally privileged if the reporter, in good faith, accurately reports information of public interest. This privilege usually applies to official meetings such as judicial proceedings, legislative hearings and grand jury deliberations. Opinion is still protected speech under the First Amendment, although the Supreme Court limited the formerly broad reach of opinion protection in Milkovich v. Lorain Journal. The court ruled that there is no separate opinion privilege, but because factual truth is a defense to a libel claim an opinion with no "provably false factual connotation" is still protected. As a result of this decision, courts will examine statements of opinion to see if they are based on or presume underlying facts. If these facts are false or defamatory, the "opinion" statements will not be protected. Consent. If a person gives permission for the publication of the information, that person cannot later sue for libel. However, denial, refusal to answer or silence concerning the statement do not constitute consent. The statute of limitations for bringing libel suits varies from state to state. Generally the time limit for filing a libel lawsuit starts at the time of the first publication of the alleged defamation. If the plaintiff does not sue within the statutory time period, the litigation can be barred. Although a retraction is not usually considered a defense to a libel claim, it may reduce the damages a defendant must pay if found liable for defamation. Before agreeing to publish a retraction, consult an attorney. _________________________________________________________________ [INLINE] Back to Table of Contents [INLINE] Jump to next section in this chapter From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:56:07 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Fantasy quotes & libel Message-ID: <199701270656.WAA13546@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hi, After review of the material I forwarded by request it is clear that 'fantasy' quotes are libel provided: * the person being quoted is not a public figure. On a 'private' mailing list like the cypherpunks this is a given unless similar statements can be found in the public records. * the section added to the original quote is not clearly seperated or otherwise dilineated such that a reader will be able to tell what the original quote was and the extrapolation by the 'editor' is. * there is clear intent to effect the perception of the original authors reputation in a negative or otherwise harmful manner. * the 'fantasy' quote is not clearly marked as the opinion of the editor. While quoting persons with editing is allowed under the 1st Amendment as understood by the courts the attributation of extrapolations by a third party (meaning a party other than the original author and the reader) as 'true' quotes of the original author is not. 'Truth' is usually ascribed as protection against libel, however, opinions are not 'true', they are opinions not facts as accepted by a court. With the current 'editorial control' as provided by the cypherpunks mailing list the mailing list operator/censor may also be held in some situations accountable as well. This occurs because the relationship between list operator and the quoter is similar to that of editor and reporter in a newspaper. For the quoter to get his quote distributed the list operator must ok it. The reasoning used is that the editor 'should have known' the boundaries and applied them. Not only is ignorance not an excuse but neither is negligence. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage@ssz.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:40:52 -0800 (PST) To: Nurdane Oksas Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701271440.GAA24061@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Nurdane Oksas wrote: > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote: > > Nurdane Oksas wrote: > > > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > > > Nurdane Oksas wrote: > > > > > i think it's good also to exercise outdoors as well as your > > > > > indoor nordictrack machines..sun and air is esp. necessary; > > > > but remember, tanning will kill ya. > > > Yes it will; Not a fan of tanning myself...it also causes lots > > > of skin problems, have seen women age too soon tanning; > > > we don't go outside naked here in NorthEast...do remember; > > The real babes in So. Cal. go to tanning salons. That way the evenly- > > distributed tan looks best with, say, a pure white bikini. You can > > go to the beach, of course, and hang out with the hoi polloi, but > > it's mostly kids with pimples and stuff. > i don't see why she would wear a bikini if she already is tan. > She just goes to show off right??? California is know for > very beautiful girls ... I like the pale look :) There are two really major beaches in the L.A. area that I know of. One is Bolsa Chica, several miles long, north of Huntington Beach, which attracts most of the young'uns south of L.A., and Zuma in the northmost points of Malibu, which gets a lot of Valley people (fer sure). To quote the L.A. Weekly of a few years ago, in a "Best of L.A." review, "Why do all those hot young girls go to Zuma? Because that's where all the hot young boys are." But the real babes don't go there. They get skates and nifty little costumes and zip up and down the boardwalks in Santa Monica and Pacific Palisades mostly, in case some hot producer/director should happen along. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:40:42 -0800 (PST) To: Nurdane Oksas Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701271440.GAA24042@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Nurdane Oksas wrote: > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > Nurdane Oksas wrote: > > > California is know for very beautiful girls ... > > wrong. > well, seems D. Thorn agrees with the song: 'california girls' Depends on where you go, and what time of year. So. Cal. is no doubt a revolving door for the girl markets, especially on the beach board- walks, or on San Vicente where a lot of joggers run. Anywhere else and it's no different from Cleveland or Pittsburgh. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:40:58 -0800 (PST) To: toto@sk.sympatico.ca Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701271440.GAA24074@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Toto wrote: > Dale Thorn wrote: > > How does one country get on top and terrorize the whole world? By > > following Tom Wolfe's intimation concerning the pirates: "The people > > on the East coast were constantly victimized because they couldn't > > comprehend just how vicious and ruthless the pirates really were" > > (quote approximate). > Dale, > When I read posts like this, I wonder how any rationally thinking > person can possibly believe that socio/politico concerns have no > place in the discussion of crypto. > It is my belief that many of the more atrocious acts being performed > against the citizens by various governments are made possible by the > fact that there are so few people who recognize a 'pirate' when they > see one. > While I appreciate that there are those who may be furthering the > cause of crypto, privacy and freedom through official channels, the > controlled media, and such, there needs to be a forum in which > people are free to use what they consider to be the 'correct' > terminology to refer to those who have usurped democracy in order > to control the citizens for their own personal profit. > i.e. 'Pirates' When I recall my growing up years and the political/social arguments I participated in, I can hardly believe the things I've learned since, esp. things like government agencies sharing asset forfeitures as a means of funding further seizures (kind of snowballs, if you know what I mean). Check out H.R. 3355 of late 1993, which authorizes Janet Reno to personally treaty up with the local cops in every U.S. city of 100,000 pop. or more, i.e., most of the U.S. population, and virtually all of the "crime". There was a previous post today, perhaps yours, which made the point that while erstwhile freedom fighters are trying to put out one fire or another, the govt. boys are lighting dozens more. I guess that means we'll have to pony up a lot more tax money to pay those guys. Whoops! I forgot - they can self-fund now with the asset seizures. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: ichudov@algebra.com Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:26:27 -0800 (PST) To: Cypherpunks Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime? Message-ID: <199701271426.GAA23788@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain [Cc: to Dr. John Martin Grubor, Law Systems Institute, Medical-Cannabis Assn] Jim Choate wrote: > > > Landskroner, LTD. [INLINE] > > Libel / Slander I am not sure if you posted this information in response to my request to cite a statute that would prove that libel is a crime. Me> Jim Choate wrote: Me> > Me> > Me> > Me> > Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that Me> > party did not write them is a crime? Me> Me> cite the statute These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured (libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case. I would appreciate if someone more knowledgeable about the law could comment on this. I may be mistaken. igor > Libel / Slander is an area that involves defamatory oral or written > statements containing false and misleading material which causes > damage or injury to reputation and/or monetary loss. > > We provide a quick review of their success stories , some media and > newspaper articles about what they've been able to do for their > clients, and published articles about this topic. > > Please e-mail us with questions about our service! Landskroner and > Phillips > [INLINE] > > Nationally Recognized Consumer Trial Advocates. > Over 100 Years combined experience in both State and Federal Courts. > > 55 Public Square, Tenth Floor, Cleveland Ohio 44113-1904 > Phone: (216) 241-7000 > Fax: (216) 241-3135 > Toll Free: (888) 241-7001 > [INLINE] > - Igor. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: harka@nycmetro.com Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 22:56:07 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Passphrase Online... Message-ID: <199701270656.WAA13547@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hi there, I have a question reg. passphrases: If I am connected to the Internet via a SLIP/PPP connection and I type my passphrase while being online (for example, in Private Idaho, after getting my mail), could that passphrase be compromised? If so, how would that be done? Also, if I am online, is it possible for somebody to access my hard drive? Thanks in advance for your help... Ciao Harka /*************************************************************/ /* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE ...more info at */ /* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */ /* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */ /* PGP public key available upon request. [KeyID: 04174301] */ /* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5 28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */ /*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/ /* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve */ /* and may all living beings find the way to happiness... */ /*************************************************************/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAgUBMucA7jltEBIEF0MBAQFdewf/Q74ATvi+OZzSCdyFrIRQ5aRjychCd6hO DbfM+/NQ6EcZseKp30JyjmV2VW4Y+HrxIYPtFKii4XzOJ8YCE2Cvtvn9gP8mAntY oIgsUZG36t+L4nmANpsiEHyzEIMlhjcgW7alKTr+hFbnRjlPwX8W0gdEIXAgIl2k 4uYEB+P+cfUhy1xPQgWfAk6VFspNIHIlFJ3mUqEIJTAOguV//UfIjyNFoGrZhiG7 ocy6YaQ2LiNpoh5xHBIvMf8YSz+FJORVLTucsmA0DYSHMKatNNutXGHoEI5kW1Ww 1O5YAoIuvCLyg/4AEgPBVeU2ClJjARmKrzBcw1bMZDp3wv/DkZdoEQ== =Xtu7 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption... From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:26:07 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Austin Cypherpunks Feb. Meeting Message-ID: <199701271426.GAA23756@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain The Austin Cypherpunks (austin-cpunks@ssz.com) will be holding their next physical meeting on Saturday, February 18, 1997 at 6pm. It will be held at the Central Market HEB Restaurant, look for the red covered 'Applied Cryptography' book. In addition to the local cpunks the Experimental Science Instrumentation and Advanced Computer Experimentation groups have been invited. The meeting is open to all. If you have any questions or need further directions please send email to the Austin Cypherpunks. Hope to see you there. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Greg Broiles Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:40:47 -0800 (PST) To: Jim Choate Subject: Re: Fantasy quotes & libel Message-ID: <199701271440.GAA24050@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 12:30 AM 1/27/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >Hi, > >After review of the material I forwarded by request it is clear that >'fantasy' quotes are libel provided: [gibberish deleted] You're mixing up elements of a prima facie case for libel, defenses, and standards for liability and damages. You're missing some elements, and adding some extra (contradictory) elements. You're also ignoring at least two other potential causes of action where a quote is misattributed, as well as trying to simultaneously discuss criminal and civil actions. Your summary of defamation law is not an accurate one. Your original message suggested that misattribution could be criminal. While this may be true in some jurisdictions (modulo the First Amendment), no prosecutor is going to waste his or her time with this sort of silliness. Also, go watch _The People v. Larry Flynt_ and meditate on the reason why Jerry Falwell lost his libel claim in the trial court. -- Greg Broiles | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell: gbroiles@netbox.com | http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto. | From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "David E. Smith" Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:26:35 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Passphrase Online... Message-ID: <199701271426.GAA23804@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >If I am connected to the Internet via a SLIP/PPP connection and I >type my passphrase while being online (for example, in Private >Idaho, after getting my mail), could that passphrase be compromised? >If so, how would that be done? It certainly _could_ but hopefully isn't. Let's say that Joel McNamara hadn't released the sources to Private Idaho. It's certainly possible that he hooked into the windows created when PI shells out to DOS, and left a snippet of code that mails your keyID and passphrase to some throwaway AOL account, or a nym address that bounces through a dozen remailers, or whatever. Anything you give to a program, especially one that you know accesses the Internet, is a potential security risk. (Special note to Joel, if he's still on this list: Yes, I know better. I've read through all of your released Private Idaho sources. You just seemed like a handy example :) Paranoid yet? Good. That's a healthy state to be in. Fortunately, most developers (like Joel) don't put any such evil hooks into their software. Having access to the source, to be able to read through it yourself, is IMO one of the better ways to be sure about such things. Reading the source and recompiling it yourself is probably the best. >Also, if I am online, is it possible for somebody to access my hard >drive? Depends on what kind of computer and software you're running. I'll assume a Windows-style machine. If we assume that Microsoft didn't leave any lurking backdoors in their implementation of wsock32.dll and winsock.dll, and all you run is your usual Web browser and mail client and you trust _those_ you are probably safe. However, if you're running any server daemons on your machine, such as the MS Personal Web Server or WFTPD or whatever, the possibilities go up _a_lot. Those programs were designed to let others access your hard drive, so there's a much higher chance that they'll let someone get something they're not supposed to. Again, if you trust the people that developed your software to not stab you in the back, you should be alright. Still paranoid? Excellent. dave -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQEVAwUBMuxcVHEZTZHwCEpFAQEIKQf8CMV/7NmaJy50DUmiWV8Pg8iYPv8N3Xcl M+Fr0HRO08nxy9uRJ+C+aLhnwmXWYfiXyeSbsy9veHepZfTzsEBIYntlk4wOs7eZ Lk4mjRVI0bLNE60lxmd+8znL0E0QqzVaw5K7t3W0VEe2AMP7aN+ktZGLuIZ8epTg TSQz4u8Q908r+Od/Ojh2BkG13po63ORPu+wKOzMyLeLWgx5Nz252Xot345tHJSJF QqM9SQkDW3AZQgiz+we4qocXE8XQ1VbrMJ+qhTQ6GgsVjpfwJegvOqgIC7hgbpDd gj8lQuEKRqYIPxCqnbh3GbzIQvIwrr4PhvIOuxHX4RPaRacFjrE4iQ== =F/ib -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: snow Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:26:10 -0800 (PST) To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701271426.GAA23763@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > ichudov@algebra.com (Igor Chudov @ home) writes: > > Jim, why don't you stop bullshitting and write a real assassination > > bot. [as a beta, it can be a mailbombing bot] This bot would: > I think this would be a very good demo project, but mailbombing may not > be the best choice... > > 1) Accept bets as combinations of Well, I have made a less destructive proposal along these lines. http://www.bounty.org Version .3 should be up in a day or two. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: harka@nycmetro.com Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:26:22 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Passphrase Online... Message-ID: <199701271426.GAA23780@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >If I am connected to the Internet via a SLIP/PPP connection and I >type my passphrase while being online (for example, in Private >Idaho, after getting my mail), could that passphrase be compromised? >If so, how would that be done? :Paranoid yet? Good. That's a healthy state to be in. Fortunately, :most developers (like Joel) don't put any such evil hooks into :their software. Having access to the source, to be able to read :through it yourself, is IMO one of the better ways to be sure about :such things. Reading the source and recompiling it yourself is :probably the best. :Still paranoid? Excellent. Paranoia!! I love that word :)...What about somebody snooping on my phoneline, while I type the passphrase? :) Harka -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAwUBMucbDzltEBIEF0MBAQH/Wwf8DeH6rBzczDPjc00sEAV649EHmZu3Fm5W QCIbtRT9+NWHb4jHmbB5jBkUpkswBDwbisQoZ/XKKhCKeMHbUKWApWiq9jPuvg9w aSsal+8uqVyHLnKEiq1xqjih7rurwRC3qsWWq6Mr7XDgICzfh4XonKgp7ln6LuQj HKk+ewTNND+7WDYGQFAz6VkGzELSjKuPgNRv614IwyC0VXDHH/DJRaEOnBUYa9e2 FfcHUyZANWuHVscHwDCPKIVy+tR8UzsYhhwrIOf1e2KZhTfRMLiP/Tqaaup/C0Nr r5Bjp76e5VPtQ4GsdhrzQT9wjaV2apWq4eDRvkLMq8fVSkV/+ZaTKg== =qEst -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:42:15 -0800 (PST) To: User357419@aol.com Subject: Sharon / Re: Scott's Legal Problems Message-ID: <199701271442.GAA24133@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sharon, While I don't have a lot of details regarding Scott's personal history, as such, I have a lifetime of experience with TS, the medical system, and the legal system, as well. I spent more than a little time in court and at seminars, as a counsellor, addressing the issues of physical and mental disabilities and the resulting behavior patterns that are engendered by them. I have found that both judges and prosecutors inherently understand the issues themselves, but that defendants rarely have anyone able to effectively speak for them in regard to these issues. The fact of the matter is, the legal system is geared toward 'punishment' as a means of impressing upon people that they need to modify their behavior in order to act within the boundaries required by society. In order for people with special needs to be afforded an opportunity to meet society's requirements, there is an onus upon them to be able to show reasonable cause to the judge as to why a 'generic' solution to the problem they present to society is neither feasible, nor just. As a result of being afflicted with Tourette Syndrome, your son has problems that I am very familiar with, since I have had to deal with the results of the affliction myself for almost a half-century, without proper diagnosis. So I will endeavor to explain some of the life-experiences that I have been through, personally, as a result of this disease's influence on my life. The fact is, I was unjustly charged and convicted of a minor drug offense at the age of 19, for the simple reason that I was 'different' from the other 'suspects', and thus was more suspicious. I was fortunate enough to recognize that I was, indeed, different from others, and that this would be something that would affect my life greatly in the future. The result was that I made an effort to fully understand the intricacies of the law and to take actions to protect myself in the future, no matter whether my actions were in line with societies dictates, or beyond the acceptable boundaries of society. When you are 'different', then you are subject to a much closer scrutiny than the rest of society, and to a much harsher punishment, as a rule. I have spent hours on end at the border crossing near my hometown while customs officials called down the drug dogs from the big city, because I couldn't explain to them why I was 'twitching'. I have spent many days in jail waiting to answer to charges that would later be dismissed because there was no substance to them. I have been subjected to personal debasement and humiliating libel because of various authorities deeming that the manifestations of my disability were signs of my lack of morality, or of evil intentions on my part. You say your son has problems over possessing pills that a friend gave him to try in order to help his TS? My father and mother have given me, over the years, various of their medications to try in order to see if it would help me. They did so because, for all of their care and concern, helping me as much as possible within the 'proper boundaries' of medical science, I was not getting what I needed in order to become a functional human being. My father and mother are respected business people and leading members of the community. They never had to fear getting 'busted' for stepping outside the bounds of society--but I did. I found a drug, amphetamine, that helped me to become a functional member of society, but I was subject to arrest and imprisonment if I got caught possessing it. After over three decades of occasional 'illegal' use of the drug, it is now prescribed for my by a doctor who is allowed to do so because it is now a 'recognized' treatment for TS. But, from a legal standpoint, I was supposed to forego use of the drug and lead a more dysfunctional life. DWI's? The most functional period of my life was spent self-medicating with alcohol and nicotine. I acted as president of a small computer company while smoking a carton of cigarettes a day and drinking a case (24) of beer a day. It made me functional. I put on 30-50,000 miles a year, accident free, and there were times that I would not drive if I didn't have my 'medicine/beer' because I didn't feel it was safe to do so. I had the foresight to buy my own breathalyzer so that I could guage my drinking according to the legal standard, but I did so only for legal reasons, not for reasons of safety. Public intoxication? I was recently 'forced' to show up in court in a state of legally defined 'public intoxication' in order not to be locked in a cage like an animal as a result of my disabilities. I missed a court appearance because the prescribed medications I was taking could not get me onto the 'day schedule' required by the legal system. Under threat of imprisonment for failing to show up at the next court date, I spent the previous night imbibing my 'old faithful' medication, Scotch. I had a friend drive me to court, and I drank Scotch and Coke while pleading my case (which I won). I had no desire to 'break the law'. I did not have an 'attitude problem'. I was not trying to 'flaunt the rules of society'. I was trying to survive. I was trying to keep from being locked in a cage for not being able to function according to society's wishes without performing actions which also went against society's wishes, but which would enable me to avoid 'punishment', nonetheless. I take it that Scott is 'hiding out' to avoid being locked in a cage for violating the rules of society. I have spent a great deal of my life 'hiding out' so that I would not have to come into contact with society and be punished for trying to survive while not fitting into the common mold. There have been times when I was forced to 'hide out' from showing up in court to answer this-or-that charge which I knew would be dismissed if I could hold out until I was functional enough to deal with the situation. I had the foresight and the knowledge to do so using the same 'techniques' as a lawyer who isn't ready to plead a case because he stayed up too late drinking the night before. I 'fudged' the truth, as lawyers do every day, but I did so in order to compensate for a dysfunctionality which was very real, but undiagnosed and therefore unrecognized by the legal system. I have been blessed enough in life to have 'escaped' many situations which could have turned out badly for me, by virtue of learning at a young age that I needed to institute my own methods of dealing with a dysfunctionality which I recognized, but which, in many ways, remained a mystery to me. I have also been blessed by having the extreme good fortune to have encountered a number of judges and prosecutors who were truly concerned about justice, and who had the ability to judge me as a human being, and take into account the fact that I was being honest with them about my attitude, intentions and circumstances, even when my outward actions or appearance did not correspond to what they were used to seeing in 'normal' people. And I have been blessed to be able to make a difference in the lives of others by pleading their case to those in authority over them, when they were unable to effectively do so themselves. During my years as a consellor and court-appointed advisor, I was only vaguely aware that I understood the circumstances of the people I was helping to defend because I shared their disabilities and their dysfunctionality. In regard to Scott, I don't know him personally, but the trials and tribulations that you have shared on the pov-twitch forum are not foreign to me, as they mirror my own life in many ways. What I would say to a judge and a prosecutor who are charged with the duty of protecting both society and the individual, is this: 1. Please have the compassion and the wisdom to take a close look at Scott as a human being, and seriously consider what special circumstances may be raised by the fact that he is afflicted with a medical condition that affects his life in ways that he has little control over. 2. Try to make a distinction between actions, behaviors and attitudes that are a result of a 'bad attitude' or a 'criminal intent', and the actions, behaviors and attitudes of an individual who is trying desperately to survive in a world in which he is ill-equipped to function as a result of his disabilities. 3. Please make an attempt to review his past history of involvement with the legal system with an eye toward recognizing that perhaps the judgements made about him, and the resulting legal decisions regarding the disposition of his cases, did not fully take into account his physical and mental disabilities and thus did not reflect the best course of resolution of his case for the greatest benefit of both society and the individual himself. (The Tourette-support forums regularly contain postings by loving and concerned parents who are horrified by the mistaken judgements--and resulting punishments-they made concerning their children before they came to realize that their child had physical and mental disabilities which required them to view his or her actions in a new light, and find unique solutions for the problems that these disabilities presented.) 4. Keep in mind the fact that resistance to authority and the tendency to 'flee' from the face of society are common traits among many who suffer from Tourette Syndrome and its accompanying afflictions. (I posted a message to pov-twitch in which I spoke of feeling like a "hunted animal" for much of my life, and I received a huge outpouring of responses from TS-adults which reflected the pain and fear that they still carried inside of themselves as a result of a lifetime of persecution for the 'small sin' of being different from those around them.) 5. Please realize that you are judging an individual, whose future lies in your hands, who has a genuine need for special understanding in order to bring his case to a resolution which will benefit society and the individual himself. It is easy to recognize the special circumstances and needs necessary to dispense true justice in the case of the 'obviously' and the 'acceptably' disabled. When one is confronted with a retarded individual, or a person in a wheel-chair, the special circumstances regarding the disposition of their case are obvious. When judging a person who is rambling on disjointedly about the voices in his or her head, and truly hears them, then the need to take this into consideration is equally obvious. It is much more difficult to put Tourette Syndrome-type behaviors and attitudes into proper perspective, and to judge the part they play in an individuals actions and behaviors. TS traits encompass ADHD and OCD (Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder), and a variety of 'borderline' dysfunctionalities which result in actions and behaviors which are easy to classify as 'willful', 'disrespectful', etc. (Children who won't sit still in their chairs; who utter obscenities; who perform impulsive actions based on irrational, illogical thought processes.) I recognize that there are certain instances in which society's interest is best served by locking up an individual so that they do not do irrepairable harm to others, but if this concept is extended to the point where it becomes the preferred method of dealing with psychological disabilities, out of convenience, then I feel that justice is no longer being served. Society, in return for abridging the rights of an individual to act in any manner that he or she pleases, also takes on the responsibility to ensure that the individual will not unduly suffer as a result of the dictates of society. If society chooses to judge Scott for stepping outside the boundaries of its rule of law, then society must ensure that Scott is afforded the opportunity to gain the medical assistance that he needs in order to deal with his disabilities within the bounds of society's laws. Imprisonment is hardly likely to be a solution that will result in changes to Scott's medical disabilities. If the legal system is not able to propose an alternative to imprisonment, then what hope is there, really, for anyone who is engaged in a daily battle to overcome the trials, tribulations and stigmatism associated with the affliction of Tourette Syndrome. I wish you and Scott all the best in dealing with his present situation, and I hope that you are blessed with a judge who understands that society is composed of individuals and that, in judging the individual, he or she is judging society itself. Love, Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:41:04 -0800 (PST) To: Jim Choate Subject: Re: Fantasy quotes & libel Message-ID: <199701271441.GAA24082@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Jim, I enjoyed the 250,000 legalese-spams that you posted to the cypherpunks list. You are certainly handy with a search-engine. You have certainly shown that the shotgun-approach to legal issues is a valid one, as one of your posts actually came close to being relevant. Jim Choate wrote: > With the current 'editorial control' as provided by the cypherpunks mailing > list the mailing list operator/censor may also be held in some situations > accountable as well. This occurs because the relationship between list > operator and the quoter is similar to that of editor and reporter in a > newspaper. For the quoter to get his quote distributed the list operator > must ok it. The reasoning used is that the editor 'should have known' the > boundaries and applied them. Well, I'm certainly glad to hear that you feel you have the legal standing to sue the pants off of Sandy and John. When you're done with them, you might want to check out Canadian law and think about suing myself, as well. Of course, I realize that, given your strong position in regard to the need not to interfere in the rights of others to exert dicatatorial control over the content which passes through systems that they have paid for with their own money, you would not be so hypocritical as to attempt to interfere with those rights. An intelligent fellow such as yourself certainly wouldn't be so ignorant as to stand up in court and declare that the right to exert dicatatorial power by virtue of money and position should be negated only when it affects you personally. I am sincerely in your debt for pointing out to me that the purchase of my hardware and software, and the money I spend in maintaining it, give me license to exert total control over anything that passes through it. It was only the knowledge that you are a man who stands behind his statements that enabled me to recognize your post expressing whining outrage that the principles you espouse should apply equally to all were meant as humor, despite your failure to add the little happy-face grin :). Toto > Not only is ignorance not an excuse but neither is negligence. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:40:57 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Cypher-Apology Message-ID: <199701271440.GAA24073@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I seem to have posted one of my private emails to the conference by mistake. It was in regard to a lady whose son is going to court in the morning and has nothing to do with crypto. (unless I try to make a supremely long leap in relating Tourette Syndrome to the Timmy May 'cocksucker' postings) My first instinct was to blame Bill Gates for holding me hostage and forcing me to use Win95. My second instinct was to try to excuse my error by blaming the ingestion of large amounts of drugs and alcohol for my misdirection of my email. However, after consultation with the space aliens who speak to me through the mercury filling in my teeth, I have come to the realization that the error was the result of the fact that I am a fucking idiot. I imagine that my apology will not be received by those on the censored list, as I have just 'flamed' myself. I would apologize for this, as well, but I am still sober enough to realize that this could quite possibly result in an endless-apology-loop which would interfere with the rights of those on the cypherpunks-uncensored list to receive the "Make $$Money$$ Fast" postings that Sandy has been so kind to forward to those who oppose censorship of list subscribers. Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Sean Roach Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:41:31 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: THE NEW YORKER on the V-Chip Message-ID: <199701271641.IAA27376@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 12:48 AM 1/24/97 -0800, Greg Broiles wrote: ... >While I think it's always useful to consider unintended (or otherwise >unexpected) consequences, Gladwell's argument sent a shiver down my spine >with its shameless paternalism. This bit (from roughly the middle of his >piece) is what I found creepiest: > >"According to one recent study, somewhere between twenty and twenty-seven >per cent of the parents of four-to six-year-olds never restrict their >children's viewing hours, never decide what programs they can watch, never >change the channel when something objectionable comes on, and never forbid >the watching of certain programs. It has apparently never occurred to these >parents that television can be a bad influence, and it strains credulity to >think that the advent of the V-chip is going to wake them up. Yet their >families - mainly lower-income, ill-educated - are the very ones most in >need of protection from television violence. Here is a rearranging effect >with a vengeance: not only does the V-chip make television worse, it makes >television worse precisely for those already most vulnerable to its excesses." > >I understood Gladwell's point to be, in essence, that the V-chip will allow >TV producers to generate higher levels of morally impure content which he >fears will pollute the minds of poor children because their parents are too >stupid to protect them from the harmful content and too poor to buy new >televisions which will include V-chips. ... What this means is, subsidized v-chip upgrades, and v-chips turned on by default. Now to watch the really good stuff you have to subscribe to "tv-un v-chipped" Sorry, I couldn't resist the pot shot. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Raph Levien Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:41:55 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: List of reliable remailers Message-ID: <199701271641.IAA27392@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I operate a remailer pinging service which collects detailed information about remailer features and reliability. To use it, just finger remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu There is also a Web version of the same information, plus lots of interesting links to remailer-related resources, at: http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~raph/remailer-list.html This information is used by premail, a remailer chaining and PGP encrypting client for outgoing mail. For more information, see: http://www.c2.org/~raph/premail.html For the PGP public keys of the remailers, finger pgpkeys@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu This is the current info: REMAILER LIST This is an automatically generated listing of remailers. The first part of the listing shows the remailers along with configuration options and special features for each of the remailers. The second part shows the 12-day history, and average latency and uptime for each remailer. You can also get this list by fingering remailer-list@kiwi.cs.berkeley.edu. $remailer{"extropia"} = " cpunk pgp special"; $remailer{"mix"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek ksub reord ?"; $remailer{"replay"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut post ek"; $remailer{'alpha'} = ' alpha pgp'; $remailer{'nymrod'} = ' alpha pgp'; $remailer{"lead"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"exon"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"haystack"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"lucifer"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"jam"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"winsock"} = " cpunk pgp pgponly hash cut ksub reord"; $remailer{'nym'} = ' newnym pgp'; $remailer{"balls"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"squirrel"} = " cpunk mix pgp pgponly hash latent cut ek"; $remailer{"middle"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?"; $remailer{'cyber'} = ' alpha pgp'; $remailer{"dustbin"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent cut ek mix reord middle ?"; $remailer{'weasel'} = ' newnym pgp'; $remailer{"death"} = " cpunk pgp hash latent post"; $remailer{"reno"} = " cpunk mix pgp hash middle latent cut ek reord ?"; catalyst@netcom.com is _not_ a remailer. lmccarth@ducie.cs.umass.edu is _not_ a remailer. usura@replay.com is _not_ a remailer. remailer@crynwr.com is _not_ a remailer. There is no remailer at relay.com. Groups of remailers sharing a machine or operator: (cyber mix) (weasel squirrel) The alpha and nymrod nymservers are down due to abuse. However, you can use the nym or weasel (newnym style) nymservers. The cyber nymserver is quite reliable for outgoing mail (which is what's measured here), but is exhibiting serious reliability problems for incoming mail. The squirrel and winsock remailers accept PGP encrypted mail only. 403 Permission denied errors have been caused by a flaky disk on the Berkeley WWW server. This seems to be fixed now. The penet remailer is closed. Last update: Mon 27 Jan 97 6:48:19 PST remailer email address history latency uptime ----------------------------------------------------------------------- nym config@nym.alias.net ****#**#**## 1:33 99.99% balls remailer@huge.cajones.com *****++###*# 2:40 99.98% dustbin dustman@athensnet.com --+---+---+ 2:14:49 99.92% winsock winsock@rigel.cyberpass.net ------------ 4:55:21 99.87% exon remailer@remailer.nl.com ###*### #### :37 99.76% haystack haystack@holy.cow.net ###+*##***#* 29:02 99.72% weasel config@weasel.owl.de ++++++-++++ 1:17:40 99.33% squirrel mix@squirrel.owl.de +++-++++++ 1:16:21 99.16% extropia remail@miron.vip.best.com ----------- 3:58:51 99.13% lead mix@zifi.genetics.utah.edu +*+*+ +++--+ 2:05:09 98.97% middle middleman@jpunix.com -- .-*++. 8:38:28 98.42% mix mixmaster@remail.obscura.com __.-+-.- 25:34:03 97.98% cyber alias@alias.cyberpass.net +*+**+++*+ * 1:28:18 96.80% reno middleman@cyberpass.net -+--- +--+ 1:16:40 95.45% lucifer lucifer@dhp.com ++++++++ + 1:24:25 95.15% replay remailer@replay.com *** * * 16:22 69.31% History key * # response in less than 5 minutes. * * response in less than 1 hour. * + response in less than 4 hours. * - response in less than 24 hours. * . response in more than 1 day. * _ response came back too late (more than 2 days). cpunk A major class of remailers. Supports Request-Remailing-To: field. eric A variant of the cpunk style. Uses Anon-Send-To: instead. penet The third class of remailers (at least for right now). Uses X-Anon-To: in the header. pgp Remailer supports encryption with PGP. A period after the keyword means that the short name, rather than the full email address, should be used as the encryption key ID. hash Supports ## pasting, so anything can be put into the headers of outgoing messages. ksub Remailer always kills subject header, even in non-pgp mode. nsub Remailer always preserves subject header, even in pgp mode. latent Supports Matt Ghio's Latent-Time: option. cut Supports Matt Ghio's Cutmarks: option. post Post to Usenet using Post-To: or Anon-Post-To: header. ek Encrypt responses in reply blocks using Encrypt-Key: header. special Accepts only pgp encrypted messages. mix Can accept messages in Mixmaster format. reord Attempts to foil traffic analysis by reordering messages. Note: I'm relying on the word of the remailer operator here, and haven't verified the reord info myself. mon Remailer has been known to monitor contents of private email. filter Remailer has been known to filter messages based on content. If not listed in conjunction with mon, then only messages destined for public forums are subject to filtering. Raph Levien From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Gemini Thunder Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:26:16 -0800 (PST) To: Frank Willoughby Subject: Re: WinKrypt Message-ID: <199701271426.GAA23772@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Thus sprach Frank Willoughby : >Out of curiosity, is anyone familiar with WinKrypt by Syncronsys? Syncronsys [sp?] Software is the maker of SoftRam95, a program that supposedly doubled your memory through memory compression and other quasi-magical means. It was later revealed that not only did it not work as advertised, but it actually did not do anything at all (except display graphs indicating non-existant improvements). IIRC, they lost a class action suit over this issue. I would trust an encryption program relased to the public by the NSA more than anything these charlatans released. [snip] >I was curious how it compares to McAfee's PC Crypto which uses >40-bit DES or 160-bit Blowfish (user-chooses) & other PC/laptop >encryption products. BTW, I would also appreciate your input >on any crypto products which you believe to be robust, easy-to-use >& secure. (I know I can only have 2 out of 3, but it's worth a try >anyway). 8^) I consider PGP to be robust, easy-to-use (with some front-end assistance), and secure. However, I am by no means an authority on crypto. __________ - 2[b]||!2[b] /* What's the question? It's a tautology! */ - 0x2B|!0x2B /* == FFFFFFFF */ From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: aga Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:41:19 -0800 (PST) To: "Igor Chudov @ home" Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime? Message-ID: <199701271441.GAA24106@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain drgrubor is now at the pgh.org instead of aol.com On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > [Cc: to Dr. John Martin Grubor, Law Systems Institute, Medical-Cannabis Assn] > > Jim Choate wrote: > > > > > > Landskroner, LTD. [INLINE] > > > > Libel / Slander > > I am not sure if you posted this information in response to my request > to cite a statute that would prove that libel is a crime. > > Me> Jim Choate wrote: > Me> > > Me> > > Me> > > Me> > Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that > Me> > party did not write them is a crime? > Me> > Me> cite the statute > > > These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel > is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government > cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured > (libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case. > That is correct. Libel is a tort and not a crime. > I would appreciate if someone more knowledgeable about the law could > comment on this. I may be mistaken. > > igor No, you are correct Igor. Libel is written defamation, and defamation is NEVER a crime in the USA. It may be in other countries, but not the good old USA. > > > Libel / Slander is an area that involves defamatory oral or written > > statements containing false and misleading material which causes > > damage or injury to reputation and/or monetary loss. > > And it is tough to prove. Just where was this article posted at? > > We provide a quick review of their success stories , some media and > > newspaper articles about what they've been able to do for their > > clients, and published articles about this topic. > > > > Please e-mail us with questions about our service! Landskroner and > > Phillips > > [INLINE] > > > > Nationally Recognized Consumer Trial Advocates. > > Over 100 Years combined experience in both State and Federal Courts. > > These guys do not know what they are talking about. > > 55 Public Square, Tenth Floor, Cleveland Ohio 44113-1904 > > Phone: (216) 241-7000 > > Fax: (216) 241-3135 > > Toll Free: (888) 241-7001 > > [INLINE] > > > > > > - Igor. > The assholes are not Criminal Lawyers, and I will give them a call to check them out... I left a mesage with them. and told the InterNet lawyer to call be back. This is just a Civil Law firm looking for business. -aga From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:43:13 -0800 (PST) To: Daniel Harter Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701271643.IAA27437@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Daniel Harter wrote: > ichudov@algebra.com wrote: > > Dale Thorn wrote: > > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > Why do they take antibiotics? Just curious. > To treat various Venerial Diseases whose standard treatments are > antibiotics. > > Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system, > > has that been proven? > What does seem to have credence is that the use of antibiotics breeds > resistant strains of bacteria, which may or may not be contagious. > A book that poses an opposing viewpoint to the current AIDS epidemic > is _The AIDS War_ by John Lauritsen (1993, Asklepios, New York, ISBN > 0-943742-08-0). It is written from a Gay man's perspective dissenting > from the current HIV-AIDS theory. Another book he wrote is _Poison by > Prescription: The AZT Story_. Also search on Peter H. Duesberg for > primary sources in various Journals. According to my AIDS database, a possible reason for the "hotly debated" theories of Duesberg is that because of the suspicion falling on the govt. and the WHO in regard to creating the HIV virus, the govt. was happy to have Duesberg and ilk deflecting a lot of that criticism. This doesn't make Duesberg wrong by implication, but there were suggestions of disinformation.... From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Daniel Harter Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:41:17 -0800 (PST) To: ichudov@algebra.com Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701271441.GAA24105@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain ichudov@algebra.com wrote: > Dale Thorn wrote: > > Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > > > > > Both homosexual males and IV drug users are well known to take a lot > > > > > of antobiotics, which lowers the efficacy of the immune system enough > > > > > to allow most anything to happen, ultimately leading to auto-immune > > > > > problems. > > > > > Jim and Dale, I agree. > > > Also shooting one's bloodstream full of fecal matter hardly helps. > > > > My point about the antibiotics is that the male gays take a dis- > > proportionate amount of them, which compounds their problems. It > > suggests to me that the immune system is already seriously debilitated > > or damaged before AIDS can take hold, rather than the notion that a > > healthy person can get it from the virii alone. > > > > One could argue that in the cases where the cures (antibiotics) add to > > a person's problems by further corrupting their immune system, that > > they should simply change their habits. Since I don't see that as a > > reasonable possibility, the only thing left is that the public should > > be made aware of *all* of the relevant facts, even those which are > > heavily suppressed now for PC reasons. > > Why do they take antibiotics? Just curious. To treat various Venerial Diseases whose standard treatments are antibiotics. > Also, I haven't heard that antibiotics were bad for immune system, > has that been proven? What does seem to have credence is that the use of antibiotics breeds resistant strains of bacteria, which may or may not be contagious. A book that poses an opposing viewpoint to the current AIDS epidemic is _The AIDS War_ by John Lauritsen (1993, Asklepios, New York, ISBN 0-943742-08-0). It is written from a Gay man's perspective dissenting from the current HIV-AIDS theory. Another book he wrote is _Poison by Prescription: The AZT Story_. Also search on Peter H. Duesberg for primary sources in various Journals. Dan Harter dharter@harter.pg.md.us From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Peterson, Mike Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:46:05 -0800 (PST) To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com> Subject: Posting percentages Message-ID: <199701271746.JAA28997@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dr. Dimitri Vulus KOTM wrote: Rabid Wombat writes: >> Regardless of which side you take on this matter, remember that the issue >> was forced by the actions of an extremely small segment of the list >> "population." >The list "population" (readers) is a couple of thousand people, almost >all of whom are lurkers. All posters are an extremely small segment of >the readership. It's true on most Internet forums. Just because us "lurkers" don't post, doesn't mean that we aren't taking sides, agreeing, disagreeing, or otherwise. Small portions of the population doesn't mean that the rest of us have no comment, just not the will to make the post. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Ross Wright Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:46:45 -0800 (PST) To: dlv@bwalk.dm.com> Subject: Re: Censorship Message-ID: <199701271746.JAA29042@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On or About 26 Jan 97 at 22:28, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > "Ross Wright" writes: > > > On or About 26 Jan 97 at 2:19, blanc wrote: > >> > > >Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > > >>>Jim Choate wrote: > > > >>>>>Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: > > > >>>>>>>irrelevant@nowhere.com wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>Dale Thorn wrote: > > > > > > It can be said 100,000 times, but it still comes out the same: > > > Just as in "The only cure for bad speech is more speech", "the > > > only cure for 'list-focus-drift' is more on-focus postings". > > > > THE PRICE OF FREE SPEECH IS TOLERANCE OF IDEAS THAT WE MAY > > OBJECT TO. > > Comversely, some people are willing to give up their own freedom of > speech so as to silence others whose views they don't like. Who could be that stupid? Why would they even want to give up an inch of their freedoms? >They > hope that they'll be censored less than their "enemies". A weak hope at best. Once you start censoring it becomes a "Slippery Slope". > But a forum > can't be "a little bit censored" just like a woman can't be "a > little bit pregnant". You got that right! =-=-=-=-=-=- Ross Wright King Media: Bulk Sales of Software Media and Duplication Services http://www.slip.net/~cdr/kingmedia Voice: 415-206-9906 From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Brian D Williams Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:46:31 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701271746.JAA29022@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Toto writes: > There has been great concern raised among those in the medical >profession regarding the end-effects of their wholesale >prescribing of anitbiotics for colds, aches and pains, etc., >leading to the development of new strains of virus which are >immune to the older antibiotics. This leads to development of >stronger (misused) antibiotics, which then leads to stronger >strains of virus. > There have been a number of studies which point to the fact that >the human immune system is now caught in a battle between >increasingly potent virus and antibiotics and is losing its >capacity to fightits 'natural' enemies. Antibiotics are for fighting bacterial infections. Antibiotics have no effect on viruses at all. However you are accurate in that the abuse of antibiotics for things like colds (a virus, no effect) has led us to a very dangerous situation. (antibiotic resistant bacteria) I suggest the book "The Coming Plague" who's authors name escapes me at the moment, if you, or anyone else is interested. Brian Cypherpunk Extropian " You can lead a horse to water, but you can't faucet." From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Bill Stewart Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:15:48 -0800 (PST) To: harka@nycmetro.com Subject: Re: Passphrase Online... Message-ID: <199701282115.NAA02542@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>If I am connected to the Internet via a SLIP/PPP connection and I >>type my passphrase while being online (for example, in Private >>Idaho, after getting my mail), could that passphrase be compromised? >>If so, how would that be done? You're much safer if you're using an operating system instead of a kluge like Windows... On the other hand, operating systems make it easier to run applications like telnet servers that allow someone else to connect to your system while you're on line. Some different ways you could be at risk include - someone sends you a keystroke-sniffer program and tricks your machine into running it - so it grabs your passphrase from PI or PGP and sends it in later - someone sends you a keystroke-sniffer program and tricks _you_ into running it, whether they use email, web, etc. - someone logs into your system, guesses that the root password is "trustno1", and modifies your copy of PGP to save keystrokes. (On MSDOS, of course, you don't _need_ a root password.) - someone sets up a web page with an evil ActiveX script that convinces your Internet Explorer to download a new copy of PGP. - someone sends you email with an attachment named ..\..\..\windows\pgp.exe and your mail system is dumb enough to accept the pathname. - somebody sends you email with an MS-Word/Excel/PPT attachment that, instead of having a dumb Concept macro virus, has a macro that does something useful like replace your copy of PGP, and you don't have any innoculation on your MS-Word. - any of the above, where the "pgp" program is replaced with one that's almost identical but uses non-random numbers instead of good randoms, and maybe also leaks out your secret key or passphrase. - any of the above, where your email program is modified to add Cc: janet@kremvax.su on outgoing smtp. > Still paranoid? Good! # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Sandy Sandfort Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:28:59 -0800 (PST) To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701271928.LAA02313@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Sun, 26 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote: > You need have no sympathy. Those members of this list see it as it > is, a list that was supposed to be, in some small way, a "model" of > an anarchistic discussion forum for the subject of cryptography,... Nonsense. It was supposed to be a discussion of crypto and other technologies in support of privacy. The founders, Hughes, Gilmore, May and Daniel were focusing on that goal. The list structure was anarchistic (and still is to those who understand the concept of anarco-capitalism). Obviously Gilmore is not wedded to the idea of letting every fool use his bandwidth. In personal discussions as recently as yesterday, Hughes had no problem in supporting some mechanism to promote civility on the list. I don't think anything May has written would suggest he would have a problem with keeping things polite. His only argument seems to be over methodology. He thinks filtering is the answer; I don't. Reasonable minds may differ. Hugh Daniel has been instrumental in providing technical help with regard to moderation. Finally, the fact that the vast majority of list members have not seen fit to "vote with their feet" should suggest how most really feel about moderation. (By the way, if you don't like moderation, you would hate Eric Hughes' favored solution.) > ...That was the intended direction of the list, it > has rapidly disentigrated over recent months into a censored list > where the elite post to the main list and anyone else is nearly > always relegated to a seperate list for the crypto-untermenshcen. Again, nonsense. The moderation experiment (moderation, not censorship) has been in effect for all of ONE WEEK. Where does Paul get this hysterical "recent months" stuff? > If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty try the following: > > Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was > to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and > related issues... Paul's argument is the essence of literal conservativism, "but I don't things to change!" Without change, though, there can be no progress. Moderation is a one-month experiment. There is no intellectual dishonesty in saying, "let's try something else for a while." > Now imagine that list falling into a state of content based > censorship and censorship based on an unspoken but ever present > class structure,... "Unspoken but ever present class structure"? I wonder how Paul was able to divine this? Certainly it is unspoken, but that, of course, it because it does not exist anywhere but in Paul's fertile imagination. > It is a foregone conclusion that the upper class of list members will > have no dispute over the censorship and therefore the change will be > permenant,... Great! I thought that hadn't been determined yet. What a relief. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Rick Osborne Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:41:25 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks mailing list Subject: OTP security Message-ID: <199701271641.IAA27364@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I was thinking about the thread we had a week or so ago about OTPs. Say I'm going to burn a CD of what I think are cryptographically random bits, but somehow I end up with part of my stream being predictable (say every 16th bit). What does this do to the security of my CD? _________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________ Sam Jones on the Nine Types of User: Shaman - "Last week, when the moon was full, the clouds were thick, and formahaut was above the horizon, I typed f77, and lo, it did compile." Advantages: Gives insight into primative mythology. Disadvantages: Few scons are anthropology majors. Symptoms: Frequent questions about irrelavent objects. Real Case: One user complained that all information on one of their disks got erased (as Norton Utilities showed nothing but empty sectors, I suspect nothing had ever been on it). Reasoning that the deleted information went *somewhere*, they wouldn't shut up until the scon checked four different disks for the missing information. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Lou Poppler Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:46:43 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Moderated list is missing headers Message-ID: <199701271746.JAA29041@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain The arguments about imaginary quotes and libel are harder to untangle because the moderation process seems to consume the mail headers showing the messages' travels before reaching toad.com. I suggest that these headers are signal not noise, and should be propagated if at all possible. We have had problems in the past with forgeries, and should retain this basic tool for evaluating a message's source. I know I could get these from the unmoderated list -- but I prefer the moderated version so far, and think they should be here also. I know PGP signatures are a better way of authenticating a message. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Received: from toad.com (toad.com [140.174.2.1]) by mail.msen.com (8.8.5/8.6.12) with ESMTP id KAA02344 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:58:05 -0500 (EST) Received: (from majordom@localhost) by toad.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id GAA24082; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:41:04 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701271441.GAA24082@toad.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 04:33:05 -0800 From: Toto To: Jim Choate Cc: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Fantasy quotes & libel Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com Precedence: bulk [ message body irrelevant ] From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Kevin L Prigge Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:27:15 -0800 (PST) To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701271927.LAA02277@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said: > > I think both of these groups are intellectually dishonest in the > > extreme when it comes to telling others how this list should be > > run. I doubt any of them would permit the sort of disruptive > > behavior that goes on here to go unchallenged in salons they > > sponsor in their own homes or on Net lists that they themselves > > maintain. > > If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty try the following: > > Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was > to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and > related issues. A list which proudly proclaims in its "welcome to > the list" message: > > We do not seek to prevent other people from > speaking about their experiences or their opinions. > > Now imagine that list falling into a state of content based > censorship and censorship based on an unspoken but ever present > class structure, then ask yourself which list you know that most > closely matches this description, it`s a pretty revealing exercise. The exercise reveals to me that only by ignoring the first paragraph of your example, the part that reads "Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and related issues." can you make a claim of content based censorship. The purpose of this list was and should be discussion of cryptography and related issues. The fact that some people choose this as a forum for personal attacks and blathering about issues that are not even vaguely related to the discussion of cryptography and related issues does not make it a proper forum for such communication. > > This is a voluntary list folks. We tried incivility and that did > > not work. Right now we are experimenting with reasoned discourse > > in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and good will. > > For "Reasoned discourse in an atmosphere of interpersonal respect and > good will" read "content based censorship". For "voluntary list" read "voluntary list". > > > If most list members like the change, it will continue. If not, then we > > can go back to the swill or perhaps try something else. In the > > meantime, get over it. If you really like flames and spam, show > > John and me how it really should be done. Start another list. > > Of course squating and claim jumping appeal to the lazy a lot > > more than homesteading. > > It is a foregone conclusion that the upper class of list members will > have no dispute over the censorship and therefore the change will be > permenant, it is a form of online ethnic cleansing whereby the lists > clique of illuminati have taken it upon themselves to remove the > elements of the list they feel endanger their position of superiority > and respect, the point they have missed is that they have no > credibility whatsoever after this incident, as well as a number of > other such occurances and therefore are only isolating themselves > into their own little world. The Big Lie once again. yadda yadda yadda "Censorship!" yadda yadda yadda "No Credibility" yadda yadda yadda ad nauseum. > > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship" "Idiots will make the networks require censorship" -- Kevin L. Prigge | Some mornings, it's just not worth Systems Software Programmer | chewing through the leather straps. Internet Enterprise - OIT | - Emo Phillips University of Minnesota | From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Alec Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:29:45 -0800 (PST) To: Cypherpunks Subject: Privacy/info site Message-ID: <199701271929.LAA02341@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I stumbled upon this site and have not had an opportunity to visit it in toto (certainly no pun intended, Mr. Toto). Seems to have a wealth of info and links for the military/security oriented. http://hrvati.cronet.com/mprofaca/mcsusa2.html Alec From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Blanc Weber Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:13:04 -0800 (PST) To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com> Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701272213.OAA07242@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain From: Sandy Sandfort (By the way, if you don't like moderation, you would hate Eric Hughes' favored solution.) ............................................... What was that? .. Blanc From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "David Lesher / hated by RBOC's in 5 states" Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:31:46 -0800 (PST) To: Martin Minow Subject: Re: Xerox is watching you Message-ID: <199701271931.LAA02403@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Martin Minow sez: > > You'll find an article worth a visit to the dentist in the January > 1997 issue of Popular Science. It tells a story from the 1960's > cold war era. You might take this to alt.folklore.urban. Barring any factual support, it better fits there. After all Popular Science once had their famous battery carrier design, and an older friend related reading of their scheme to reduce the weight of battle tanks to get them up the Burma Road during WWII. It involved helium, and to reduce space, it was to be compressed into large cylinders bolted to the sides........ -- A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com & no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433 is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: SpyKing Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:41:09 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Best Computer School? Message-ID: <199701271941.LAA02719@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a teenage son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer science in college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's leaning toward MIT. Any suggestions from list members as to colleges to investigate? From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Huge Cajones Remailer Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:11:21 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Shave the Whales Message-ID: <199701272211.OAA07204@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dr.Disruptive Vasectomy died of AIDS last night with his homosexual lover. \|/ @ @ -oOO-(_)-OOo- Dr.Disruptive Vasectomy From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: John Shaft Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:47:52 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Passphrase Online... Message-ID: <199701271947.LAA03025@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>If I am connected to the Internet via a SLIP/PPP connection and I >>type my passphrase while being online (for example, in Private >>Idaho, after getting my mail), could that passphrase be compromised? >>If so, how would that be done? There are a number of things that can happen. Basically, if you don't directly control the device/application that is doing the encryption for you, you run the risk of someone intercepting whatever you xmit. For example, if you have a dial up type shell account with your local ISP, and you depend on some UNIX based encryption program to secure your mail (running on the ISP's machine), anyone with root access can tap the tty and watch you enter your passphrase. You're also susceptable (sp?) to someone taping your phone line and looking at you with a packet analyzer. I suppose if you were doing something locally, and someone wanted to be really sneaky, they could embed something like keycopy on your machine (with a virus or something) and get coppied every time you enter a keystroke. I don't suppose it would be all that difficult to get a machine to run a tsr that got kicked off every time you accessed something like, say , PGP....Comments? Shaft! Damn Straigt. shaft@africamail.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Sandy Sandfort Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:53:57 -0800 (PST) To: Blanc Weber Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701272253.OAA08340@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Blanc Weber wrote: > From: Sandy Sandfort > > (By the way, if you don't like moderation, you would hate Eric Hughes' > favored solution.) > ............................................... > > > What was that? Eric, would like to require a deposit ($20 was the example he gave) from subscriber/posters. Non-subscribers would not be allowed to post. Subscribers who voluntarily left the list, would get their deposit back. Subscribers who flamed twice (every dog gets one bite) would be kicked off the list and their deposit would be forfeited (or perhaps turned over to the flame victim). S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: iamme Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:25:35 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: casio dialer Message-ID: <199701271425.GAA23737@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain anyone heard of casio .. phone dialer watch ? it's stated that user can phone for free using public phone .. anyone ? From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: jim bell Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:52:33 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com> Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime? Message-ID: <199701272252.OAA08289@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 01:14 AM 1/27/97 -0600, ichudov@algebra.com wrote: >I am not sure if you posted this information in response to my request >to cite a statute that would prove that libel is a crime. > >Me> Jim Choate wrote: >Me> > >Me> > >Me> > >Me> > Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that >Me> > party did not write them is a crime? >Me> >Me> cite the statute > > >These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel >is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government >cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured >(libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case. On the contrary, in some jurisdictions libel is indeed a crime. However, that doesn't mean that prosecutions happen anymore, but the laws are (in some places) still on the books. Jim Bell jimbell@pacifier.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: jim bell Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:52:34 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com> Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime? Message-ID: <199701272252.OAA08288@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 01:14 AM 1/27/97 -0600, ichudov@algebra.com wrote: >I am not sure if you posted this information in response to my request >to cite a statute that would prove that libel is a crime. > >Me> Jim Choate wrote: >Me> > >Me> > >Me> > >Me> > Are you aware that attributing statements in print to a party when that >Me> > party did not write them is a crime? >Me> >Me> cite the statute > > >These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel >is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government >cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured >(libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case. On the contrary, in some jurisdictions libel is indeed a crime. However, that doesn't mean that prosecutions happen anymore, but the laws are (in some places) still on the books. Jim Bell jimbell@pacifier.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: ichudov@algebra.com Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:42:03 -0800 (PST) To: Kevin L Prigge Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701272142.NAA06336@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Kevin L Prigge wrote: > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said: > > > I think both of these groups are intellectually dishonest in the > > > extreme when it comes to telling others how this list should be > > > run. I doubt any of them would permit the sort of disruptive > > > behavior that goes on here to go unchallenged in salons they > > > sponsor in their own homes or on Net lists that they themselves > > > maintain. > > > > If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty try the following: > > > > Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was > > to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and > > related issues. A list which proudly proclaims in its "welcome to > > the list" message: > > > > We do not seek to prevent other people from > > speaking about their experiences or their opinions. > > > > Now imagine that list falling into a state of content based > > censorship and censorship based on an unspoken but ever present > > class structure, then ask yourself which list you know that most > > closely matches this description, it`s a pretty revealing exercise. > > The exercise reveals to me that only by ignoring the first paragraph > of your example, the part that reads "Imagine if you will a list, > the original purpose of which was to act as a free and open forum > for discussion of cryptography and related issues." can you make > a claim of content based censorship. The purpose of this list was Then why discussion of machine guns should be allowed here? igor From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Erp Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:55:17 -0800 (PST) To: John Shaft Subject: Re: Passphrase Online... Message-ID: <199701272255.OAA08389@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > I suppose if you were doing something locally, and someone wanted to be > really sneaky, they could embed something like keycopy on your machine (with > a virus or something) and get coppied every time you enter a keystroke. I > don't suppose it would be all that difficult to get a machine to run a tsr > that got kicked off every time you accessed something like, say , > PGP....Comments? Ok, just something that would be a nasty little virii in its own way... If there was a virii produced that copied down a persons keystrokes every time, and then when they logged onto the InterNet aka aachieved a PPP/Slip connection, it automatically sent (without there knowing) a copy of all the keystorkes they have made so far, and then deletes them from an encrypted file, or from within a file it has been adding them too *shrug*... .. aka Automatically sends it to say an anonymous email account or some such. Ok *shrug* jsut an idea... later..... Erp *************************************************** Hey we have fun here at hell! Check us out if your lucky: http://www.fromhell.com/ From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Erp Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:03:06 -0800 (PST) To: SpyKing Subject: Re: Best Computer School? Message-ID: <199701280003.QAA10002@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, SpyKing wrote: > This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a teenage > son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer science in > college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's leaning toward MIT. > Any suggestions from list members as to colleges to investigate? Well in reference to MIT.. I hope he has a 4.0 in highschool, is an allsport, has a 1600 on his SAT's, and a prefect on his ACT.. Just to even think about going there.. Let alone to include how well he'll have to do on his interviews etc.. Also you may wish to have him look again at what he wants to be before he goes to some major college such as MIT, because tuition at MIT costs approx 100,000$/4 years. Personally that is a hell of a lot, but then again *shrug*... I recommend going to a local small college, get his associates, see if that is what he still wants to do, then go on from there. I know many people that started in Computer Science and died after the first year. Now colleges that are good for Computer Sc ience.. I have heard that RIT is good.. but I'm nto sure on that.. I know pretty well positive that MIT is excellent, but when you get down to the basics MIT is more of an engineering school than a science/philosophical school which Computer Sciences falls under.. Another good school from what I've heard is UCLA.. then again you can discredit anything I've said, because I'm still a HighSchool senior myself and have been looking into Computer Criminology for the last three years, and I'm positive it is what i want so *shrug*.. Ok later... Erp **********************************************************8 See about coming from hell at: http://www.fromhell.com/ From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Mark M." Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:31:27 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks Subject: Re: Moderated list is missing headers Message-ID: <199701272231.OAA07671@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Lou Poppler wrote: > The arguments about imaginary quotes and libel are harder to untangle > because the moderation process seems to consume the mail headers showing > the messages' travels before reaching toad.com. I suggest that these > headers are signal not noise, and should be propagated if at all possible. > We have had problems in the past with forgeries, and should retain this > basic tool for evaluating a message's source. I agree, except I rely on this to sort the moderated and unmoderated lists into separate folders. I'm sure the bugs are still being worked out, but it would be much easier to filter if the sender header was set appropriately. Here's the procmail recipe in case anyone's interested: :0 * ^Sender: owner-cypherpunks@toad.com { :0 * -1^1 ^Received: * 4^1 ^Received:.*from majordom@localhost.*by toad.com * ^Message-Id:.*toad.com in.cpunks :0 unedited } The number 4 should be changed depending on how many hops a message must make to reach its destination. Mark -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3 Charset: noconv iQEVAwUBMu0gyyzIPc7jvyFpAQGCrAgAlIT6oSZ18sVGuMQWeszAWPE67BwMRx/1 2CLsrtpCaKfj5j+C5DsT2dpv4IhlOFOftrtCPL8KOEot5YRg3mUeUl7efwfnioeB UmM3h7Zx8W5RFZlTlhMim58G5o88jYVE3Rsov+f8nYM9hoXPDyjgoZmnG4BUn8Ca saL3ul2zO39bB4YwRmBKCeXRBzefmaowJbdC7Hl+S+uU61+Dbtbk/Fq2o5B9Gsvq wjg3QF4u+oyDCfcxdmLajL9tE6K7L2bgEkvi9kxt7AUP5e/l53epXK9cFplYF0B6 qgPd0shYmWiTSbhjQ4tw6jZkxuyxWqFX/nAHGp7Tciqp/rIkwX/tNQ== =riw1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:02:30 -0800 (PST) To: Rick Osborne Subject: Re: OTP security Message-ID: <199701280102.RAA11550@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > I was thinking about the thread we had a week or so ago about OTPs. Say > I'm going to burn a CD of what I think are cryptographically random bits, > but somehow I end up with part of my stream being predictable (say every > 16th bit). What does this do to the security of my CD? Depends on how that 16th bit is related to the other bits and whether these predictable bits give any information about the other bits on the disk. If we assume all the other bits are true random and that the 16th bits are predictable only in that they can be predicted left and right but do not depend upon the other bits not in positions 16, 32, 48, 16n etc... we can just discard them and use the rest obtaining perfect security. We can even use all the bits and all we lose is one bit every two bytes and therefore if we are calling the bytes ASCII and say adding mod 13 we only have "imperfect" security on every 2nd character where there are 2^7 eg. 128 possible characters. Suprisingly this yields perfect security as there are still a number of possible pads which lead to reasonable and plausible decryptions. Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey" From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: ichudov@algebra.com Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:59:53 -0800 (PST) To: Sandy Sandfort Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701272359.PAA09886@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sandy Sandfort wrote: > > (By the way, if you don't like moderation, you would hate Eric Hughes' > > favored solution.) > > What was that? > > Eric, would like to require a deposit ($20 was the example he > gave) from subscriber/posters. Non-subscribers would not be > allowed to post. Subscribers who voluntarily left the list, > would get their deposit back. Subscribers who flamed twice > (every dog gets one bite) would be kicked off the list and their > deposit would be forfeited (or perhaps turned over to the flame > victim). Obviously, you will not be able to effectively collect from non-posters, since anyone would be able to resell subscriptions. Also, anyone can create a usenet newsgroups like alt.cypherpunks, or cypherpunks.general, which would be free. Lots of competing cypherpunks mailing lists would spring up. You would make some money out of it (like maybe $700 or so), but would waste so much time that it would not be worth the trouble. - Igor. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: ichudov@algebra.com Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:26:17 -0800 (PST) To: Erp Subject: Re: Best Computer School? Message-ID: <199701280126.RAA12277@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain moscow state university in russia is not bad also. they teach lots of theory... which is good. - Igor. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Mullen, Patrick Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:46:10 -0800 (PST) To: "'Cypherpunks'" Subject: Handbook of Applied Cryptography Message-ID: <199701272246.OAA08096@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain (My apologies if someone else has posted this information and I missed it.) _Handbook_of_Applied_Cryptography_, Menezes, Oorschot, Vanstone, CRC Press, Boca Raton, 1997 With a foreword by R.L. Rivest Contents in Brief: Table of Contents v List of Tables xv List of Figures xix Foreword xxi Preface xxiii 1 Overview of Cryptography 1 2 Mathematical Background 49 3 Number-Theoretic Reverence Problems 87 4 Pulic-Key Parameters 133 5 Pseudorandom Bits and Sequences 169 6 Stream Ciphers 191 7 Block Ciphers 223 8 Public-Key Encryption 283 9 Hash Functions and Data Integrity 321 10 Identification and Entity Authentication 385 11 Digital Signatures 425 12 Key Establishment Protocols 489 13 Key Management Techniques 543 14 Efficient Implementation 591 15 Patents and Standards 635 A Bibliography of Papers from Selected Cryptographic Forums 663 References 703 Index 775 >From the back cover: << BEGIN QUOTE >> Cryptography, in particular public-key cryptography, has emerged in the las 20 years as an important discipline that is not only the subject of an enormous amount of research, but provides the foundation for information security in many applications. Standards are emerging to meet the demands for cryptographic protection in most areas of data communications. Public- key cryptographic techniques are now in widespread use in industry, especially in the financial services industry, in the public sector, and by individuals for their personal privacy, such as in electronic mail. This Handbook will serve as a valuable reference for the novice as well as for the expert who needs a wider scope of coverage within the aread of cryptography. It is a necessary and timely guide for professionals who practice the art of cryptography. The _Handbook_of_Applied_Cryptography_ provides a treatment that is multifunctional: * It serves as an introduction to the more practical aspects of both conventional and public-key cryptography * It is a valuable source of the latest techniques and algorithms for the serious practitioner * It provides an integrated treatment of the field, whil still presenting each major topic as a self-contained unit * It provides a mathematical treatment to accompany practical discussions * It contains enough abstractoin to be a valuable reference for theoreticians while containing enough detail to actually allow implementation of the algorithms discussed This is the definitive cryptography reference that novice as well as experienced developers, designers, researchers, engineers, computer scientists, and mathematicials alike will find indispensable. << END QUOTE >> ~~ Patrick From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Peter M Allan Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:49:15 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: S/KEY (was: 2 Questions) Message-ID: <199701271949.LAA03073@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Steven M Orrin wrote: > Hey guys, > 2 quick questions: > Are there any known hacks or weaknesses in S/Key? S/Key has a rather limited scope, in aiming to prevent replay attacks. These are where somebody snoops on your network to obtain passwords, an uses them in later login attempts. This is undoubtedly a major weakness in most current networks. S/Key addresses this replay of data obtained in passive eavesdropping, but that is all it does. Several attacks against S/Key have been discussed [1], including: race attacks: eavesdropping most of the hash, and racing the user to provide the rest of it active attacks: impersonating the server to learn future hashes or simply hijacking an established session. Strengthening S/Key really means expanding the scope to get an authenticated and encrypted 2-way connection. [John Gilmore's S/WAN may end up achieving this. I'm not familiar with it (yet?).] Ideas for improving S/Key that involve secret data stored on the server tend to get frowned on, as the original aim was to avoid that. In any case you cannot get the full encrypted 2-way connection without getting a whole lot more complicated. Recent discussions [2] have centred on ways to rekey the list of hashes remotely when the count runs down. These changes, and S/Key itself, are better than nothing but where's the ham sandwich ? [3] Beside the protocol weakness there is potential for finding collisions in the hash function (MD4 originally). A choice of hash functions can be provided. See RFC-1938. 1) See also SecureID, which is more complicated and still subject to similar attacks. 2) Not here. 3) Old joke. A ham sandwich is better than nothing, and nothing is better than a life of complete happiness, so ...... -- Peter Allan peter.allan@aeat.co.uk From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Nurdane Oksas Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:07:54 -0800 (PST) To: Dale Thorn Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) Message-ID: <199701280107.RAA11760@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote: > Nurdane Oksas wrote: > > On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > > Nurdane Oksas wrote: > > > > California is know for very beautiful girls ... > > > > wrong. > > > well, seems D. Thorn agrees with the song: 'california girls' > > Depends on where you go, and what time of year. So. Cal. is no doubt > a revolving door for the girl markets, especially on the beach board- > walks, or on San Vicente where a lot of joggers run. seems, Americans like their own women , which is all they have seen maybe... > > Anywhere else and it's no different from Cleveland or Pittsburgh. Well, can you say you've been 'anywhere else'? Regards, From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Steven M Orrin Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:41:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: S/KEY (was: 2 Questions) Message-ID: <199701280341.TAA15650@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Thanks to Bill and Peter for your help. Steveo From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: John Young Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:11:00 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Handbook of Applied Cryptography Message-ID: <199701280311.TAA14917@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Here's the publisher's URL for Handbook of Applied Cryptography, which amplifies Patrick's summary, and gives ordering info. http://www.crcpress.com/PRODS/8523.HTM Just reading the mouthwatering summaries and the extensive, detailed list of topics is a good primer on crypto. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: John Young Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:09:42 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Handbook of Applied Cryptography Message-ID: <199701282109.NAA01903@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Here's the publisher's URL for Handbook of Applied Cryptography, which amplifies Patrick's summary, and gives ordering info. http://www.crcpress.com/PRODS/8523.HTM Just reading the mouthwatering summaries and the extensive, detailed list of topics is a good primer on crypto. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Rob Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:11:56 -0800 (PST) To: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On 26 Jan 1997 18:59:32 -0500, you wrote: [..] >It doesn't seem to work with the mail program in MS IE, or MS WordMail. >I understand why some people don't like Microsoft, but excluding >support for popular Microsoft programs seems contrary to their >stated goal of promoting the use of crypto. I believe (according to their page) it's in the works to add support for other programs. It might also be that the MS CryptoAPI may impose limitations on crypto plug-ins that require annoying hacks to use conveniently. But maybe not... I'm surprised the didn't mention Pegasus Mail, which is an amazing "hot" mailer, with a sort-of built-in crypto plug-in capability... it's also free. Rob ----- "The word to kill ain't dirty | Robert Rothenburg (WlkngOwl@unix.asb.com) I used it in the last line | http://www.asb.com/usr/wlkngowl/ but use a short word for lovin' | Se habla PGP: Reply with the subject and dad you wind up doin' time." | 'send pgp-key' for my public key. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Sean Roach Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:40:07 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701280440.UAA17424@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 02:04 PM 1/27/97 -0800, Sandy Sandfort wrote: ... >Eric, would like to require a deposit ($20 was the example he >gave) from subscriber/posters. Non-subscribers would not be >allowed to post. Subscribers who voluntarily left the list, >would get their deposit back. Subscribers who flamed twice >(every dog gets one bite) would be kicked off the list and their >deposit would be forfeited (or perhaps turned over to the flame >victim). I know that this wasn't your idea, and am not critisizing you. This idea would be great if everyone had an equal access to funds. Persons willing to part with funds could flame people indiscriminately. Persons with more money, meaning no bills or very few in relation to capitol, would be more willing to part with funds. Suddendly, the rich control the press again, at least to the extent that they would be able to say anything. The rich would be more equal. The plan could be hacked. With several accounts, perhaps stolen, forged, etc. a person submits the $20, flames h[is/er] victim, unsubscribes, collects h[is/er] deposit, resubscribes under a new name, and repeats the cycle. Plus, as has been said before, the definition of a flame is subjective. It has been shown that children with more symettrical faces get along better with teachers. It has been shown that even uncorrupted babies know what physical beauty is. If there is any ability to pre-judge a persons character before reading the post, than the post is more likely to be judged accordingly. I hope that you will be fair in your determinations, and I assume that you will do your best. But I still worry, only because that you are human. And humans make mistakes. At least the current moderation doesn't cost any one twenty bucks. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:32:04 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701280332.TAA15446@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain blanc writes: > From: jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis') > > Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to > prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see > any recognition of this fact. > ........................................................ > > 1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption? Assassination politics is certainlyhighly crypto-relevant (being an important application of anonymity and untraceable payments). It's of interest to a number of participants in the forum. So, why not? > 2) Why do you suppose the Iraqis haven't already thought of doing this > themselves? Perhaps because they love Saddam, who really is a great guy. Stop listening to what U.S.gubmint and media tell you and use your brain. What did Saddam do to _you? > 3) The Mafia uses this method all the time - why then haven't they achieved > a more rational society among themselves? The Mafia in the U.S. doesn't work. The sicilian Mafia is very successful at assassinating any public officials that fucks with it. > 4) Weren't governments (like the U.S.) instituted to prevent this sort of > thing (even if they don't work out as expected)? i.e., there were systems > of courts and lawyers and such instituted to openly deal with "criminal" > activity so that a) people could receive assistance against low-life > degenerate killers, and b) it could be proven that the accused were indeed > deserving of punishment. When I was taking political science at Columbia, one of my most memorable insights came from reading Aeschil's tragedies. Consider this recurrent thread: why are people rude on highways, and is shooting them justified? I claim that if a driver felt that the likelihood of him getting a ticket for cutting people off was high enough, they wouldn't do it. But of course the cops are busy chasing the drug dealers :-), so the only remaining deterrent is the likelihood that someone will shoot you for cutting them off (which happens occasionally). > Humans being what they are, this hasn't worked like it's supposed to, but > the point is that there is a reason why such ideas for systems of justice > were introduced in the first place. That reason, as I eloquently read in > a book, was "So That Reason May Live". That is, so that people who choose > to live in a "society" may do so by the method of solving problems through > the application of intelligence, rather than merely knocking each other off > because a voting majority decides they don't like someone. Re-read your Hobbes - but don't believe him. The state did not come about because the people thought they'd be better off under it. The state came about as one tribe conquered and enslaved another tribe; and gradually most members of the winning tribe became slaves too. > Destructive people often ascend to positions of power not simply because > they are ruthless, but because they have 1) many sycophantic followers and > 2) many ignorant, vulnerable people unable to prevent it. You might be > able to kill off one Saddam, but potentially many others would be waiting > in the wings to take his place. The situation surrounding the existence > of someone like Saddam is part of the contributing factors which keeps him > there, not simply that one man himself. It was the same with Hitler and > with so many others - they don't just have an excess of "power" > concentrated within themselves which puts them in positions of control over > others - there will have been many people who will have helped put them > there, expecting to derive benefits from it. I don't like your Saddam example, having much admiration for the man, but again this goes back to the perceived likelihood of future assassination. If Saddam is killed in an unlikely event, he will be succeeded by someone who does not fear assassination. If all potential successors are convinced that the rubout can be repeated, they won't go for the job. Remember, the purpose of "terrorism" is not just to kill someone, but to "terrorize". > And what will be done about all those people who made this "power" > possible? You don't just kill the one man and be done with it - you have > to also "kill" the conditions which maintained him. You rub out enough key people and terrorize their potential successors into not wanting to take over their jobs, and the system collapses. --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Robert Hettinga Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:39:04 -0800 (PST) To: blanc Subject: RE: Internet, Countries, Nationalism, etc. Message-ID: <199701280439.UAA17377@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 7:39 pm -0500 1/26/97, blanc wrote: >p.s. I be femme ^^^^^^^^^^ Franconics... Cheers, Bob Hettinga ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/ FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/ "If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97" From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:28:31 -0800 (PST) To: Lou Poppler Subject: Re: Moderated list is missing headers Message-ID: <199701280328.TAA15369@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Lou Poppler wrote: > > The arguments about imaginary quotes and libel are harder to untangle > because the moderation process seems to consume the mail headers showing > the messages' travels before reaching toad.com. I suggest that these > headers are signal not noise, and should be propagated if at all possible. > We have had problems in the past with forgeries, and should retain this > basic tool for evaluating a message's source. The header information, on all of the lists, has been changed in order to make it more difficult for list members to keep track of what is going on behind the Electromagnetic Curtain. A simple example is the fact that, originally, a quick glance at the header was sufficient to recognize which messages were sorted to the flames list and were sent out by toad.com from this list. This has since been changed to make the process of censorship more obtuse. Your complaint about it being difficult to 'untangle' certain message threads seems to stem from the fact that you have chosen to receive only a cypher-world-view that has been censored before you receive it. The purpose behind censorship on the list is for the censoring party to be able to spoon-feed you only what they deem fit for you to read. Given the haphazard methods with which the censorship is being instituted, it is not in the best interest of the censors to make it easy for the list members to track the course of the various postings. Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM" Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:25:55 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: RE: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701280325.TAA15281@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Blanc Weber writes: > From: Sandy Sandfort > > (By the way, if you don't like moderation, you would hate Eric Hughes' > favored solution.) > ............................................... > > What was that? Eric Hughes struck me as being smarter than Gilmore, so I too would like to know what his "favored solution" was. Didn't I have dinner with him once? --- Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM Brighton Beach Boardwalk BBS, Forest Hills, N.Y.: +1-718-261-2013, 14.4Kbps From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:26:34 -0800 (PST) To: Sandy Sandfort Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701280326.TAA15334@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Sandy Sandfort wrote: > Apparently, Toto does not know very much about John or me or our > relationships with the "Establishment." Unfortunately, I know a little 'too much' about you and John and your relationships with the Establishment. But as long as I don't think about it at the dinner table, it doesn't affect my appetite. > I can't speak for John, but You do so all of the time. It seems, rather, that John cannot speak for himself (or is too embarrassed to do so). > I think both of these groups are intellectually dishonest in the > extreme when it comes to telling others how this list should be > run. No, Sandy, it is yourself and John who are 'telling' others how this list 'will' be run. You seem to be projecting your own motivations upon anyone who 'expresses' any unflattering opinion of the the censorship process you have instituted. > Of course squating and claim jumping appeal to the lazy a lot > more than homesteading. It must be nice, Sandy, having the power and control over the list that enables you to fling insults at others and then direct them to others only at your own whim and discretion. I guess that it is every list-dictator's dream to have the power to send a big FUCK YOU to one portion of the list, and send a portrait of themself as Mother Teresa to another portion of the list. Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Phil Karn Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:09:42 -0800 (PST) To: shamrock@netcom.com Subject: Re: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7 Message-ID: <199701282109.NAA01904@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >If past cryptographic software is any indication, the DES Cracker >will be available from an overseas ftp site within hours of release in >the US. And lacking that, the author can always print it out on paper and physically mail it out of the country; this is specifically allowed by the new Commerce rules as I understand them. And who's to say that the overseas FTP copies weren't scanned from such a paper copy? :-) Phil From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:42:48 -0800 (PST) To: Kevin L Prigge Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701280342.TAA15696@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Kevin L Prigge wrote: >. The purpose of this list was > and should be discussion of cryptography and related issues. Your view seems to be contradictory to that of Sandy. Sandy has stated that s/he does not censor the list according to crypto- relevancy. Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Ciro Maria Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:11:05 -0800 (PST) To: SpyKing Subject: Re: Best Computer School? Message-ID: <199701280311.TAA14925@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, SpyKing wrote: > This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a teenage > son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer science in > college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's leaning toward MIT. > Any suggestions from list members as to colleges to investigate? > > > Yeah Stevens Institute in Hoboken. Its pretty good I got there. Also Caltech is good, I don't really know which else. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Remo Pini Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 13:40:01 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: 4th ACM Conference on Computer and Communications Security Message-ID: <199701272140.NAA06263@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Anyone going there? It's right next doors - at least next to mine :) Remo Pini From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Rick Osborne Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:52:35 -0800 (PST) To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: OTP security Message-ID: <199701280352.TAA15979@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Paul replied: >Depends on how that 16th bit is related to the other bits and whether >these predictable bits give any information about the other bits on >the disk. Yes, I had figured that if the bits depended on eachother, then it would blow the whole system. [Yet another case of my fingers lagging behind my brain.] What I was thinking was more along the lines of something like: 1.You've got 16 hardware devices that each generate random noise. 2.One of the devices fails (or is sabotaged) and emits a predictable stream (10101...) 3.The other 15 devices are just fine, and the stream generated by one device does not effect the stream of another. 4.You do not know of the (failure/sabotage) until *after* you've generated your encyrted documents and they are out of your hands. So the revamped question is: How secure are those documents now? _________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________ Good evening... as a duly appointed representative of the city, county and state of New York, I order you to cease any and all supernatural activity and return forthwith to your place or origin, or to the nearest convenient parallel dimension. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:12:09 -0800 (PST) To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) Message-ID: <199701282212.OAA04686@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Jim Choate wrote in article <5c5891$ah@life.ai.mit.edu>... > > Singapore and China are blocking certain net groups. I think > > this is a bad thing, question is how can we stop it? > > 'We' shouldn't, it is their own country and it is up to their populace to > stop it. Do you really want Singapore or China having a say in how we run > our web? I certainly don't, and won't support any move to force any > particular view on them. If Billy-Bob wants to shoot himself in the foot, > let him. Might be purty funny to watch. I don't agree with your view of states. The inhabitants of a geographical area are not mere chattels of the governing power. The right to rule rests on certain criteria which I believe neither country meets. The harassment of opposition politicians in obviously trumped up charges disqualifies any country from calling itself a democracy. > > The Web was conceived as offering despots and dictators a choice > > between remaining in the dark ages and allowing freedom of > > speech. Blocking and filtering schemes threaten this ideal. > > Bull, the web was conceived so physicist and other researchers could share > data in a easily digestible format. That was not all. We had a political Web site established during the '92 election. I was in contact with Clinton's people when we had fewer than 100 Web sites. I am a cyber-revolutionary and the world has bought into the chaos of our revolution. I never intended the Web to be a tool for confirming the present social order which is manifestly corrupt. Phill From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:11:26 -0800 (PST) To: "'jimbell@pacifier.com> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701282211.OAA04598@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain jim bell wrote in article <5ch9f2$cuu@life.ai.mit.edu>... > Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to > prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see > any recognition of this fact. Thats because its a whacko solution that has no credibility or consistency. If anyone tried to set up such a market and a price went out on any of the heads of state fantasized about Mr Bell would be dead as a doornail in a week. Phill From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:55:21 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701280355.TAA16061@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dale Thorn wrote in article <5ch8v4$co9@life.ai.mit.edu>... > blanc wrote: > > From: Dr.Dimitri Vulis > > However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba should > > not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders their > > civilians > > in retaliation for something their governments supposedly did. > > > The U.S.G. has many more resources than most of us to do these things, > > including equipment, cooperative troops, money, and recognition from other > > governments. If other nations disagree with the U.S.G. they have the > > resources to discuss, bargain, negotiate, criticize, form alliances, take > > their chances and retaliate, etc. > > I wish this were true, at least of nations which would be friendly > to someone like me (white, Western, etc.). A bully on a school > playground can always be knocked down, no matter how big or how > vicious he is. Sadly, the U.S. bully cannot be knocked down. Bad > enough you get nuclear, chemical, and/or biological stuff waved at > you - if you get into a hot war like Desert Storm, your country is > carpet-bombed with fleets of B-52's until it is thoroughly debilitated. Actually the US is being remarkably ineffective in keeping Cuba etc off the Net. If you don't believe me just try the cuban home page. We had a Web server running in Sarajevo during the siege back in '93. There is no way that the US govt. can hope to control the Internet any more than it can control the phone system. What is astonishing is that the Cuban authorities are so keen to import a technology that breaks down their propaganda. The Cold War was not won by the arms race, it was won in Eastern Europe which was never a major participant. The main instrument that won it was West German TV which broadcast pictures of supermarkets with full shelves into the homes of East Germans every night. The viewers could see that it was not mere propaganda and their relatives confirmed the fact. As a result the East German guards on the Berlin wall simply decided to leave their posts one night. The East Germans couldn't stop the TV signals either. When Dresden started to become a ghost town because people wanted to move to a town which could recieve the broadcasts the East Germans ended up installing their own relay to keep the locals happy. Phill From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:11:41 -0800 (PST) To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com> Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) Message-ID: <199701282211.OAA04637@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Asgaard wrote in article <5c92bo$lo9@life.ai.mit.edu>... > On Wed, 22 Jan 1997, Jim Choate wrote: > > >The Web does not equal the Internet, straw man argument. > Actually at CERN we considered the Web to be a superset of the Internet protocols and others such as DECNET which ran on private networks such as our HEPNET. Since most of those private networks are now obsolete I would consider Web==Internet to be a reasonable equivalence. We always considered email and news to be part of the Web (news:, mailto:). The narrow view that the Web was only HTTP and HTML was a piece of Andressen propaganda. Phill From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Robert Hettinga Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:54:34 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: <>(January 27, 1997) Affirmative Anonymity Message-ID: <199701280354.TAA16021@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain --- begin forwarded text To: DAILY DOSE From: VitaminB Date: 27 Jan 97 15:44:12 Subject: <>(January 27, 1997) Affirmative Anonymity Mime-Version: 1.0 Vitamin B: Your Daily Dose of Bionomics January 27, 1997 Affirmative Anonymity In response to the January 24th Vitamin B ("Anonymity and Reputation"), Greg Waddell, Policy Coordinator for U.S. Senator Connie Mack (R-FL) and 1996 Bionomics Conference Speaker, made the following comments, which we'd like to share. "There are aspects of the anonymity paradigm that relate to a whole host of social issues that Machine Age liberals usually seek to remedy with strong and heavy hand of government. Namely, these are issues of discrimination by race, gender, disability, etc. etc. After the Joint Economic Committee's hearing on the 21st Century Economy, held in summer of 1995, I suddenly realized (better late than never!) that communicating via computer over the Internet forces each of us to deal with others without regard to physical attributes. Neither color, race, gender, disability, religion, nationality, nor any "class" markers are apparent over the Net. The Information Age economy, if left to evolve freely, could bring us closer to our American ideals of equality for all than any law, affirmative action program, diversity training, or anything else. I think that is the most compelling aspect of what we identify as the anonymity of the Net." --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/ FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/ "If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97" From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:14:09 -0800 (PST) To: "Cypherpunks (E-mail)" Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) Message-ID: <199701282214.OAA04788@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Jim Choate wrote in article <5cg99p$7a@life.ai.mit.edu>... > The part of it that comes out of their pocketbook does. Just like the part of > 'the net' that I pay for belongs to me. The net is a bunch of computers, > running software, hooked together over cables and other links. Each and > EVERY ONE of these require installation, upkeep, repair, and utility > support. This costs money. He who pays the money owns the net, everybody > else is along for the ride. The network is largely an intellectual creation. The hardware is relatively unimportant, it can always be replaced. > If we take your argument to its logical conclusion then once a box goes on > the net it belongs to nobody/everybody. Clearly utter nonsense. If you start from such a state and property centered ideology perhaps. I'm a philosophical anarchist and I don't consider the state to have "rights" over its "subjects", nor do I believe in the pure ideology of property you do. Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the controllers of China literally so since they stole most of their "property" from the previous rulers. I believe that the relationship between a state and individual is a much more complex one than the slavish subjection model you propose. In this I am in agreement with practically every philosopher since Locke. It is true that there is the convenience of the state as agency but the question is on whose behalf that agency is exercised. I see no reason why I should not meddle in the affairs of states I'm not a 'subject" of. > If you really and truly believe that the net belongs to everyone and nobody > has a right to limit or otherwise control the hardware and software along > with the associated comm links they own and pay for then you obviously don't > understand what is going on. They are allowed to connect their machinery to the Internet so long as they are prepared to accept the Internet's ethic. They are not allowed to have a free ride, to demand a valuable connection facility on their own terms. > ps I also support France's current attempt at forcing the Georgia university > web site on French soil to use French. As a citizen of Europe I disagree. I believe that the narrow and parochial attitude of the French province breaches undertakings in the Treaty of Rome and under the European declaration of human rights. France is not a sovereign state and does not have the right to pass laws that infringe on the rights granted to European citizens as a whole. Phill From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Daniel Harter Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:52:37 -0800 (PST) To: Dale Thorn Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list (fwd) Message-ID: <199701280352.TAA15983@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote: > Actually, it is a certifiable fact that the list subscribers can > jump to the unmoderated list whenever they want to. It is also a > certifiable fact that they (97% or so) have *not* done so. Has anyone compiled a summary of the difference of volume of posts to the lists? I'd be interested to find out. > Because of these facts, I must conclude that either: > > 1. The subscribers have spoken by staying put, or, > 2. The subscribers are so lazy and unaware of what's going on that > they've just left things as is. > > Now, in my opinion, we've come to this: Some people here will hold > the optimistic view of the bulk of the subscribers, and others will > hold the pessimistic view (the bulk will presumably be in-between). I just started subscribing to the list near the time it started, so I have not noticed a difference. If the unmoderated list is not much more (~10%) I think I'd prefer the unmoderated list. Regards, Dan Harter dharter@harter.pg.md.us From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Alan Olsen Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:10:39 -0800 (PST) To: Rob Subject: Re: PGPmail for Windows, Version 4.5 Message-ID: <199701280710.XAA22100@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- At 07:39 PM 1/27/97 GMT, Rob wrote: >I'm surprised the didn't mention Pegasus Mail, which is an amazing "hot" >mailer, with a sort-of built-in crypto plug-in capability... it's also free. I would like to see PGPMail support Pegusus Mail for the reason that I have used the crypto plug-in for Pegusus and found it inadiquate for general usage. Pegusus's current crypto hooks do not deal well with remailers and multiple keys. PGPMail does not deal with remailers as well as I would like, but it is far easier to use than the Pegusus solution. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 4.5 iQEVAwUBMu2e++QCP3v30CeZAQG33wf9GL2yZodjFYsSPTsfO+zgmi+UtzGWKCJe OBcdIRxw+eRIS+wzVE39QYiWNsNHx9hijRtyXnVkdPNUWOoAZMTtJ5ndbFl+TtCQ PNicvtitryrPc4VrD+VOr/uZ98Yyf1YEQXxs8+CAocJ4uujerC2bsSaG2xtqtBKZ 8fS64D0P9MklNuGWS4/RYsJsnNtdJP7I7L7G+WFd8L1PAzvlrgq3ClJ+zuBBGrQf A/tz9YTIck0anRBifOKCUlRAtpTe0tElCvJKv7QPxLgHAJxM+rg1GHj35SY6QlKs b3cUpjxWolL5c4WvZcyOYRf9CPp2Gr5D2XMgIrydmgQYQStP/8Orhw== =79pa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --- | If you're not part of the solution, You're part of the precipitate. | |"The moral PGP Diffie taught Zimmermann unites all| Disclaimer: | | mankind free in one-key-steganography-privacy!" | Ignore the man | |`finger -l alano@teleport.com` for PGP 2.6.2 key | behind the keyboard.| | http://www.ctrl-alt-del.com/~alan/ |alan@ctrl-alt-del.com| From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: jim bell Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:10:54 -0800 (PST) To: blanc MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 10:21 PM 1/26/97 -0800, blanc wrote: >From: jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis') >Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to >prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see >any recognition of this fact. >........................................................ > >1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption? Because it's on-topic, that's why. Because it's not merely a list concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of using encryption. If we were satisfied to protect ourselves from, say, 99.999% of the ordinary population of this country who might want to read our messages, we'd all be satisfied with DES and we'd be happy with GAK. But the fact is, most of us recognize that the REAL reason for good encryption is to keep our messages away from a tyrannical government with far more assets than individuals or small organizations. >2) Why do you suppose the Iraqis haven't already thought of doing this >themselves? You need to be a little more specific about who you are referring to when you say "the Iraquis." Presumably, you aren't referring to the "Iraqui on the street"? Perhaps you're talking about the politicians and government officials there, right? Well, if that's the case then the answer should be obvious. AP is, fundamentally, a system that will take down all governments everywhere after it starts up anywhere. The leadership of Iraq may be the leaders of a third-rate, third-world country, but as comedian Mel Brooks said in the movie, "History of the World, Part I," "It's good to be the king!" And it is. These official-types have far more in common with the leadership of the other countries than they do with their own citizens. If anything, they're probably actually even MORE rewarded by their position than the leadership of westernized countries. After all, Clinton makes about $250K per year and it's pretty risky for him to receive direct bribes. Kick him out and he only loses a cushy job with lots of prestige. Saddam Hussein and his family, on the other hand, probably was able to rake in hundreds of millions of dollars a year in baksheesh. What makes you think that the leadership of Iraq would want to craft a weapon (AP) which is guaranteed to drop them to the level of their citizenry, or maybe even get themselves killed? As for why the ordinary Iraquis didn't think of it... Or the ordinary people of any or every country, as well. Why didn't THEY think of it? Maybe this is just another case of "not invented here" syndrome: You're pissed off that you didn't think of it, and I did. Sorry, can't help that. >3) The Mafia uses this method all the time - why then haven't they achieved >a more rational society among themselves? That's just it! The Mafia DOESN'T use AP or anything like it. (Admittedly I can't really claim personal knowledge of the operation of the Mafia, you understand...!) In fact, apparently, they function diametrically opposed to the AP system. A complete AP-like system is structured (via encryption, etc) to totally avoid anybody having to trust anyone else. Each participant is kept honest mathematically. Nobody can inform on anyone else, because nobody knows anyone else's identity. In fact, a fully-implemented AP-type system not merely hides the identities of the participants from each other, but it also hides the existence of crimes committed by any of the other participants (if any) from each other. A donor to the AP system, for instance, can't know for sure that his donation money was paid to a person who killed a target. At most, he knows that the money was paid to somebody who, he's satisfied, had enough confidence that the death would occur on a particular date in the future to, in effect, bet money on the outcome. And AP allows anyone to participate in the system, regardless of whether he's trusted by the others. On the contrary, the Mafia, or at least what I've managed to pick up from decades of melodramatic movies and newspaper and magazine articles, depends intimately on people trusting each other. That's why it's so devastating to them when one of their own (Joseph Valachi, for instance) turns on them and rats. To be sure, that trust is backed up by threat of death for turncoats, which is why such defections are rare, but they do indeed occur. Also, AP (quite unlike the Mafia) encourages literally anyone to do jobs for it. The Mafia, quite the contrary, must trust people, so I assume they won't farm out their work to just anyone. (I should point out that your clear misinterpretation of AP, claiming that it is the way the Mafia does things, is just another example of such confusion among critics of AP. I attribute this to such a burning desire to discredit AP that you'll use practically any argument, however specious, to "prove" it to be incorrect or unworkable. You're not alone.) >4) Weren't governments (like the U.S.) instituted to prevent this sort of >thing (even if they don't work out as expected)? i.e., there were systems >of courts and lawyers and such instituted to openly deal with "criminal" >activity so that a) people could receive assistance against low-life >degenerate killers, and b) it could be proven that the accused were indeed >deserving of punishment. Remember "power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely"? The problem with all existing political systems (and particularly those fallen ones from the past) is that they put power in the hands of people who subsequently abuse it, destroying the checks and balances that were put in place. >Humans being what they are, this hasn't worked like it's supposed to, but >the point is that there is a reason why such ideas for systems of justice >were introduced in the first place. That reason, as I eloquently read in >a book, was "So That Reason May Live". That is, so that people who choose >to live in a "society" may do so by the method of solving problems through >the application of intelligence, rather than merely knocking each other off >because a voting majority decides they don't like someone. You misunderstand AP, yet again. AP doesn't really take votes, it merely totals donations. It is an essential element of the AP system that even a tiny minority should be able to kill individuals who are seen as threats, as long as this capability is universal. True, the smaller the minority the more uneconomical such an action would be for them, but it would be well within the ability of 1% of the population to avoid a another Holocaust by getting rid of those pushing for it. In the current political system, in the US for instance, 51% of the population is able to screw the remaining 49%, just as long as they can maintain the majority. Or, perhaps even more accurately and ominously, a tiny fraction of the population (the current leadership class) is able to screw the 49%, as long as they have the un-thinking backing of the remaining and relatively uninvolved 51%. AP disables this system. AP turns government into the moral equivalent of a pick-up football game: Nobody is being forced to play, and everybody and anybody can simply "get up and leave" whenever he wants to. The moment the "rules of the game" to make an individual's continued participation unsatisfying, he can leave. >Destructive people often ascend to positions of power not simply because >they are ruthless, but because they have 1) many sycophantic followers and >2) many ignorant, vulnerable people unable to prevent it. You might be >able to kill off one Saddam, but potentially many others would be waiting >in the wings to take his place. I don't think so. Let's suppose you could purchase the death of Saddam for $5 million. The next guy gets killed for another $5 million, and then the next, etc. Who would want to be the next leader? While $5 million dollars is certainly not pocket change for an individual, it is well within the capacity of the entire world to fund without any difficulty. Anybody considering taking over Saddam's job, aware of such an easy system to kill him, would have no motivation to piss off the world. Sooner or later, Saddam's place would have to be taken by a person who makes it absolutely clear to the rest of the world that he's no Saddam. In fact, he'll point out that he would be foolish to take the job if he had ulterior motives. Unless you believe that it's physically impossible for Iraq to have an honest government (at which point you're displaying what I believe was called jingoism?) you'll acknowledge that their system would be fixed rapidly. That's why AP will be so economical: The absolute certainty that enough money could be raised to get rid of anyone who poses a threat will make it simply unnecessary to do so, the vast majority of the time. It's called "deterrence," and is one of the reasons that 99.99% of the population doesn't rob banks, commit mass murder, or do any other anti-social things. Dictatorships will be impossible under AP because dictators simply won't be able to survive. By being ready at all times to pay to have a dictator killed, society will never have any dictators. Strange but true. >The situation surrounding the existence >of someone like Saddam is part of the contributing factors which keeps him >there, not simply that one man himself. Saddam is still in power because as long as the collective leadership of the countries of the world fear to set an example that will cost them their jobs and possibly their lives, they will gladly choose the $60 BILLION dollar "solution" to the Iraq problem, as opposed to my solution, AP, which would not only fix Iraq but every other country on the face of the globe. That's why the leadership will never choose it. The fact is, George Bush and his cronies kept Saddam in power by intentional acts, although he would never admit it. It was the same with Hitler and >with so many others - they don't just have an excess of "power" >concentrated within themselves which puts them in positions of control over >others - there will have been many people who will have helped put them >there, expecting to derive benefits from it. > >And what will be done about all those people who made this "power" >possible? You don't just kill the one man and be done with it - you have >to also "kill" the conditions which maintained him. >Blanc I assert AP does this quite well. AP makes it quite impossible to maintain a government which pisses off even a small fraction of the population. Anyone who feels abused in the citizen/government relationship will be able to opt out when he wants. "Abused", by my definition, is getting less benefit out of the arrangement than that person wants in relation to the assets he put in. "Governments" may still exist after AP, but in name only. They will not have the ability to force taxation, and they will primarily be a way to coordinate volunteer action, and will be dramatically shrunk from today's behemoths. Such a government can't be corrupted: To whatever extent that corruption makes that government a less-attractive as a project to an honest citizen, he will leave it and it will shrink, making it even less able to support that corruption. Jim Bell jimbell@pacifier.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Robert Rothenburg 'Walking-Owl'" Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:40:46 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Infinite Improbability Drive? Message-ID: <199701280440.UAA17453@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Am I reading this correctly, or will the 'infinite improbability drive' be invented real soon now? (An odd coincidence after the Tesla thread too...) --Rob > Edupage, 26 January 1997. Edupage, a summary of news about information > technology, is provided three times a week as a service by Educom, > a Washington, D.C.-based consortium of leading colleges and universities > seeking to transform education through the use of information technology. [..] > COMPUTER IN A COFFEE CUP > While a conventional computer stores its bits of information by assuming one > of two possible states (a 1 or a 0), a quantum computer theoretically could > store much more information by using all the potential states of anatom. > Scientists are now proposing a new way to harness the power of quantum > computing, using nuclear magnetic resonance devices to control the movement > of millions of atoms within an evenly heated volume of material. By > coordinating the nuclear spin of the particles, physicists could make them > act collectively as qubits (quantum bits). A liquid with the rightthermal > properties (such as coffee, which is known for its unusually evenheating > characteristics) could hold up to 10 qubits, but scientists are still > looking for ways to create a liquid computer that could hold up to 40 qubits > -- perhaps out of "a really expensive cup of structured coffee," says a > University of California, Santa Barbara researcher. (Science News 18 Jan 97 > p37) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:57:10 -0800 (PST) To: ichudov@algebra.com Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701282157.NAA04082@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > > The exercise reveals to me that only by ignoring the first paragraph > > of your example, the part that reads "Imagine if you will a list, > > the original purpose of which was to act as a free and open forum > > for discussion of cryptography and related issues." can you make > > a claim of content based censorship. The purpose of this list was Maybe this was misleading, that was indeed a purpose of the list but it was also supposed to be a free and anarchic list where people were not prevented from posting whatever they want. Even if it were the case that we accepted content based censorship that is no defence of the obvious class system that is in place whereby certain posters are automatically sent straight to the moderated list and others are censored regardless of the content of their posts. Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey" From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:06:28 -0800 (PST) To: Sandy Sandfort Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701282106.NAA01621@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > > ...That was the intended direction of the list, it > > has rapidly disentigrated over recent months into a censored list > > where the elite post to the main list and anyone else is nearly > > always relegated to a seperate list for the crypto-untermenshcen. > > Again, nonsense. The moderation experiment (moderation, not > censorship) has been in effect for all of ONE WEEK. Where does > Paul get this hysterical "recent months" stuff? The list has been disentigrating for some time since the disgusting incident when Dimitri was forcibly unsubscribed from the list. There have also been a number of postings from members of the list claiming to understand anarchism who support censorship to "protect new members of the list". > > If you want to talk about intellectual dishonesty try the following: > > > > Imagine if you will a list, the original purpose of which was > > to act as a free and open forum for discussion of cryptography and > > related issues... > > Paul's argument is the essence of literal conservativism, "but > I don't things to change!" Without change, though, there can be > no progress. Moderation is a one-month experiment. There is no > intellectual dishonesty in saying, "let's try something else for > a while." So, there would be no intellectual dishonesty in a country claiming to be a free and open society "trying out" fascism for a month or two? - After all it`s a private country just as this is a private list.... > > Now imagine that list falling into a state of content based > > censorship and censorship based on an unspoken but ever present > > class structure,... > > "Unspoken but ever present class structure"? I wonder how Paul > was able to divine this? Certainly it is unspoken, but that, of > course, it because it does not exist anywhere but in Paul's > fertile imagination. There is a clear trend easily observable on the list whereby certain members postings are censored when their content is of a standard that, if the moderation were objective and based on content alone, would warrant their being sent to the censored list. If anyone here archives all of the list postings or is willing to retrieve them from the archive we can run some statistical tests and comparisons in a few weeks once the sample is large enough, however, the list oberfuhrer and leutenant von Sandfort will claim the statistical correlation between poster reputation among the upper class of list members and the number of their posts let onto the moderated list is caused by persistent flamers so this will not convince them.. > > It is a foregone conclusion that the upper class of list members will > > have no dispute over the censorship and therefore the change will be > > permenant,... > > Great! I thought that hadn't been determined yet. What a > relief. I think you`ll find your poor attempt at making light of the situation does little to hide the fact that this censorship has finally confirmed that this is a private list and is no longer meant to be a free, anarchic discussion forum. I can tell you one other thing for sure, even if the moderation "experiment" were to end in a month as a last ditch attempt by John Gilmore and Sandy Sandfort to recover some of their lost credibility it would be a vain and entirely unsuccesful attempt. Datacomms Technologies web authoring and data security Paul Bradley, Paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Paul@crypto.uk.eu.org, Paul@cryptography.uk.eu.org Http://www.cryptography.home.ml.org/ Email for PGP public key, ID: 5BBFAEB1 "Don`t forget to mount a scratch monkey" From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:12:20 -0800 (PST) To: Kevin L Prigge Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701280712.XAA22156@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Kevin L Prigge wrote: > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said: > > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship" > "Idiots will make the networks require censorship" The line above this one says it all, doesn't it? If I judge you to be "an idiot", then, if I also have the power to shut you up, I can not only shut off your "noise" from me, but also prevent anyone else from hearing you as well. That's the real beauty of censorship - if I have the power, I can make you a non-person by preventing most people from hearing you at all. Oh, lovely, isn't it? From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:17:53 -0800 (PST) To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701282117.NAA02726@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote: > Dale Thorn wrote in article > > blanc wrote: > > > From: Dr.Dimitri Vulis This [below] is one of the most remarkable posts I've ever seen.... > > > However U.S.G. is able to say that people of Iraq or Lybia or Cuba > > > should not be permitted on the 'net. It also bombs Iraq and murders > > > their civilians in retaliation for something their governments > > > supposedly did. > > > The U.S.G. has many more resources than most of us to do these things, > > > including equipment, cooperative troops, money, and recognition from > > > other governments. If other nations disagree with the U.S.G. they > > > have the resources to discuss, bargain, negotiate, criticize, form > > > alliances, take their chances and retaliate, etc. > > I wish this were true, at least of nations which would be friendly > > to someone like me (white, Western, etc.). A bully on a school > > playground can always be knocked down, no matter how big or how > > vicious he is. Sadly, the U.S. bully cannot be knocked down. Bad > > enough you get nuclear, chemical, and/or biological stuff waved at > > you - if you get into a hot war like Desert Storm, your country is > > carpet-bombed with fleets of B-52's until it is thoroughly debilitated. > Actually the US is being remarkably ineffective in keeping > Cuba etc off the Net. If you don't believe me just try > the cuban home page. We had a Web server running in Sarajevo > during the siege back in '93. There is no way that the US govt. > can hope to control the Internet any more than it can control the > phone system. What is astonishing is that the Cuban authorities are > so keen to import a technology that breaks down their propaganda. This *is* amazing. The cuban govt. is *eager* (keen) to subvert their own propaganda. > The Cold War was not won by the arms race, it was won in > Eastern Europe which was never a major participant. The main > instrument that won it was West German TV which broadcast > pictures of supermarkets with full shelves into the homes > of East Germans every night. The viewers could see that it > was not mere propaganda and their relatives confirmed the > fact. As a result the East German guards on the Berlin wall > simply decided to leave their posts one night. That's it? The system collapsed because the guards left their posts? And no mutiny charges? Incredible. > The East Germans couldn't stop the TV signals either. When > Dresden started to become a ghost town because people wanted > to move to a town which could recieve the broadcasts the > East Germans ended up installing their own relay to keep > the locals happy. People left their own home towns just so they could watch TV? I know a lot of Americans who'd like to leave their towns to get away from TV, permanently. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Robert Hettinga Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:11:08 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Panamsat Offers Internet By Satellite Message-ID: <199701280511.VAA18530@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain --- begin forwarded text Sender: investor@LunaCity.com To: "Space Investors Mailing List" From: Michael_Wallis@sec.sel.sony.com Reply-To: "Space Investors Mailing List" Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 20:00:33 -0800 Organization: LunaCity BBS - (Clan Zen Relay Network) Mountain View, CA Subject: Panamsat Offers Internet By Satellite X-Mailserver: Waffle File Server (WFS), Release 3.2.ag X-Article: 267 >From Space News Daily News Note -- 1/27/97 Panamsat Corp. of Greenwich, Conn. is now offering high-speed Internet access by satellite. The new service, called Spotbytes, is available worldwide to Internet service providers. It provides a quick connection to the Internet by avoiding terrestrial lines and linking companies directly to backbone providers -- companies with a main line to the Internet. Michael ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Wallis, Computer Consultant Work: mwallis@sec.sel.sony.com http: //www.wallis.com/ Home: mwallis@wallis.com --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/ FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/ "If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97" From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:15:57 -0800 (PST) To: Igor Chudov Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701282115.NAA02560@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > Dale Thorn wrote: > > Kevin L Prigge wrote: > > > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said: > > > > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship" > > > "Idiots will make the networks require censorship" > > The line above this one says it all, doesn't it? If I judge you to > > be "an idiot", then, if I also have the power to shut you up, I can > > not only shut off your "noise" from me, but also prevent anyone else > > from hearing you as well. That's the real beauty of censorship - > > if I have the power, I can make you a non-person by preventing most > > people from hearing you at all. Oh, lovely, isn't it? > Don't you like power, Dale? I have a great deal of respect for power. When I was 6, I unwound a coat hanger and put both ends into an electrical outlet. All I remember from that is something like a sledgehammer hitting me, and I went backwards rather quickly. And I never did it again. But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly. As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would suffice to be immediately terminated. The best place to begin, in the USA at least, would be the public freeways. There you have the most acts of aggression in a short space, and the best pickings for liquidation. Give me the power, and I'll show you all those nifty techno-ways of eliminating people that have been kept from the public by our benevolent government ("sources and methods"). BTW, I don't give a damn about someone "cutting me off", since I'm not aggressive enough (outside of my liquidation duties) to be bothered by that in most cases. I'm primarily concerned with vehicles who get too close behind, who pass with no safety margin, etc. I call these people anal-compulsive (as opposed to anal-retentive). You've seen the videos on PBS, the various animal species whose male members perform occasional "mounting" of others to intimidate. There are a large percentage of humans who try to do the same thing, demonstrating that they (IMO) have no further need of their lives. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:16:01 -0800 (PST) To: Greg Broiles Subject: Re: Toto's database Message-ID: <199701282116.NAA02574@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Greg Broiles wrote: > An interesting assertion. Is your database available for others to draw > their own conclusions from? As a matter of fact, it is. It consists of the cypherpunks unedited and flames list. > I'd appreciate seeing at least a first-level abstraction of the data Given the well-developed and ratiionally strong questions you asked in your post, I am afraid that you would find my abstractions of data rather rudimentary, at best. I keep a separate directory of CypherSpam, for my own purposes, and I merely popped the moderation-related criticisms into another directory and made some direct comparisons. I used my computer-brain to draw my conclusions from, which I suppose might raise the issue of personal bias and/or competent technology. (I regard my brain as a Pentium, but there are others who aver that it can more closely be compared to the digital circuitry on their office coffee-machine) > Of course, correlation alone doesn't tell us much. If it really exists, it > suggests that the two phenomena observed are related in some way, but it > doesn't tell us the nature or the cause of the relationship. That is why the world has need of spin-doctors, conspiracy theorists and data-analysts. > Another explanation would be that a moderation opponent is sending the > spams as a way to punish the proponents of moderation. This is an illogical conclusion, since the proponents of moderation receive the censored list, and therefore do not receive the UCE/Spams. On the other hand, the UCE/Spams are passed along to the other lists, despite the fact that not a single member of the list has indicated any desire to receive them. The fact that John and Sandy have shown absolutely no concern for 'protecting' the list members from UCE/Spam until their forced censoring of 'undesirable' list members indicates that the 'punishment' you mention applies only to those who oppose the censorship of list members. > I think this is especially true given the relatively inexact nature of the > "spam" weapon Unfortunately, the 'spam weapon' is an extremely exact science in the hands of those familiar with remailer systems and bots. Also, some of the spams appear to originate from toad.com itself, as opposed to coming from outside sources. Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: ichudov@algebra.com Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 23:25:40 -0800 (PST) To: jim bell Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701280725.XAA22607@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain jim bell wrote: > > At 10:21 PM 1/26/97 -0800, blanc wrote: > >From: jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis') > >Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to > >prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see > >any recognition of this fact. > >........................................................ > > > >1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption? > > Because it's on-topic, that's why. Because it's not merely a list > concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using > encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of > using encryption. Actually AP is one of the more interesting topics here. I think that there is a clear need for an AP bot. Do you feel like writing it? - Igor. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: ichudov@algebra.com Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:17:03 -0800 (PST) To: dthorn@gte.net Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701282117.NAA02665@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dale Thorn wrote: > > Kevin L Prigge wrote: > > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said: > > > > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship" > > > "Idiots will make the networks require censorship" > > The line above this one says it all, doesn't it? If I judge you to > be "an idiot", then, if I also have the power to shut you up, I can > not only shut off your "noise" from me, but also prevent anyone else > from hearing you as well. That's the real beauty of censorship - > if I have the power, I can make you a non-person by preventing most > people from hearing you at all. Oh, lovely, isn't it? > Don't you like power, Dale? - Igor. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Greg Broiles Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:16:22 -0800 (PST) To: Jim Choate Subject: Re: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy Message-ID: <199701282116.NAA02614@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 08:50 PM 2/27/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >I predict that within the next five years these >slander/libel laws will be used by some organization to prosecute defamation >of their Internet presence (eg web page graffitti). Within 10 years this >area will be one of the hotest areas of the new communications law. Civil actions against people doing "graffiti" are only interesting where the defendant has assets worth suing for. This economic dimension substantially limits the number of suits which will be brought. Corporate plaintiffs, if they chose to bring suit, would in many cases prefer to sue in federal court. (Federal juries tend to be more conservative and hence pro-corporate; they're also more likely to be friendly to an out-of-town corporation suing a local individual). To sue in federal court, the plaintiff needs to find a federal question or diversity jurisdiction. Other causes of action (like copyright infringement, trademark dilution, or false designation of origin) would provide a federal question and hence federal jurisdiction. Criminal prosecutions for defamation (in the case of "graffiti") are still unlikely - a much more straightforward charge would be unauthorized access to a computer or some flavor of fraud, depending on the facts. Confusion aids defendants, so I predict prosecutors will avoid defamation law (and its tar pits of actual malice and the defense of truth) when they are able to do so and still have a reasonable chance of conviction. >If they don't >understand the technology (eg forwarding private email to publicly >accessible lists by accident) how in the world are they going to understand >what is best, let along convince anyone else? There's a world of difference between understanding technology and screwing up once in awhile. Perhaps you've never screwed anything up (although your summary of US defamation law ought to count), but the rest of us do, from time to time. Were I involved in computer-related litigation, I'd choose an attorney who could talk to a jury over an attorney who was good with computers, hands down. Not even a question. And I'd pick an attorney who owned up to making mistakes sometimes over someone who imagined him or herself somehow superior to people who fuck up now and then. >It has been proposed by at least one party that a district attorney or other >public prosecutor would not act on such events. This is also naive. I was that "party", and I guess that in trying to be civil I was actually unclear. If you were a politically important person or organization, and if Toto's message had caused you real damage, and if Toto were reasonably available to prosecute, a prosecutor might get interested. But you're not important, Toto would be difficult to extradite, and you weren't harmed. So you picked a crappy example to make your point(s) with. Change the facts, and you'll get a different answer. Duh. >The >ramifications for their political opponents to use this 'insensitive and >clearly self-interested' refusal to act as a perfect example of how that >prosecutor is interested in their own political career and not in the >interest of the people they are charged with protecting as well as a good >demonstration of their technological ignorance. It would be very difficult >to get re-elected in such an environment. Yeah, I'll bet that your local prosecutor's failure to prosecute Toto is going to cost them dearly in the next election. You picked a hypothetical which did a poor job of illustrating the points you're making in this later message. Do you want to talk about whether or not Toto is criminally liable for making fun of you while making a point about ownership of networks and its relationship to freedom of speech, or do you want to talk about the more general case of liability for misattribution? If it's the latter, yes, there are some issues there, but I still think that defamation law is a poor way to address them. You seem to be having an "I've got a hammer, everything looks like a nail" problem. And all of this seems a bit contrived if the real crypto-relevant point is "use digital signatures to avoid misattribution". >All that I ask is that instead of jumping the gun and saying 'it ain't so' >you simply consider the ramifications from 'their' perspective. It truly is >amazing what one can learn by walking a mile in another mans shoes. For if >there is one truth to be learned it is that this discussion is not about how >it is, but rather how it will be and how it should be. Despite your closing, I haven't seen you write anything about "how it should be", beyond the idea that people should learn more about digital signatures. You've forwarded lots of information from other people's web pages about defamation liability in different jurisdictions, but no discussion about why the rules we've got now are good ones (or bad ones). Other commentators have suggested that defamation law is obsolete (Tim May) or should be reconsidered in light of a victim's ability (via the net) to reply to a defamer (Mike Godwin). Do you have a proposal along these lines? Your message suggests to me that you're very pro-plaintiff with respect to defamation (at least when you're the plaintiff), but you haven't explained why other people should adopt your perspective. You did suggest that juries are also likely to think it's in their best interests to find for plaintiffs (because they might find themselves in similar circumstances someday); but it's unclear to me why that reasoning wouldn't make them equally likely to side with defendants (because they might be wrongfully accused of doing something bad), or why your logic wouldn't apply to every case, not just defamation cases. And, for what it's worth, juries aren't supposed to consider "what is in our best interest" either as individuals nor as a community, nor is that a legitimate topic for argument to the jury with respect to questions about liability or guilt. -- Greg Broiles | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell: gbroiles@netbox.com | http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto. | From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Name Withheld by Request Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:31:39 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Reuters article: "Unstoppable Internet will defy controls" Message-ID: <199701280331.TAA15436@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >More broadly, modern governments rely on their ability to control >information and money to maintain control over their citizens. >But does the Net mean we no longer need government in its present form? The German law professor Alexander Rossnagel has published an article titled "Globale Datennetze: Ohnmacht des Staates - Selbstschutz der Buerger" (global networks: state's impotence, citizens' self-protection) in Zeitschrift fuer Rechtspolitik 1997, p. 26 ff. He describes that decentral networks are difficult to control, and anonymizers, encryption and steganography can be used to defy surveillance. "[The state] can neither enforce matters of public interest, nor offer protection to its citizens", including protection of privacy and legally protected secrets. The state cannot effectively face law violations: "If it somewhere suppresses information, it will be 'mirrored' by many other servers world-wide. If it blocks communication lines, the message will find a way around. Sattelite transmission also renders the question of location almost irrelevant. Theresa Orlowski was denied a license for her porn channel here. Now she is broadcasting from Britain. In cyberspace, functions of social relevance, such as protection of minors, can no longer be fulfilled by the state. They are transferred to the parents exclusively." "The state can only interevene where the immaterial world of the network touches the physical world: It can arrest criminals, seize devices and data storage, when these physically are in its control. It can enforce adherance to its laws where it physically can exersize its power. But in the incorporeal world of the network, to a large extend it is powerless. All these examples indicate a new fact: The networks constitute a new incorporeal social space. Increasingly more social contacts, economic and legal exchanges are being transferred to it. In it, conditions are different from in the social relationships of the physical world. In this new world, the state has no means of coercion, no monopoly of power, and no sovereignty." "Law to be enforced requires power. The democratic constitutional state depends on sovereignty and obediency to laws. Only with these it can universally enforce democratic decisions and protect the citizens' basic rights from violations by third parties. To guarantee this is the fundamental reason for the modern state to exist. Its protective mission continues to apply. However, it has expanded with the civilisatoric development. With Hobbes, the focus was on the procetion of life and limb, with Locke the protection of freedom and property were added, and in this century, facing new threats, the protection of privacy. [... The states'] sovereignty is based on the authority to exclusively exercise physical power in [their territory]. This sovereignty has limits in the immaterial space of global networks. But when the citizen no longer receives the state's protection in the special sphere of the networks and the state can no more enforce matters of public interest there, then its basic legitimation in so far is in danger. According to Thomas Hobbes, 'the citizen's obligation to the sovereign can ... only last as long as he is capable of protecting the citizens'." But that would also endanger democracy and the constitional state. Stating that the normative strategy at large is obsolete, the author proposes new solotions: "When the democratic constitutional state can no longer reliably protect its citizens in the new social space of the networks, in compensation it must enable them to protect themselves." Information and communications technology offers various means of protection: * encryption and steganography * digital signatures * untraceable pseudonyms * certified electronic mail * ecash * software agents * connectivity management programs [whatever that is...] * cellular phones without location data * PICS * secure portable user-controlled devices that support these measures "Some of these measures - for example the encryption program PGP - can be used without any advance concession. The state only has to abstain from impeding regulations. Others - such as digital signatures - depend on an infrastructure that allows the individual to use these protective measures. The citizen of information society still depends on infrastructural prerequsites. But there is a fundamental difference in whether the individual can decide about using self-controlled protective measures himself, or the state or an other large organization offers protection that he cannot influence." "In order to protect and preserve the /old/ goals of freedom and self-determination in the /new/ social space of the networks, law must permit and support /new/ technologies." The article ends with the author's vision of a 'civil information society' as a free democratic society where basic rights are guaranteed by technology. "In this information society, the state has a limited, but fundamental role. [...] it creates a framework for the citizens to protect themselves. Thus they are enabled to freely inform themselves, solve conflicts in free self-organization, and negotiate and practice mutual security without depending on a big brother." From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: bs-org@c2.net Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 18:15:07 -0800 (PST) To: "Mullen, Patrick" Subject: Re: Handbook of Applied Cryptography Message-ID: <199701280215.SAA13503@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Can anybody inform me where to get this book in Europa or can anybody buy it in USA and send it to me. I wil post the money immediately plus shipping At 17:10 1997-01-27 -0500, Mullen, Patrick wrote: >(My apologies if someone else has posted this information and I missed >it.) > >_Handbook_of_Applied_Cryptography_, Menezes, Oorschot, Vanstone, > CRC Press, Boca Raton, 1997 > >With a foreword by R.L. Rivest > >Contents in Brief: >Table of Contents v >List of Tables xv >List of Figures xix >Foreword xxi >Preface xxiii > >1 Overview of Cryptography 1 >2 Mathematical Background 49 >3 Number-Theoretic Reverence > Problems 87 >4 Pulic-Key Parameters 133 >5 Pseudorandom Bits and > Sequences 169 >6 Stream Ciphers 191 >7 Block Ciphers 223 >8 Public-Key Encryption 283 >9 Hash Functions and Data > Integrity 321 >10 Identification and Entity > Authentication 385 >11 Digital Signatures 425 >12 Key Establishment > Protocols 489 >13 Key Management Techniques 543 >14 Efficient Implementation 591 >15 Patents and Standards 635 >A Bibliography of Papers from > Selected Cryptographic > Forums 663 > >References 703 >Index 775 > >>From the back cover: > ><< BEGIN QUOTE >> >Cryptography, in particular public-key cryptography, has emerged in the >las 20 years as an important discipline that is not only the subject of >an >enormous amount of research, but provides the foundation for information >security in many applications. Standards are emerging to meet the >demands >for cryptographic protection in most areas of data communications. >Public- >key cryptographic techniques are now in widespread use in industry, >especially in the financial services industry, in the public sector, and >by >individuals for their personal privacy, such as in electronic mail. >This >Handbook will serve as a valuable reference for the novice as well as >for >the expert who needs a wider scope of coverage within the aread of >cryptography. It is a necessary and timely guide for professionals who >practice the art of cryptography. > >The _Handbook_of_Applied_Cryptography_ provides a treatment that >is multifunctional: > >* It serves as an introduction to the more practical aspects of > both conventional and public-key cryptography > >* It is a valuable source of the latest techniques and algorithms > for the serious practitioner > >* It provides an integrated treatment of the field, whil still > presenting each major topic as a self-contained unit > >* It provides a mathematical treatment to accompany > practical discussions > >* It contains enough abstractoin to be a valuable reference for > theoreticians while containing enough detail to actually allow > implementation of the algorithms discussed > >This is the definitive cryptography reference that novice as well as >experienced >developers, designers, researchers, engineers, computer scientists, and >mathematicials alike will find indispensable. ><< END QUOTE >> > >~~ Patrick > > From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: harka@nycmetro.com Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:14:19 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Trigger-Words... Message-ID: <199701282114.NAA02411@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hi there, does anybody know any contact points/Web pages, where I might get some information on e-mail filtering via trigger-words? I am interested in how this technology specifically works and a collection of trigger-words would be nice too :) Thanks in advance... Ciao Harka /*************************************************************/ /* This user supports FREE SPEECH ONLINE ...more info at */ /* and PRIVATE ONLINE COMMUNICATIONS! --> http://www.eff.org */ /* E-mail: harka@nycmetro.com (PGP-encrypted mail preferred) */ /* PGP public key available upon request. [KeyID: 04174301] */ /* F-print: FD E4 F8 6D C1 6A 44 F5 28 9C 40 6E B8 94 78 E8 */ /*<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>*/ /* May there be peace in this world, may all anger dissolve */ /* and may all living beings find the way to happiness... */ /*************************************************************/ -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQEVAgUBMuhpbjltEBIEF0MBAQGiOwf+N61i3Vj1XjmhKLm+qispHDxsu4Wde8nb BtMkVOAt9MGlihKftUAvp7l8aUcr5+D5jFh4/1VllO+QeZ4Yni9kM40xBLry1LYD yiLqpeNMfz2Zf6XMqGaNc8lblx9qyNHyJBHf5p8OfJWN47LcIn8CYkhDSq6b3Sch rHNBg8RjuCKQGD3XlCkwZLrYCUiCPFmSkKeuYpSaPkXgqgf7Zku68RrmqhRzbF1m UneIgxMXqWFetIBHe8PIcQpLrN0X+lRMCnCFVY9x7Rsy4QJc3f8lZ7YKo2xDiGXb Ly+wiA6sexlwwf+BdLDRu3fshI4eCpe7KbfWmzf3z0pdpvdRfUiJuw== =KEb+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- If encryption is outlawed, only outlaws will have encryption... From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:16:20 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: uae_1.html Message-ID: <199701282116.NAA02609@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Reuters New Media [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ] [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard | Entertain | Health ] _________________________________________________________________ Previous Story: UK Bill To Fight Millennium Computer Bug Moves On Next Story: Intel to Europe: Get Online Or Fall Behind _________________________________________________________________ Monday January 27 9:50 AM EST UAE Launches Service To Censor Internet DUBAI - The United Arab Emirates's monopoly Internet provider launched a service Saturday to censor sites in cyberspace that breached local moral values and traditions. Officials from state telecommunications company Etisalat said the new Proxy Service would be compulsory for the UAE's 9,669 subscribers, who will have to configure their web browsers that navigate the net by February 2. "The service was launched today as part of our efforts to improve the Internet service to our subscribers after lengthy study and research," said one official at Etisalat. "We were working on it before some official statements were made on the need to control access to some sites on the service," he told Reuters. The move follows repeated calls to regulate access to the Internet in the conservative Gulf region, where most women are veiled, magazine pictures revealing cleavage or bare legs are blacked out and questioning the existence of god can be punishable by death. Some are worried about the spread of pornography as well as religious and political material through the worldwide network of interlinked computers. Last year, Dubai Police chief Major General Dhahi Khalfan Tamim created a rare public row in the UAE saying the information ministry and the police, rather that Etisalat, should be authorized to issue Internet licenses as it was their job to monitor data coming into the UAE and maintain security. Telecommunications experts say the Proxy Service will not be "fully water-tight," but would help block access to known and unwanted sites -- a list of which could be constantly updated. The proxy server will be pre-fed with Internet addresses where access is blocked off, industry sources said. But the server will be unable to block access if addresses of prohibited sites are changed, as frequently happens. Etisalat says it will disconnect any customer who abused its Internet services and violated "order and clear laws." "Singapore has succeeded to a great extent in its drive to control harm done by the Internet," said another Etisalat official. "Why cannot we?" Singapore government measures to regulate political and religious content on the Internet and keep it free of pornography became effective in July last year. They require all Internet service operators and local content providers to be registered with the Singapore Broadcasting Authority. Copyright, Reuters Ltd. All rights reserved _________________________________________________________________ ________________________ ___________ Help _________________________________________________________________ Previous Story: UK Bill To Fight Millennium Computer Bug Moves On Next Story: Intel to Europe: Get Online Or Fall Behind _________________________________________________________________ [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard | Entertain | Health ] _________________________________________________________________ Reuters Limited Questions or Comments From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:12:22 -0800 (PST) To: aga Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701282212.OAA04711@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain aga wrote: > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote: > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > > Dale Thorn wrote: > > But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I > > had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly. > > As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would > > suffice to be immediately terminated. The best place to begin, in > > the USA at least, would be the public freeways. There you have the > > most acts of aggression in a short space, and the best pickings for > > liquidation. Give me the power, and I'll show you all those nifty > > techno-ways of eliminating people that have been kept from the public > > by our benevolent government ("sources and methods"). > > > > BTW, I don't give a damn about someone "cutting me off", since I'm > > not aggressive enough (outside of my liquidation duties) to be bothered > > by that in most cases. I'm primarily concerned with vehicles who get > > too close behind, who pass with no safety margin, etc. I call these > > people anal-compulsive (as opposed to anal-retentive). You've seen > > the videos on PBS, the various animal species whose male members > > perform occasional "mounting" of others to intimidate. There are a > > large percentage of humans who try to do the same thing, demonstrating > > that they (IMO) have no further need of their lives. > Boy, it is a fucking Bitch living in that L.A. traffic, huh? I heard years ago that approximately 10% of the people on the street are certifiably mentally unstable. Multiply that by two at least for Los Angeles (suburban L.A., actually, Hollywood for example is much safer than Altadena or Westlake Village). Quincy M.D. (the old TV show) did an excellent piece once on how a person can more-or-less legally commit murder with a car, by passing a deliberate act off as an "accident". It's one area of our law enforcement where the law (or rules) as stated by the state and as enforced by the state cops don't even agree. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: OKSAS Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:11:57 -0800 (PST) To: aga Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701282211.OAA04676@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, aga wrote: > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > > Dale Thorn wrote: > > > > > > Kevin L Prigge wrote: > > > > paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk said: > > > > > > > > "cypherpunks will make the networks safe for censorship" > > > > > > > "Idiots will make the networks require censorship" > > > > > > The line above this one says it all, doesn't it? If I judge you to > > > be "an idiot", then, if I also have the power to shut you up, I can > > > not only shut off your "noise" from me, but also prevent anyone else > > > from hearing you as well. That's the real beauty of censorship - > > > if I have the power, I can make you a non-person by preventing most > > > people from hearing you at all. Oh, lovely, isn't it? > > > > > > > Don't you like power, Dale? > > > > - Igor. > > > > Power corrupts, in some instances. Instances where the power is concentratted to one individual or small group of individual.... From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: jbugden@smtplink.alis.ca Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:13:53 -0800 (PST) To: ravage@einstein.ssz.com> Subject: RE: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy Message-ID: <199701282213.OAA04787@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Jim Choate wrote: I have received several private emails inquiring into what possible crypto relevance the recent exchange over libel/slander and the law. It is clear that even in democratic countries like Canada (not know as a freedom of speech protectorate) slander/libel is covered under criminal codes. While it is true that currently these statutes are not heavily used, if at all, this will change as businesses and special interest groups move even further onto electronic networks. Consider the zealous use of the law by the CoS. Ask Julf if the ramifications are not 'real world'. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage@ssz.com Not one to ever let a mention of Canada go unchallenged - even when it is a simple fact or a compliment - I thought I should jump into the discussion. Like the CoS, many companies have threatened libel actions as a means to silence people. The McLibel Two in Britian quickly come to mind. However, also like the Cos, many companies are finding that the net effect of these libel suites are not in their favour even when they win. Some brilliant examples of subversive use of trademarks can be found at the site: http://www.adbusters.org Specific examples: http://www.adbusters.org/Corporate/Greasestick.html http://www.adbusters.org/Gallery/spoofabs.html http://www.adbusters.org/Corporate/Kalvin.html A little clever marketing could go a long way to promoting privacy issues in the public consciousness. Perhaps an NSA Friends and Family calling plan? James From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Sandy Sandfort Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:57:27 -0800 (PST) To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701282157.NAA04110@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Mon, 27 Jan 1997 paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk wrote: > The list has been disentigrating for some time since the disgusting > incident when Dimitri was forcibly unsubscribed from the list. I'm curious about the gratuitous use of the word "forcibly" by Paul. Does this mean Gilmore took a fire axe to the computer or something? Dimitri was unsubscribed. It was done more or less against his will. ("More or less" because he in effect said to John, "bet you can't stop me.") What does "forcibly" add to this discussion besides melodrama? No force was required. John had the right and ability to pull the plug on Dimitri. "No animals were harmed in the making of this film." "Force," my ass. > have also been a number of postings from members of the list claiming > to understand anarchism who support censorship to "protect new > members of the list". There are various definitions of "censorship" and various flavors of anarchism. I'm a market anarchist, Paul is not. Paul claims to believe that any form of moderation is censorship. I think that enforcing standards of decorum on a private, voluntary list are not censorship. Reasonable minds may differ. I acknowledge that Paul's interpretations are not without some justification. (I just think they are incorrect in the instant case.) Paul, on the other hand, seems to be a True Believer. He brooks no view other than his own. (Curiously hypocritical under the circumstrances.) > So, there would be no intellectual dishonesty in a country claiming > to be a free and open society "trying out" fascism for a month or > two? - After all it`s a private country just as this is a private > list.... Paul's sophistry is showing. Nation-states are entities that exercise a monopoly on the use of force (real force, Paul) within (and often without) their boundries. Mail lists are far more like private homes, businesses or clubs. When you are a guest there, you are subject to their rules of behavior. > There is a clear trend easily observable on the list whereby certain > members postings are censored when their content is of a standard > that, if the moderation were objective and based on content alone, > would warrant their being sent to the censored list. Several substantive examples, please. True, nothing Bill Stewart has posted has been sent to CP-Flames. One guess why. Numerous posts by Dimitri have been posted to CP-Moderated, but many more have not made the cut. There are much more obvious reasons for this than Paul's biased analysis. > I can tell you one other thing for sure, even if the moderation > "experiment" were to end in a month as a last ditch attempt by John > Gilmore and Sandy Sandfort to recover some of their lost credibility > it would be a vain and entirely unsuccesful attempt. YMMV. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:12:50 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy (fwd) Message-ID: <199701282212.OAA04749@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Forwarded message: > Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 01:28:19 -0800 > From: Greg Broiles > Subject: Re: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy > > Civil actions against people doing "graffiti" are only interesting where > the defendant has assets worth suing for. This economic dimension > substantially limits the number of suits which will be brought. Thank you for agreeing with my thesis that the legal industry is one driven by monetary gain and not justice. It is the one major problem with law today, it ignores those who are not 'worth it'. Justice is supposed to be blind and until that happens there can be no true liberty. Law should be involved in rights and wrongs and not 'how much money do I need to buy that villa in Spain'. There is also the aspect of 'reputation' of the organization which was defamed. This will become even more critical to good business over the Internet in the future than it is now. Now the only really important 'reputation' that one has to worry about is their credit report. Since it is very unlikely that such records will be made public in the future they won't be available so some other 'reputation' verification process will be required for parties interested in doing business with other parties they have no information on other than an email address or a webpage. This problem became very clear during the Austin Cypherpunks remailer project last year. The goal was to create a economicaly viable keyserver. The problem rapidly became one of trust and reputation and there was and still is no clear cut methodology for dealing with these concepts, let alone actualy trying to quantify them. Another aspect of this that keeps coming up is one of 'big' corporations with 'lots' of money, this monotonicity in legal thought is the reason I refer to the 'legal industry' and not 'legal profession'. Currently the main force driving law is how much money is available. Expansions of liberty simply can't happen in this environment because there is no mechanism to protect 'little' organizations or persons without 'lots' of cash. This problem is one that is not being addressed by anyone, most especialy lawyers who will loose income which they aren't apt to do voluntarily. > Criminal prosecutions for defamation (in the case of "graffiti") are still > unlikely - a much more straightforward charge would be unauthorized access > to a computer or some flavor of fraud, depending on the facts. This would be hard to do in the situation such as a mailing list because the parties would have 'authorized access' and it does not include the issue of inside parties nor 'web bbs's' where parties can enter comments and other statements in a 'authorized' manner. There are mechanisms to use computers for abuse of other parties besides hacking. > Confusion > aids defendants, so I predict prosecutors will avoid defamation law (and > its tar pits of actual malice and the defense of truth) when they are able > to do so and still have a reasonable chance of conviction. > > >If they don't > >understand the technology (eg forwarding private email to publicly > >accessible lists by accident) how in the world are they going to understand > >what is best, let along convince anyone else? > > There's a world of difference between understanding technology and screwing > up once in awhile. Absolutely. However, if there is not a fundamental understanding of the technology and its ramifications I certainly wouldn't want somebody making a case on my behalf because they would make assumptions which were not based in fact. In Toto's case the point I was refering to was not his sending private practice related material to a publicly accessible list (pretty reprehensible for my attorney accident or not) but rather his unsolicited admission that he didn't have any idea how it works. THAT would worry me if my liberty, possessions, or life were on the line. > I was that "party", and I guess that in trying to be civil I was actually > unclear. If you were a politically important person or organization, and if > Toto's message had caused you real damage, and if Toto were reasonably > available to prosecute, a prosecutor might get interested. But you're not > important, Toto would be difficult to extradite, and you weren't harmed. So > you picked a crappy example to make your point(s) with. Change the facts, > and you'll get a different answer. Duh. Actualy it is the PERFECT example of what is wrong with the law, it is the reason that I went to such extremes to force the situation. If the law can't protect Ma. and Pa. Kettle (their poor, being share croppers) under our 'democracy' it shure can't proctect them under a more 'liberalized' democracy which so many want and the technology will force. If the coming technocracy can't (or for monetary reasons won't) then it won't be any different that what we have now. A tyrant is a tyrant, my goal is to get rid of the cage and not to put a new layer of gilt on it. > You picked a hypothetical which did a poor job of illustrating the points > you're making in this later message. Do you want to talk about whether or > not Toto is criminally liable for making fun of you while making a point > about ownership of networks and its relationship to freedom of speech, or > do you want to talk about the more general case of liability for > misattribution? If it's the latter, yes, there are some issues there, but I > still think that defamation law is a poor way to address them. You seem to > be having an "I've got a hammer, everything looks like a nail" problem. The point is not whether Toto did or did not make fun of me, you seem to have a prediliction for personal attacks. It ain't. The point is that if joe-six-pack isn't secure in knowing that his views and expression are not protected from abuse he won't use it. We all loose in that case. > And all of this seems a bit contrived if the real crypto-relevant point is > "use digital signatures to avoid misattribution". You missed the point, keep pondering. I am shure it will come to you. > Despite your closing, I haven't seen you write anything about "how it > should be", Because I don't know how it should be, and it isn't my place or yours to make that decision. It is our responsibility to discuss this issue and to review the various solutions and what they will mean in the long run (as near as we can make the future out that is). In this example, if party A makes a statement and then B changes it and then re-distributes it as original comments by A then there is a problem irrespective of the monetary worth of A or B. Digital signatures in and of themselves won't help this from happening unless it is required to include the full text and signature of any quote in any subsequent use of that material otherwise the quote and the digital signature are out of sync and therefore worthless. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage@ssz.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:12:02 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) Message-ID: <199701282212.OAA04677@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Forwarded message: > From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" > Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) > Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:36:13 -0500 > > I don't agree with your view of states. The inhabitants of a > geographical area are not mere chattels of the governing power. Exactly! By jove you got it! By demanding your liberty but demanding that 'we' go to Singapore or anywhere else and treat them as chattels we have clearly instituted a double-standard. Most parties in this discussion still haven't made that distinction. All we have done is replace their current tyrant with a new one, mainly us. > The right to rule rests on certain criteria which I believe neither > country meets. The harassment of opposition politicians in > obviously trumped up charges disqualifies any country from > calling itself a democracy. Exactly. And by applying pressure on Singapore we only help them keep that tyrany in place. The quickest way I know to make a social institution band together is self-preservation from an outside threat, real or perceived. > I am a cyber-revolutionary and the world has bought into > the chaos of our revolution. I never intended the Web to be a tool > for confirming the present social order which is manifestly > corrupt. ALL social orders are corrupt. The 3 laws of thermodynamics apply to everything including social institutions. 1. You can't get ahead 2. You can't break even 3. You can't quit the game Heinz Pagels (RIP) Jim Choate CyberTects ravage@ssz.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Eric Blossom Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:56:39 -0800 (PST) To: aba@dcs.ex.ac.uk Subject: Re: GSM crypto upgrade? (was Re: Newt's phone calls) Message-ID: <199701282156.NAA04042@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >> It is not clear you need signatures in the secure phone case. Eric >> Blossom's 3DES uses straight DH for key exchange with verbal verification >> that both ends are using the same key. > >How does Eric's box display the negotiated key to the user? (I don't >recall the pair I saw having displays). Latest versions have an LCD display that reports the type of crypto being used (3DES), as well as 24 bits worth of SHA-1 of the public exponentials exchanged. Alice sends g^x mod p, Bob sends g^y mod p. Let m = min(g^x mod p, g^y mod p) and n = max(g^x mod p, g^y mod p). compute v = SHA (concat (OCTET_REP (m), OCTET_REP (n))). Display the high 24 bits of v. >Also I thought it would be kind of cute if there were some way for >phones to exchange their signature keys `face to face' as well. Currently, absent some kind of widely deployed public key infrastructure, there are no signature keys used. This also means that the units do *not* contain any long term secrets, just the session key which is destroyed at the end of the call. Eric From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: aga Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:12:14 -0800 (PST) To: Dale Thorn Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701282212.OAA04695@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote: > aga wrote: > > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote: > > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > > > Dale Thorn wrote: > > > > But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I > > > had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly. > > > As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would > > > suffice to be immediately terminated. No trial, huh? The best place to begin, in > > > the USA at least, would be the public freeways. There you have the > > > most acts of aggression in a short space, and the best pickings for > > > liquidation. Give me the power, and I'll show you all those nifty > > > techno-ways of eliminating people that have been kept from the public > > > by our benevolent government ("sources and methods"). > > > > > > BTW, I don't give a damn about someone "cutting me off", since I'm > > > not aggressive enough (outside of my liquidation duties) to be bothered > > > by that in most cases. I'm primarily concerned with vehicles who get > > > too close behind, who pass with no safety margin, etc. I call these > > > people anal-compulsive (as opposed to anal-retentive). You've seen > > > the videos on PBS, the various animal species whose male members > > > perform occasional "mounting" of others to intimidate. There are a > > > large percentage of humans who try to do the same thing, demonstrating > > > that they (IMO) have no further need of their lives. > > > Boy, it is a fucking Bitch living in that L.A. traffic, huh? > > I heard years ago that approximately 10% of the people on the street > are certifiably mentally unstable. Multiply that by two at least for > Los Angeles (suburban L.A., actually, Hollywood for example is much > safer than Altadena or Westlake Village). > Just carry a gun all of the time when you go over there. > Quincy M.D. (the old TV show) did an excellent piece once on how a > person can more-or-less legally commit murder with a car, by passing > a deliberate act off as an "accident". It's one area of our law > enforcement where the law (or rules) as stated by the state and as > enforced by the state cops don't even agree. > Maybe it is best to travel only on the net any more. The highways are deathtraps. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Sean Roach Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:59:05 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701282159.NAA04160@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 08:00 PM 1/27/97 EST, Dr.Dimitri Vulis KOTM wrote: >blanc writes: ... >> 2) Why do you suppose the Iraqis haven't already thought of doing this >> themselves? > >Perhaps because they love Saddam, who really is a great guy. Stop listening >to what U.S.gubmint and media tell you and use your brain. What did >Saddam do to _you? Those of us in the US have the luxery of secret ballots, Iraq is not. What was reported to me (by the media) was that those who decided to vote against Hussein, in a time when food was scarce, decided to vote against eating. It was not made illegal to vote him out, merely a catch 22, unless enough people agreed openly, the vocal minority would suffer. What we should have been doing as the troops pulled out and a no fly zone was being established was dropping bombs full of bread on the populus. Then they could have voted any which way they chose. ... >> Destructive people often ascend to positions of power not simply because >> they are ruthless, but because they have 1) many sycophantic followers and >> 2) many ignorant, vulnerable people unable to prevent it. You might be >> able to kill off one Saddam, but potentially many others would be waiting >> in the wings to take his place. The situation surrounding the existence >> of someone like Saddam is part of the contributing factors which keeps him >> there, not simply that one man himself. It was the same with Hitler and >> with so many others - they don't just have an excess of "power" >> concentrated within themselves which puts them in positions of control over >> others - there will have been many people who will have helped put them >> there, expecting to derive benefits from it. > >I don't like your Saddam example, having much admiration for the man, but >again this goes back to the perceived likelihood of future assassination. >If Saddam is killed in an unlikely event, he will be succeeded by someone >who does not fear assassination. If all potential successors are convinced >that the rubout can be repeated, they won't go for the job. Remember, the >purpose of "terrorism" is not just to kill someone, but to "terrorize". > >> And what will be done about all those people who made this "power" >> possible? You don't just kill the one man and be done with it - you have >> to also "kill" the conditions which maintained him. > >You rub out enough key people and terrorize their potential successors >into not wanting to take over their jobs, and the system collapses. ... I don't remember where I heard this, and in all likelyhood, I heard it here. This is certainly not a direct quote, ant would the origional poster please speak up. There came a time, in some ancient civilization when the king committed suicide by eating poisoned food. In the remaining week, most of the household, apparently in honor of the deceased king, jumped on kitchen knives and butcher knives, killing themselves. The brother of the king would not come out of hiding because some unknown person was terrorizing him with a meat cleaver. After a year, it was apparent that no one in the line of succession still survived, all killing themselves with kitchen utensils. It was rumored that the post was cursed. It was then that the royal galley slave bravely stepped foreward to rule the kingdom until one of the origional line should return. The decendants of the galley slave have ruled to this day. Like I said, I don't know where this came from, but I would like to see it again, if it came from here. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Derek Atkins Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:46:19 -0800 (PST) To: Erp Subject: Re: Best Computer School? Message-ID: <199701282246.OAA05596@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Erp writes: > On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, SpyKing wrote: > > > This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a teenage > > son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer science in > > college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's leaning toward MIT. > > Any suggestions from list members as to colleges to investigate? > > Well in reference to MIT.. I hope he has a 4.0 in highschool, is an > allsport, has a 1600 on his SAT's, and a prefect on his ACT.. Just to > even think about going there.. Let alone to include how well he'll have > to do on his interviews etc.. Also you may wish to have him look again at This is really exagerating. You do not need a 4.0, 1600, etc. to be admitted to MIT. Sure, you need good grades, but a 3.6 average and 1350-1400 SAT scores is perfectly adequate to be admitted to MIT. You can think of being admitted with even lower scores, if you stand out in some way. MIT admissions looks for well-rounded students. You're much better off being a writer/artist/musician than being on the science or math teams. > what he wants to be before he goes to some major college such as MIT, > because tuition at MIT costs approx 100,000$/4 years. Personally that is > a hell of a lot, but then again *shrug*... I recommend going to a local It may be alot, but then again MIT is one of the best schools in the world (I'm not going to be egotistical enough to say it *is* the best, even tho Consumer Reports rated it such for the last N years). > small college, get his associates, see if that is what he still wants to > do, then go on from there. I know many people that started in Computer > Science and died after the first year. > Now colleges that are good for Computer Sc ience.. I have heard that RIT > is good.. but I'm nto sure on that.. I know pretty well positive that > MIT is excellent, but when you get down to the basics MIT is more of an > engineering school than a science/philosophical school which Computer This is untrue. The computer science department at MIT is really good. As are the sciences, and even business! The MIT Sloan School (Management and Economics) was rated #1 last year. The EECS department (EE and CS are together) is top notch, too. Ciro Maria writes: > Yeah Stevens Institute in Hoboken. Its pretty good I got there. Also > Caltech is good, I don't really know which else. When I looked at Caltech, their Engineering (and computer science) really lacked. They were excellent for the Sciences (Math, Physics, Chemistry, etc.) but their engineering school wasn't as good as others I was looking at (both EE and CS). Things may have changed in the last 8 years, however. Spyking, my advise to you: Look around at many schools. Go visit them. Talk to the students there. Talk to the professors. Talk to graduates. The more information you and your son have, the better decisions you and he can make. Personally, I loved MIT -- it was the right place for me. It isn't the right place for everyone. Make sure it is the right place for your son before he applies. For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high school, too ;) Good Luck, -derek -- Derek Atkins, SB '93 MIT EE, SM '95 MIT Media Laboratory Member, MIT Student Information Processing Board (SIPB) Home page: http://www.mit.edu:8001/people/warlord/home_page.html warlord@MIT.EDU PP-ASEL N1NWH PGP key available From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:12:32 -0800 (PST) To: "'dthorn@gte.net> Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701282212.OAA04726@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >That's it? The system collapsed because the guards left their posts? >And no mutiny charges? Incredible. I was there. The collapse of East Germany was quite spectacular. There was at most three months of warning. First there was a series of sit ins at foreign embassies, then a migration of large numbers of people in their twenties within the eastern block. I missed the actual collapse of the wall itself having to go to England. I was told of the sequence of events by friends in Berlin. By this time the protestors were confident enough to stage open demonstrations. The authorities had tolerated small scale demonstrations for some time provided they did not appear to be part of a larger movement. The sudden increase in numbers from tens to tens of thousands left the authorities unsure of what to do. They could not be sure of the reliability of the police should they attempt to violently suppress the demonstrations. To imprison the ringleaders was equally dangerous. The communists were aware that the South Africans had continued to be troubled by Mandela and Biko long after they were imprisoned or murdered. At some point a group of protesters approached the wall, probably hoping to goad the police into making an arrest. The guards made no response and the numbers increased to the point where firing of warning shots was impossible without causing a massacre. West German protesters joined from the other side of the wall. The border guards did try to use a water cannon but to little effect since the range was insufficient. At some point someone appeared with a sledge hammer and a pickaxe. Some people say that this was at the start of the protest, others that someone fetched them. I have heard people who believe that they were brought from either side of the wall. They started attacking the wall and soon had removed one of the panels. Next day the border guards quite literally abandoned their posts. The Brandenburg gate was opened for the first time in fifty years and the party apparatus all but collapsed. The only military activity during this period was GDR forces preparing against possible invasion by Soviet forces. Not that this was a logistical possibility since it was unlikely they would get across Poland unopposed. Read Norman Davies book "Europe a history" if you want to find out the background for the velvet revolution. It is one of the most amazing events in political history. It is a pity that people have forgotten so quickly about the real causes. It was not military power that prevailed but the protest movement. Unfortunately US commentators tend to see everything in terms of US cultural norms, many of which were explicitly rejected by the protestors. The East Germans wanted West German affluence, they wanted to be part of Western Europe. They were certainly not responding to US military spending as right wing theorists claim, nor was the economy collapsing because of the arms race, it was collapsing because of the costs of a totalitarian state and the incompatibility of that state with modern industrial organization. Phill From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Sean Roach Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:12:27 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701282212.OAA04712@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 10:47 PM 1/27/97 -0800, jim bell wrote: ... >You misunderstand AP, yet again. AP doesn't really take votes, it merely >totals donations. It is an essential element of the AP system that even a >tiny minority should be able to kill individuals who are seen as threats, as >long as this capability is universal. True, the smaller the minority the >more uneconomical such an action would be for them, but it would be well >within the ability of 1% of the population to avoid a another Holocaust by >getting rid of those pushing for it. > >In the current political system, in the US for instance, 51% of the >population is able to screw the remaining 49%, just as long as they can >maintain the majority. Or, perhaps even more accurately and ominously, a >tiny fraction of the population (the current leadership class) is able to >screw the 49%, as long as they have the un-thinking backing of the remaining >and relatively uninvolved 51%. > >AP disables this system. AP turns government into the moral equivalent of a >pick-up football game: Nobody is being forced to play, and everybody and >anybody can simply "get up and leave" whenever he wants to. The moment the >"rules of the game" to make an individual's continued participation >unsatisfying, he can leave. > ... In our society, which, if I remember correctly, 10% of the population control 90% of the wealth, AP would only lead to 10% of the population being able to screw the remaining 90%. At least as it is, it takes a simple majority. As for the murder of the rich, here is a scenerio. A collection of poor pool their capitol to have a tyrant killed. The tyrant assembles a counter-wager saying that anyone able to prove thier ability to kill him without harming him, and who can show they got through will get 110% of the poor's bid. The household is told that a standing bounty has been placed with a collection of individuals, on the head of the trigger man involved in the tyrants murder. The poor can not hope to match the tyrants bid as they only have 10% of the wealth, the household knows that thier participation in an attempt on the tyrant will get them killed. Even if the attempt was successful. The people from the outside who would benefit from the bounty benefit more by taking the tyrants offer and then trying again, i.e. tiger teams. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Somebody Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:56:02 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Sovreign Right of Lawful Access Message-ID: <199701282156.NAA03998@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain This morning at the RSA keynote, David Aaron, the US Crypto ambassador quoted the "Sovreign Right of Lawful Access" as something that goverments were determined to preserve. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Theodor.SCHLICKMANN@bxl.dg13.cec.be Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:13:36 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: How to subscribe Message-ID: <199701282113.NAA02325@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I have learned from the discussions in this list that there are other lists related to this one. Can anybody send me information on what is available and when this confusion created by having different lists will stop. cypherpunks : unmoderated and uncensored cypherpunks : unmoderated and censored cypherpunks : moderated and uncensored cypherpunks : moderated and censored cypherpunks : US eyes only -- export restrictions cypherpunks : Europe cypherpunks : private mail Theodor W. Schlickmann From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Mullen, Patrick Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:56:42 -0800 (PST) To: "'Phil Karn'" Subject: Where's reference? (was:RE: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7) Message-ID: <199701282156.NAA04048@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >>---------- >>From: Phil Karn[SMTP:karn@qualcomm.com] >>>If past cryptographic software is any indication, the DES Cracker >>>will be available from an overseas ftp site within hours of release in >>>the US. >> >>And lacking that, the author can always print it out on paper and >>physically mail it out of the country; this is specifically allowed by >>the new Commerce rules as I understand them. And who's to say that the >>overseas FTP copies weren't scanned from such a paper copy? :-) >> >>Phil > Where can I get a reference to this? I thought you weren't supposed to transmit cryptographic code out of the U.S. under any means, including print... >(???) > >~ Patrick > From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Erp Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:57:24 -0800 (PST) To: Derek Atkins Subject: Re: Best Computer School? Message-ID: <199701282157.NAA04105@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On 28 Jan 1997, Derek Atkins wrote: > Erp writes: > > > On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, SpyKing wrote: > > > This is really exagerating. You do not need a 4.0, 1600, etc. to be > admitted to MIT. Sure, you need good grades, but a 3.6 average and > 1350-1400 SAT scores is perfectly adequate to be admitted to MIT. You > can think of being admitted with even lower scores, if you stand out > in some way. MIT admissions looks for well-rounded students. You're > much better off being a writer/artist/musician than being on the > science or math teams. > Hmm.... Then a have a lieing blah blah blah of a counselor >) hehe I applied for MIT, and even had an interview.. Then dropped my application after getting chewed out by my counselor, and having had her refuse to fill out anything on my second part of the application that said specifically "COUNSELOR ONLY" went to the principal and he refused.. Filled it out myself, and since it didn't have the counselors signature ... I dropped it aka they dropped me but its easier to say it hteo ther way around. And yes I understand the well-rounded thing.. But then again you hav eto consider that the average student at MIT has applied at least two times. I know that one for a fact from some program or something I read that MIT puts out. > > what he wants to be before he goes to some major college such as MIT, > > because tuition at MIT costs approx 100,000$/4 years. Personally that is > > a hell of a lot, but then again *shrug*... I recommend going to a local > > It may be alot, but then again MIT is one of the best schools in the > world (I'm not going to be egotistical enough to say it *is* the best, > even tho Consumer Reports rated it such for the last N years). True, it is one of the best, can't argue against that.. But there are others that are better in certain areas.. from my knowledge MIT expresses more in its engineering departments than anything else though.. Although I do know a very philosophical physics professor there so *shrug*.. maybe I'll apply again some day.. And yes all the rest of my requirements wher ehigh.. I am a swimteam captain, first trombone in my school, for marching jazz pep and symphonic bands.. I'm also the lead french horn.. Then I have the little side things such as Chess team captain.. and have tha precious 3.6 GPA the only proglem with it is I ahve one teacher that gave me a D in my freshman year, so I can't get into honor society .. go figure... But hey such is life.. I'm planning on reapplying after I get into college and raise myself back to a 4 point so who knows what will happen.. > > This is untrue. The computer science department at MIT is really > good. As are the sciences, and even business! The MIT Sloan School > (Management and Economics) was rated #1 last year. The EECS > department (EE and CS are together) is top notch, too. Really good yes.. Not necessarily the best though.. Check everywhere.. each aspect of every college may have one thing that he is specifically interested in that would be better than going to MIT or some other such place3... > > Ciro Maria writes: > > > Yeah Stevens Institute in Hoboken. Its pretty good I got there. Also > > Caltech is good, I don't really know which else. > > When I looked at Caltech, their Engineering (and computer science) > really lacked. They were excellent for the Sciences (Math, Physics, > Chemistry, etc.) but their engineering school wasn't as good as others > I was looking at (both EE and CS). Things may have changed in the > last 8 years, however. *nod* I do agree with that... THey are pretty much the same now.. > > > Spyking, my advise to you: Look around at many schools. Go visit > them. Talk to the students there. Talk to the professors. Talk to > graduates. The more information you and your son have, the better > decisions you and he can make. > > Personally, I loved MIT -- it was the right place for me. It isn't > the right place for everyone. Make sure it is the right place for > your son before he applies. For what it's worth, I wanted to go to > MIT my sophomore year in high school, too ;) I havet o ask, did you make it in on your first apply to it? and please forgive the mistypes in this.. I'm really lagged for some reason.. And well, It takes forever to go back when it is lagged this bd, so I ahven't can back and changed things automatically like I usually do... > Thanks, Erp From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: nobody@nowhere.com Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:00:48 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: can Sun Tzu be a cypherpunks? Message-ID: <199701290300.TAA15126@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Quotations from the Art Of War by Sun Tzu A Military operation involves deception. Even though you are competent, appear to be incompetent. Though effective, appear to be ineffective. Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion. Use humility to make them haughty. Tire them by flight. Cause division among them. Attack when they are unprepared, make your move when they do not expect it. The formation and procedure used by the military should not be divulged beforehand. Comment: He seems to be advocating security through obscurity here. The one who figures on victory at headquarters before even doing battle is the one who has the most strategic factors on his side. The one who figures on inability to prevail at headquarters before doing battle is the one who has the least strategic factors on his side. The one with many strategic factors in his favor wins, the one with few strategic factors in his favor loses--how much more so for the one with no strategic factors in his favor. Observing the matter this way, I can see who will win and who will lose. The superior militarist strikes while schemes are being laid. The next best is to attack alliances. The next best is to attack the army. Invincibility is in oneself, vulnerability is in the opponent. Therefore skilled warriors are able to be invincible, but they cannot cause opponents to be vulnerable. That is why it is said that victory can be discerned but not manufactured. Invincibility is a matter of defense, vulnerability is a matter of attack. Therefore the victories of good warriors are not noted for cleverness or bravery. Therefore their victories in battle are not flukes. Their victories are not flukes because they position themselves where they will surely win, prevailing over those who have already lost. So it is that good warriors take their stand on ground where they cannot lose, and do not overlook conditions that make an opponent prone to defeat. Therefore a victorious army first wins and then seeks battle; a defeated army first battles and then seeks victory. Those who use arms well cultivate the Way and keep the rules. Thus they can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt. Comment: Would it not be wonderful if we could prevail over the corrupt? Making the armies able to take on opponents without being defeated is a matter of unorthodox and orthodox methods. Therefore those skilled at the unorthodox are infinite as heaven and earth, inexhaustible as the great rivers. When they come to an end, they begin again, like the days and months; they die and are reborn, like the four seasons. The unorthodox and the orthodox give rise to each other, like a beginningless circle--who could exhaust them? Disorder arises from order, cowardice arises from courage, weakness arises from strength. Therefore those who skillfully move opponents make formations that the opponents are sure to follow, give what opponents are sure to take. They move opponents with the prospect of gain, waiting for them in ambush. To unfailingly take what you attack, attack where there is no defense. For unfailingly secure defense, defend where there is no attack. So in the case of those who are skilled in attack, their opponents do not know where to defend. In the case of those skilled in defense, their opponents do not know where to attack. Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate. Comment: Are cypherpunks capable of this? To advance irresistibly, push through their gaps, to retreat elusively, outspeed them. Induce them to adopt specific formations, in order to know the ground of death and life. Comment: Sounds like known plaintext attack to me. Therefore the consummation of forming an army is to arrive at formlessness. When you have no form, undercover espionage cannot find out anything, intelligence cannot form a strategy. Comment: Sun Tzu seems to being saying that if your cipher is properly designed, you need not rely on security through obscurity. Victory over multitudes by means of formation is unknowable to the multitudes. Everyone knows the form by which I am victorious, but no one knows the form by which I ensure victory. Military formation is like water--the form of water is to avoid the high and go to the low, the form of a military force is to avoid the full and attack the empty; the flow of water is determined by the earth, the victory of a military force is determined by the opponent. So a military force has not constant formation, water has no constant shape;the ability to gain victory by changing and adapting according to the opponent is called genius. Foreknowledge cannot be gotten from ghosts and spirits, cannot be had by analogy, cannot be found out by calculation. It must be obtained from people, people know the conditions of the enemy. There are five kinds of spy: The local spy, the inside spy, the reverse spy, the dead spy, and the living spy. When the five kinds of spies are all active, no one knows their routes--this is called organizational genius, and is valuable to the leadership. Local spies are hired from among the people of a locality; Inside spies are hired from among enemy officials. Reverse spies are hired from enemy spies. Dead spies transmit false intelligence to enemy spies. Living spies come back to report. Question: Can cypherpunks use these methods to defeat those who would take our freedom? From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:25:54 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: c2 internet accounts Message-ID: <199701290025.QAA08837@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain does c2net still offer internet accounts? I liked their offer for internet accounts with a 5 mb web site via telnet. does anyone else know of a place for cheap telnet only accounts? thanks; From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Ian Goldberg Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:00:14 -0800 (PST) To: cryptography@c2.net Subject: Last nail for US crypto export policy? Message-ID: <199701290300.TAA15101@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain EXPORTABLE CRYPTOGRAPHY TOTALLY INSECURE: CHALLENGE CIPHER BROKEN IMMEDIATELY January 28, 1997 - Ian Goldberg, a UC Berkeley graduate student, announced today that he had successfully cracked RSA Data Security Inc.'s 40-bit challenge cipher in just under 3.5 hours. RSA challenged scientists to break their encryption technology, offering a $1000 award for breaking the weakest version of the code. Their offering was designed to stimulate research and practical experience with the security of today's codes. The number of bits in a cipher is an indication of the maximum level of security the cipher can provide. Each additional bit doubles the potential security level of the cipher. A recent panel of experts recommended using 90-bit ciphers, and 128-bit ciphers are commonly used throughout the world, but US government regulations restrict exportable US products to a mere 40 bits. Goldberg's announcement, which came just three and a half hours after RSA started their contest, provides very strong evidence that 40-bit ciphers are totally unsuitable for practical security. "This is the final proof of what we've known for years: 40-bit encryption technology is obsolete," Goldberg said. The US export restrictions have limited the deployment of technology that could greatly strengthen security on the Internet, often affecting both foreign and domestic users. "We know how to build strong encryption; the government just won't let us deploy it. We need strong encryption to uphold privacy, maintain security, and support commerce on the Internet -- these export restrictions on cryptography must be lifted," Goldberg explained. Fittingly, when Goldberg finally unscrambled the challenge message, it read: "This is why you should use a longer key." Goldberg used UC Berkeley's Network of Workstations (known as the NOW) to harness the computational resources of about 250 idle machines. This allowed him to test 100 billion possible "keys" per hour -- analogous to safecracking by trying every possible combination at high speed. This amount of computing power is available with little overhead cost to students and employees at many large educational institutions and corporations. Goldberg is a founding member of the ISAAC computer security research group at UC Berkeley. In the Fall of 1995, the ISAAC group made headlines by revealing a major security flaw in Netscape's web browser. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:13:48 -0800 (PST) To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com> Subject: Re: Best Computer School? Message-ID: <199701282213.OAA04786@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Erp wrote in article <5cjlg0$2ij@life.ai.mit.edu>... > > > > On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, SpyKing wrote: > > > This is a little off topic but maybe someone can help. I've got a teenage > > son (HS sophomore) who's interested in majoring in computer science in > > college with a particular interest in cryptography. He's leaning toward MIT. > > Any suggestions from list members as to colleges to investigate? > > Well in reference to MIT.. I hope he has a 4.0 in highschool, is an > allsport, has a 1600 on his SAT's, and a prefect on his ACT.. Just to > even think about going there.. Let alone to include how well he'll have > to do on his interviews etc.. Also you may wish to have him look again at > what he wants to be before he goes to some major college such as MIT, > because tuition at MIT costs approx 100,000$/4 years. Actually MIT does not take notice of SATs, GSATs and other IQ nonsense. Basically the tests are meaningless at the upper end of the scale which is where most MIT students would score and a low score does not in itself demonstate stupidity. If he can get in then its difficult to imagine a better school for crypto in the US. There is a finacial support program and admission is "needs blind" so that grants are matched according to need. > I know pretty well positive that > MIT is excellent, but when you get down to the basics MIT is more of an > engineering school than a science/philosophical school which Computer > Sciences falls under.. Another good school from what I've heard is UCLA.. > then again you can discredit anything I've said, because I'm still a > HighSchool senior myself and have been looking into Computer Criminology > for the last three years, and I'm positive it is what i want so *shrug*.. Actually there is a reasonable school for philosophy just up the road but its not so good for computer science (it did produce Bill Gates.) The AI lab does have a number of people who lean quite heavilly to the philosophy side. Phill From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Sandy Sandfort Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:15:14 -0800 (PST) To: "Vladimir Z. Nuri" Subject: Re: c2 internet accounts Message-ID: <199701290215.SAA13437@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Vladimir Z. Nuri wrote: > does c2net still offer internet accounts? I liked their > offer for internet accounts with a 5 mb web site via > telnet. does anyone else know of a place for cheap > telnet only accounts? C2Net no longer offers new shell accounts and we are phasing out pre-existing accounts. We still offer virtual web hosting. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Martin Janzen Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:26:25 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Trigger-Words... Message-ID: <199701290126.RAA11362@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain harka@nycmetro.com writes: >does anybody know any contact points/Web pages, where I might get >some information on e-mail filtering via trigger-words? I am >interested in how this technology specifically works and a >acollection of trigger-words would be nice too :) You might start with the Mail Filtering FAQ: http://www.cis.ohio-state.edu/hypertext/faq/usenet/mail/filtering-faq/faq.html It's pretty Unix-specific, covering procmail, Elm filter, and mailagent. For PC-based mailers, you're probably better off checking the documentation and/or the web page for the one you're using. Finally, take a look at the comp.mail.* newsgroups. Or just use the search engines, throwing in combinations of the above terms... -- Martin Janzen janzen@idacom.hp.com Pegasus Systems Group c/o Hewlett-Packard Company, CMD Vancouver From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Phil Karn Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:58:56 -0800 (PST) To: MullenP@ndhm06.ndhm.gtegsc.com Subject: Re: Machine readable form (was:RE: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7) Message-ID: <199701290258.SAA15049@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Read the following text from the introduction to the new December 30, 1996 regulations: A printed book or other printed material setting forth encryption source code is not itself subject to the EAR (see Sec. 734.3(b)(2)). However, notwithstanding Sec. 734.3(b)(2), encryption source code in electronic form or media (e.g., computer diskette or CD ROM) remains subject to the EAR (see Sec. 734.3(b)(3)). The administration continues to review whether and to what extent scannable encryption source or object code in printed form should be subject to the EAR and reserves the option to impose export controls on such software for national security and foreign policy reasons. This seems clear enough. If it's printed on paper, it's kosher for export. But if we're really overt about it, we may goad the government into attempting to control printed source code as well. That could prove most interesting. Phil From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:26:20 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: can Sun Tzu be a cypherpunks? Message-ID: <199701290226.SAA13870@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain nobody@nowhere.com wrote: > Question: Can cypherpunks use these methods to defeat those > who would take our freedom? WARNING! "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" Is A Very Dangerous Document ------------------------------------------------------------------- It is reputed among many of the top minds in the Computer Industry to be a very real, and revealing, documentary of some of the horrors of the Industry which are sometimes rumored, but seldom exposed. But be warned-they say it in private, not in public. Though management at the major Corporations in the Industry brush aside the document as the mad ramblings of an unstable, failed business executive, the fact remains that there are more and more people coming forward who claim to have suffered demotions or loss of employment after deliberately or inadvertently revealing their support of the document's claims and it's authenticity. If you choose to read this manuscript, do not speak of it in casual conversation at your place of employment, or around strangers in any business or social environment. Though it is almost impossible to document cases of reprisal of this nature, the increasing numbers of ex-employees of major Corporations in the Computer Industry making these claims, and the devastating consequences they allege to their professional and private lives, make it wise to be discreet in expressing any opinion, or even knowledge, of this document. If you choose to share this document with others, it would be wise to do so discreetly, even anonymously, should you be unsure of the reliability and discretion of whomever you choose to share this knowledge with. Though I personally lean toward viewing the manuscript as authentic, my exhaustive research into it's origin has always come to a dead-end, even among the principals involved. C.J. Parker, former President of Pearl Harbor Computers, Inc., denied emphatically, in a face-to-face encounter with anything whatsoever to do with the document. When I pressed him with questions regarding the hasty demise of his business and the unraveling of his personal life after the public circulation of "The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre" began, he became very agitated and distraught, bordering on violence, and the interview was abruptly terminated. Dr. William M. Denney, one of the few principals in the manuscript referred to directly, was reluctant to be interviewed, but eventually made a few comments which I found to be very revealing. Dr. Denney, Vice-President of Basis, Inc. in Emmeryville, Ca., consistently rated as one of the top ten Unix Open Systems vendors in the world, said, "I deny any knowledge of or participation, in any way whatsoever, with anything connected to 'The Xenix Chainsaw Massacre', and it would be wise for others to do the same." I find this statement to be very cryptic and, at the same time, very revealing; very much in line with what would expect from one associated with the alleged underground computer society described in the manuscript. As for Mr. Torry Basford, a former employee of Bell Labs who was Mr. Parker's first mentor in the world of Unix and is rumored to be laboring in obscurity in a small community college somewhere in the southwestern U.S., Mr. Parker would only say, "The man has suffered enough, please leave him alone." Regardless of the origins or authenticity of the document, it is considered by many to be extremely unsettling, perhaps even dangerous, and one might be better served to avoid reading the manuscript, if for no other reason than simple peace of mind. ___________________________________ If you would like a copy of the manuscript, send me a private email indicating a desire to receive it. Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: ichudov@algebra.com Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:11:12 -0800 (PST) To: harka@nycmetro.com Subject: Re: Trigger-Words... Message-ID: <199701290111.RAA10710@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain harka@nycmetro.com wrote: > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > > Hi there, > > does anybody know any contact points/Web pages, where I might get > some information on e-mail filtering via trigger-words? I am > interested in how this technology specifically works and a > collection of trigger-words would be nice too :) Look at http://www.algebra.com/~ichudov/usenet/scrm/robomod/robomod.html, and look for the explanation of how bad.words.list works in my robomoderator. - Igor. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Neil Rogers Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:56:06 -0800 (PST) To: Access All Areas Subject: .hlp creation Message-ID: <199701282156.NAA04005@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Howdi all, how are you, Can someone please help me, Can someone create a Windows 3.1 .hlp file fro me, when opened has a link to FILE MANAGER - U:\W31\winfile.exe Please, I have tried but can't do one, I would be really gratefull if someone could help! Thanks in advance, Neil .............. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:10:55 -0800 (PST) To: Ian Goldberg Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy? Message-ID: <199701290610.WAA20623@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Yee-hah! Congratulations (and enjoy the $1000 check!) So what did you do interesting cryptographically in the crack, other than coordinating a bunch of workstations? Was it just brute force with well-tuned code? Given the figures in your press release, it sounds like you tested about 350 billion keys out of a trillion possible, so you hit the winner a shade early. That's about 400,000 keys/sec/box. Are the machines mostly Pentiums, Alphas, Suns, etc.? At 03:59 PM 1/28/97 -0800, Ian Goldberg wrote: >EXPORTABLE CRYPTOGRAPHY TOTALLY INSECURE: CHALLENGE CIPHER BROKEN IMMEDIATELY > >January 28, 1997 - Ian Goldberg, a UC Berkeley graduate student, >announced today that he had successfully cracked RSA Data Security >Inc.'s 40-bit challenge cipher in just under 3.5 hours. .... >Goldberg used UC Berkeley's Network of Workstations (known as the NOW) >to harness the computational resources of about 250 idle machines. >This allowed him to test 100 billion possible "keys" per hour -- # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:11:22 -0800 (PST) To: Phil Karn Subject: Re: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7 Message-ID: <199701291511.HAA03680@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 08:31 PM 1/27/97 -0800, Phil Karn wrote: >And lacking that, the author can always print it out on paper and >physically mail it out of the country; this is specifically allowed by >the new Commerce rules as I understand them. And who's to say that the >overseas FTP copies weren't scanned from such a paper copy? :-) At least one PGP site overseas did that - some German university scanned in a copy of the MIT Press publication of PGP source. The PGP 3.0 Pre-Alpha code is now available, on paper, from PGP Inc. Selling copies of PGP overseas, even if exported this way, might count as "providing a defense service", if that's still illegal now that crypto export laws have been moved to Commerce Dept. On the other hand, indemnifying people against copyright suits from your company _doesn't_ sound like it.... :-) # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: ichudov@algebra.com Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:41:02 -0800 (PST) To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701290241.SAA14333@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Phillip M. Hallam-Baker wrote: > > > > jim bell wrote in article <5ch9f2$cuu@life.ai.mit.edu>... > > > Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to > > prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see > > any recognition of this fact. > > Thats because its a whacko solution that has no credibility > or consistency. > > If anyone tried to set up such a market and a price went out > on any of the heads of state fantasized about Mr Bell would be > dead as a doornail in a week. But, if Jim writes the bot well, puts it in an unknown place (remember, all communications are done through remailers), he could die, but the assassination bot would still work. It may be an interesting problem: what steps are necessary to take to provide for the bot maintainers' sudden death in such a way that the bot would survive for a long time (at least 10 years) w/o any maintenance? Several things need to be done, such as running several versions of the bot so that they could all communicate and work as hot standbys in case one of the instances stops communicating; change their anonymous address from time to time to deal with shut down remailers; probably slowly propagate as virii, so that killing them all would be hard; what else? It could be done akin to Thompson's famous backdoor in /bin/login, as a perpetual trojan horse. How to prevent the bot's detection by sysadmins? - Igor. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: jim bell Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:11:02 -0800 (PST) To: aga Subject: Re: libsln.htm -- Is Libel a Crime? Message-ID: <199701290411.UAA17826@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 07:33 AM 1/28/97 -0500, aga wrote: >On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, jim bell wrote: > >> At 01:14 AM 1/27/97 -0600, ichudov@algebra.com wrote: >> >These postings do not prove that libel is a crime. It is because libel >> >is not a crime. Libel is a tort, and unlike with crime, the government >> >cannot initiate a legal action against someone for libel. Only injured >> >(libeled) individuals and not the government can sue in a libel case. >> >> On the contrary, in some jurisdictions libel is indeed a crime. However, >> that doesn't mean that prosecutions happen anymore, but the laws are (in >> some places) still on the books. > >Jim, either you are full of shit or that Law is VERY >unconstitutional. The first amendment prohibits any Criminal Laws >from being made against libel. You'd think that, wouldn't you? Yes, I agree that those laws are unconstitutional, but so is about 90+% of what the Federal government does today. Sigh. Criminal libel statutes are apparently (in the US, at least) a holdover from an earlier era in which government took the place of King George, and wanted the power to punish people who were too outspoken. The fact that they are "never" (?) used anymore is presumably a reflection of their unconstitutionality. Criminal libel statues should also be considered unconstitutional because they give way too much leeway to the prosecutor to decide whom to prosecute. His friends will never be charged, but his enemies will. One obvious problem with the LACK of a criminal libel statute, from the standpoint of the "government-controlling-class," or "the bigshots," is that it's impossible to sue (and collect from) a (comparatively) poor person for defaming him...but it's still possible to put him in jail. Civil libel is, therefore, essentially useless to a government agent as a means of keeping the masses in line. Myself, I believe that libel should be eliminated as a cause of action in civil cases as well as it has, de facto, in the criminal area. If anything, the ability to sue for libel makes things worse: There is an illusion that this is easy and straightforward, if not economical. It is neither. The result is that people are actually MORE likely to believe a printed falsehood because they incorrectly assume that if it wasn't true, it couldn't be printed. Jim Bell jimbell@pacifier.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Robert Hettinga Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 17:26:25 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: AltaVista sprouts a hole ... Message-ID: <199701290126.RAA11363@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain --- begin forwarded text Sender: e$@thumper.vmeng.com Reply-To: Russell Stuart MIME-Version: 1.0 Precedence: Bulk Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 08:07:27 +1000 From: Russell Stuart To: Multiple recipients of Subject: AltaVista sprouts a hole ... From: risko@csl.sri.com (RISKS List Owner) Newsgroups: comp.risks Subject: RISKS DIGEST 18.77 Message-ID: RISKS-LIST: Risks-Forum Digest Monday 20 January 1997 Volume 18 : Issue 77 FORUM ON RISKS TO THE PUBLIC IN COMPUTERS AND RELATED SYSTEMS (comp.risks) ACM Committee on Computers and Public Policy, Peter G. Neumann, moderator ***** See last item for further information, disclaimers, caveats, etc. ***** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jan 97 23:52:00 +0100 From: Anders Andersson Subject: Leaking WWW surfer interest profiles I notice that AltaVista's inline advertisements link to a server outside Digital, "ad.doubleclick.net", and that the URL includes the user's list of keywords being searched. I'm concerned that these URL's may occasionally leak information about the user's interests and inclinations to third parties, information which the user may prefer to keep private. This is not a new problem that appeared with the inline ads, since also the Referer: field of the HTTP protocol discloses to a target server exactly what AltaVista index page led the user to it. However, this requires that the user willfully follows that link. If sensitive information being leaked via the Referer: field is a problem, the user may obtain client software that withholds Referer: data, either conditionally or unconditionally. Also, a user who has asked AltaVista for "gay" pages is probably not too concerned about accidentally disclosing this fact to the maintainer of said "gay" pages. However, the doubleclick.net ads appear to bear no relationship to the keywords being searched, and they appear not only in the URL for the hyperlink to follow, but also in the IMG SRC URL. This means that in order to avoid disclosing my keyword lists to doubleclick.net, I have to disable automatic loading of inline images when using AltaVista! Why is it that when I perform a search for, say, "gay OR nazi AND scientology", AltaVista tricks my browser to give this very search string away to an advertising company by means of an inline image (the contents of which has nothing to do with my search)? I think I can trust the AltaVista maintainers not to save my keyword lists for future analysis, but what about an advertising company? It's kind of serendipity reversed. When you open a book to look up information on a specific subject, the book scans your mind to find out what other interests and hobbies you have. Anders Andersson, Dept. of Computer Systems, Uppsala University Box 325, S-751 05 UPPSALA, Sweden +46 18 183170 andersa@DoCS.UU.SE ------------------------------ Regards Russell Stuart Software Development Manager RSM Technology PTY LTD ---------------------- Phone: +61 7 3844 9631 Fax: +61 7 3844 9522 Email: R.Stuart@rsm.com.au --- end forwarded text ----------------- Robert Hettinga (rah@shipwright.com), Philodox e$, 44 Farquhar Street, Boston, MA 02131 USA "The cost of anything is the foregone alternative" -- Walter Johnson The e$ Home Page: http://www.shipwright.com/rah/ FC97: Anguilla, anyone? http://www.ai/fc97/ "If *you* don't go to FC97, *I* don't go to FC97" From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:03:21 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) Message-ID: <199701290303.TAA15228@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Forwarded message: > Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:12:36 -0500 > From: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" > Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) > > Jim Choate wrote in article <5cg99p$7a@life.ai.mit.edu>... > > The network is largely an intellectual creation. The hardware is > relatively unimportant, it can always be replaced. Try doing it without the hardware and software. There is a distinction, you apparently don't make, between the content and the methodology of distribution. Without the methodology there is no content. Ideas are cheap, distributing and trying them out (ie great social experiments) is expensive. This is why it is absolutely critical in a democratic society that those who own the means of distribution be left to their own means with minimal regulation based on the ideal 'if their actions do not harm another or their property without their prior consent' it isn't anyones business what they are doing with their distribution mechanisms. Whether you like it or not, each and every one of us have a responsibility to every other person on the planet. That responsibility is to ensure that our goals and desires don't infringe their goals and desires without their prior consent, this is a fundamenal responsibility of government. As hard as it is for many social scientist to accept privacy is a fundamental requirement for a equitable government. I express this simply by, "Democracy works not because of compromise but rather the refusal to compromise." > If you start from such a state and property centered ideology perhaps. > I'm a philosophical anarchist and I don't consider the state to have > "rights" over its "subjects", nor do I believe in the pure ideology of > property you do. The 'state' is its subjects and the rules that are enacted to regulate their behaviour. In case it hasn't occured to you, even the regulators are subjects, and in the case of clearly oppressive societies victims as much as those they subjugate. It isn't some etherial entity. Only you, and those that proscribe to your views, are claiming that states are some homogenous (or should be) set of rules and actions. The way you speak of 'state' and 'citizen' implies some clearly observable demarcation, it don't exist. This is the problem with EVERY form of government except a democracy, it assumes that people are cogs in a machine. If it satisfies one it will satisfy all. A democracy recognizes this difference in what people value and the goals they desire as a fundamental distinction (ie. life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness) worth protecting. I would suggest you read the 9th and 10th Amendments to the Constitution of the US and consider long and hard the ramifications of the (currently unenforced) limitations of government authority. Even European governments might learn something. > Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the > controllers of China literally so since they stole most of their "property" > from the previous rulers. Malarky. The origin of property is at least 300,000 years old, potentialy over a Million, and much older than China could ever hope to claim and most definitely NOT based on any concept of government. Property comes from small family clans of people who chose to move from a hunter-gather society to one of agriculture. To do that means that you have to lay out fields or other areas for cultivation. Initialy these groups moved around because the fields would go fallow. At some point some bright folks, either by accident or intentional experimentation (probably both), found that rotating crops would allow them to stay in one place. This allowed families to grow. In very fertile areas this caused population explosions as individual clans grew and began to interact with other local clans. At some critical size, undetermined as best as I can determine, this allows specialization of effort. This specialization of effort is what leads to governments as we recognize them. When property was 'invented' there were no rulers because there was no larger human organization than a familial tribe. I personaly believe that the concept of 'property' is a fundamental aspect of human psychology and not any structures they might impliment to express that need. I am as certain as it is possible to be that a Cro-magnon cave man felt that his throwing stick was 'his'. If not why did they bury their dead with flowers and other objects that apparently belonged to the person in life? It sounds like, by extrapolation, that your assertion is that they had government in the modern sense because of this. An assertion I find laughable at best. > I believe that the relationship between a state and individual is > a much more complex one than the slavish subjection model > you propose. In this I am in agreement with practically every > philosopher since Locke. But I don't propose a slavish subject model, you keep trying to make it seem like that is what I am proposing. Let me make it clear, I utterly reject ANY model that makes distinctions between those who rule and those who are ruled. > It is true that there is the convenience of the state as agency but > the question is on whose behalf that agency is exercised. Nobodies. The state is a means to regulate resources and commerce, anything else is a misunderstanding of what a state is. > I see no reason why I should not meddle in the affairs of states > I'm not a 'subject" of. Then don't bitch when they meddle in your affairs. I am shure Saddam Hussein (who I personaly believe is a piece of shit) will find it reassuring that you won't raise a complaint next time he decides some place in Europe would be a nice place to hang out with his armies. > They are allowed Allowed, hell. They pay for the privilege just like everyone else. Despite what you might believe the Internet is not a right or something anyone has a right to. > to connect their machinery to the Internet so long > as they are prepared to accept the Internet's ethic. There is no Internet ethic just as there is no community standard. It is a convenient concept for intellectuals to pass off utterly senseless theories and explanations, and in many cases justify subjugation and regulation for no other reason than their own emotional and economic comfort. > As a citizen of Europe I disagree. I believe that the narrow and > parochial attitude of the French province breaches undertakings in the > Treaty of Rome and under the European declaration of human rights. Absolutely. The difference in our approaches is that you feel that you have found a solution that satisfies you and therefore it should satisfy everyone. With this I disagree completely. People are simply too diverse to lump into the categories that you would like. If the French have a model that won't work, let them figure it out on their own. > France is not a sovereign state and does not have the right to > pass laws that infringe on the rights granted to European citizens > as a whole. I suspect most French people would have something contrary to say about that. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage@ssz.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:55:50 -0800 (PST) To: Austin Cypherpunks Subject: Physical meet, Sat. Feb. 15 - not 18. Message-ID: <199701290255.SAA14900@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hi all, I apparently didn't pay much attention to what month I was looking at when I made the initial meeting. Turns out the 18th is a Tuesday obviously a day that few of us can make. As a result I looked at the 'real' Feb. calendar and the meeting date is as follows: Saturday, Feb. 15, 1997 6pm. HEB Central Market Restaurant Look for the red 2nd. ed. Applied Cryptography book For more info email 'austin-cpunks@ssz.com' Also invited to this meet are members of the mailing lists: Experimental Science Instrumentation Advanced Computer Experimentation Sorry for the confusion. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage@ssz.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:56:04 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: CNN: Court ok's College control of Internet access Message-ID: <199701290256.SAA14916@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Note: Heavily edited. Forwarded message: > COURT SAYS COLLEGES CAN RESTRICT INTERNET ACCESS > > > January 28, 1997 > Web posted at: 1:35 p.m. EST > > NORMAN, Oklahoma (CNN) -- A U.S. District Court in Oklahoma has > ruled universities have the right to limit access to explicit > material on the Internet. > > A federal judge ruled University of Oklahoma president David Boren, > a former U.S. senator, has every right to determine what sites > students and faculty can view while on the campus Internet system. > > Boren was sued by University professor, Bill Loving, who claimed his > First Amendment rights were being infringed upon. > > The court ruled against Loving, also an attorney, saying his > constitutional rights were not violated and that he is not entitled > to injunctive relief. > > "I am certainly pleased by the judge's decision," Boren said. "The > university did its best to strike a careful balance in order to > protect legitimate academic and intellectual freedom while at the > same time assuring that the university not act as a distributor of > obscene material, which is not protected by the First Amendment." > rule From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Steve Schear Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:11:08 -0800 (PST) To: Sean Roach Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701290611.WAA20641@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain >In our society, which, if I remember correctly, 10% of the population >control 90% of the wealth, AP would only lead to 10% of the population being >able to screw the remaining 90%. At least as it is, it takes a simple >majority. > >As for the murder of the rich, here is a scenerio. > >A collection of poor pool their capitol to have a tyrant killed. >The tyrant assembles a counter-wager saying that anyone able to prove thier >ability to kill him without harming him, and who can show they got through >will get 110% of the poor's bid. >The household is told that a standing bounty has been placed with a >collection of individuals, on the head of the trigger man involved in the >tyrants murder. >The poor can not hope to match the tyrants bid as they only have 10% of the >wealth, the household knows that thier participation in an attempt on the >tyrant will get them killed. Even if the attempt was successful. >The people from the outside who would benefit from the bounty benefit more >by taking the tyrants offer and then trying again, i.e. tiger teams. I think a hole in your thinking is to assume that the assasins have no motive other than financial gain. I would submit that there are those that have the skills, training and a political agenda coherent with the wagerers, lacking only the financial incentive to make the risks acceptable. These wetworkers won't consider accepting the bribe of the rich/powerful --Steve From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Matthew Toth Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:57:30 -0800 (PST) To: SpyKing Subject: Re: Best Computer School? Message-ID: <199701290257.SAA14988@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain MIT is one the best schools in the country for C.S. Close behind is Carnegie Mellon University (C.M.U.) in Pittsburgh, PA. (the folks who put out CERT.) Not sure how much Crypto they do, though. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: drose@AZStarNet.com Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 20:12:43 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) Message-ID: <199701290412.UAA17890@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain "Phill" wrote: >I am a cyber-revolutionary and the world has bought into >the chaos of our revolution. I never intended the Web to be a tool >for confirming the present social order which is manifestly >corrupt. I am woman, hear me roar in numbers too big to ignore As R. J. Wagner once said, "Koo koo, baby." Hey, I hope that the above is construed as neither a flame nor as "off topic". May I additionally congratulate Nurdane on her birthday? Yo "Phill"! When's your cyber-revolutionary birthday? Maybe we can all chip in to buy you a biscuit. (See, in England, they say, "That certainly takes the biscuit". Eh, "Phill"?) BTW, "Phill", did you want to make good on your bet to Sandy at this time? Ain't C-punks fun nowadays? From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: blanc Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:11:11 -0800 (PST) To: "'cypherpunks@toad.com> Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701290611.WAA20647@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain From: jim bell [ on discussing AP on the cpunk list]: Because it's on-topic, that's why. Because it's not merely a list concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of using encryption. -- Well, you're right, this is probably a good place to discuss it, so all the NSA spooks will know what some of youall are up to. [ why the Iraquis haven't thought of applying it themselves - to Saddam]: As for why the ordinary Iraquis didn't think of it... Or the ordinary people of any or every country, as well. Why didn't THEY think of it? -- I was thinking the reason that most people don't think of applying AP is because they're normal. It is not the first thought of a normal person to kill another human, just because they've been offended - even severely. It takes an extraordinary circumstance to motivate one to such destruction, especially if there are a thousand armed troops supporting the object of the attempt. But in fact I do think that many in Iraq (whoever they were) did consider it seriously and have attempted to get rid of Saddam. I heard on a TV special that he has survived about 5 or so attempts on his life. This means that not only was he not killed, but he didn't learn anything from it and it created no fear in him about continuing to rule as a dictator. It probably was more discouraging to his enemies than himself. [ on why the Mafia hasn't achieved a rational society by the use of AP]: In fact, apparently, they function diametrically opposed to the AP system. A complete AP-like system is structured (via encryption, etc) to totally avoid anybody having to trust anyone else. Each participant is kept honest mathematically. Nobody can inform on anyone else, because nobody knows anyone else's identity. -- There are extraordinary times when people, even though they be of sound mind and body, are moved to band together and kill another person. There are a few occurances in history that anyone can immediately think of as examples. But this is in an *extra-ordinary* situation. A society of people - where "society" indicates their desire to live in each other's company, associating openly and developing working relations - would not really be a "society", would not last as an association of people, if they were expecting extreme, destructive reactions from others in response to any degree of perceived insult from themselves. Therefore, although I can appreciate the need to be able to deal with political tyrants by just killing them, and currently encryption and anonymity makes it possible to do this "blindly" without anyone knowing each other, I can't see where implementing this method of relating to others, in a system of daily operating procedures, would do better than to create an atmosphere of total paranoia and psychological breakdowns. I think it is very important that individuals be able to defend themselves - from anyone. It is unfortunate that citizen-units are not typically instructed in the methods of self-defense, nor especially allowed to practice it without "official authorization". If we were better able to do this, the fact that anyone anywhere could immediately deal with threats to their existence would in itself be an impressive "deterrent", contributing to the general welfare and peace. Be that as it may, although the capacities of encryption and the internet make anonymous AP possible, the drive of human intelligence is toward knowledge, towards knowing the reasons for things. It would wish to know what is right or wrong, it would wish to know how to be the most accurate, it would wish to know about cause and effect, it would wish to know how to be in command of itself, normally. If someone does something "wrong" which makes another unhappy, normally they will wish to know what it was and how to correct it. If every time someone made a mistake they got punished, without the opportunity to understand the error and without the opportunity to make corrections, they would be a psychological wreck. If every time someone made mistake they got assassinated, not only would no one wish to do anything for fear of losing their lives, creating a "society" of timid sheep, there probably wouldn't be many people remaining to savor the triumph of being superior. AP is just another form of war. You can bet that if assassinations increased a hundred fold as a result of your method, not only "governments" but some very bright people would get together to figure out a defense against it, for they also would be "at risk". .. Blanc From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: blanc Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:10:43 -0800 (PST) To: "cypherpunks@toad.com> Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701290610.WAA20606@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain From: Dr.Dimitri Vulis The Mafia in the U.S. doesn't work. The sicilian Mafia is very successful at assassinating any public officials that fucks with it. ............................................................ What do you suppose they would do if someone like you tried to break up their meetings? :>) .. Blanc From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:28:01 -0800 (PST) To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" Subject: Re: East German Collapse (Was: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701290628.WAA20945@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 12:59 PM 1/28/97 -0500, "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" wrote: >>That's it? The system collapsed because the guards left their posts? >>And no mutiny charges? Incredible. >I was there. >The collapse of East Germany was quite spectacular. There >was at most three months of warning. First there was a series >of sit ins at foreign embassies, then a migration of large >numbers of people in their twenties within the eastern block. In particular, people started leaving East Germany by way of still-somewhat-communist Hungary (where the Germans let them go) and from there into Austria (where the Hungarians let them go), and it was getting to be tens of thousands of people per month. Once a system like that starts leaking, it's hard to contain. (ObCypherpunksContent: if substantial amounts of tax money starts escaping into Cypherspace, it's not easy to maintain a modern CorporatistWelfare-for-Bureaucrats state either.....) >Unfortunately US commentators tend to see everything in terms of >US cultural norms, many of which were explicitly rejected by the >protestors. The East Germans wanted West German affluence, they >wanted to be part of Western Europe. They were certainly not >responding to US military spending as right wing theorists claim, >nor was the economy collapsing because of the arms race, it >was collapsing because of the costs of a totalitarian state and >the incompatibility of that state with modern industrial >organization. The US right wing does argue that the Soviets couldn't afford to run a military industrial complex big enough to outrace theirs, and that it was a major contributor to the economic collapse (which it probably was.) Of course, they also consider that Communism isn't an economically viable system, ignoring the similar problems with the Good Old American Patriotic Military-Industrial-Complex, and somehow think that now that there aren't any Russian Commies to kick around any more that we need a bigger army, as well as a supply of easily-kicked-around enemies. Unfortunately, I suspect that sometime soon they'll remember that there still are a billion Commies left, and that Oceania has always been at war with EastAsia. Hopefully the Communist system in China will have fallen apart by then to the extent that it can admit to being a semi-capitalist kleptocracy instead of pretending to still be in charge of anything. # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Rick Osborne Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:56:00 -0800 (PST) To: Derek Atkins Subject: Re: Best Computer School? Message-ID: <199701290256.SAA14915@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 12:32 PM 1/28/97 -0500, Derek Atkins wrote: >This is really exagerating. You do not need a 4.0, 1600, etc. to be >admitted to MIT. Sure, you need good grades, but a 3.6 average and >1350-1400 SAT scores is perfectly adequate to be admitted to MIT. I disagree and can speak from experience. I was denied admission to MIT even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2. As for being well-rounded, I was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in Drama, and played Tennis. The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money. I made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the Russian front!" >For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high >school, too Lucky you. It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying overachiever of 6. Sux to be white trash, I guess. MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most part. (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.) _________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________ "He who knows, does not speak. He who speaks, does not know." From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:26:20 -0800 (PST) To: aga Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701290626.WAA20920@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain aga wrote: > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote: > > aga wrote: > > > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Dale Thorn wrote: > > > > Igor Chudov @ home wrote: > > > > > Dale Thorn wrote: > > > > > > But seriously, I was just telling the folks over the weekend, if I > > > > had my hand on the button, a lot of people would die very quickly. > > > > As in The Day The Earth Stood Still, a single act of aggression would > > > > suffice to be immediately terminated. > > No trial, huh? Good question. The law we have right now already assumes that there are situations where a criminal will not go peacefully, if at all. In some countries (years ago?) such as England, bobbies were known to not carry firearms for ordinary street duty. Am I right? But here in the USA, that would be unthinkable. So my proposal doesn't eliminate the responsibility portion of law enforcement. I'd say, if a target were eliminated thru negligence, malfeasance, or other wrongdoing under "color of law" or whatever, let the courts handle that as they do now. My suggestion would give the law enforcers the ability to dispense the first level of justice expeditiously, which they cannot accomplish now due to all of the red tape and the corrupt legal system (lawyers specialize in getting chronic offenders off, particularly "traffic" offenses). By transferring a major portion of the bureaucracy to the pencil pushers, we can free up the street cops to do what they do best, namely bust or eliminate criminals. I dare say that the downside of this is much less pleasant than the virtual anarchy (in the bad sense) we suffer now. If the police get out of control, A.P. will arrive just in time to plug a few of those holes, so to speak. Ideally, future robotics should be able to provide something like Gort (sp?) to take the place of human officers, given advances in the kind of pattern matching needed to deter aggression and the like. Those who don't make it past the robots, well, the rest of us can learn to behave, and we'll be much better off when we do. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:26:17 -0800 (PST) To: Dave Hayes Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701290626.WAA20919@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dave Hayes wrote: > Dale Thorn writes: > > I heard years ago that approximately 10% of the people on the street > > are certifiably mentally unstable. > This depends on your standads of "unstable". I'll bet genetic > diversity is now much more of a factor then when those standards were > written. > > Multiply that by two at least for > > Los Angeles (suburban L.A., actually, Hollywood for example is much > > safer than Altadena or Westlake Village). > I beg to differ. Which parts of Altadena and Hollywood are you > referring to? I used Altadena as a generic example of a suburb, although Camarillo would be even better, since it's not so cosmopolitan as most of the 'burbs right next to L.A. Hollywood (to me) is an ideal example of inner city, for a lot of reasons. I love the place, dirt and all. BTW, I was *not* referring to walking around, I was comparing driving, mainly on the freeway. Statistics have come out in major papers that back my experience up 100%. I drive from P.C.H. @ Seal Beach Blvd. to the Ventura County beach area every weekend, and back again. I used to go down the 101 to the 405, then south on the 405 to Seal Beach Blvd. Nowadays I take the 101 all the way into town to the 5, down the 5 to the 605, and down the 605 to 7th Street in Long Beach. It's 3 miles further thru town, and 20 minutes slower on average, but I get only about one psycho per 20 round trips now, as compared to at least one per trip on the 101-405 combo when I went that way. The difference was striking, and I can only surmise that rednecks and their ilk are more fearful of attacking other people in the inner city as opposed to the outlying regions. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Garrard, David Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 18:55:44 -0800 (PST) To: "IMCEAX400-c=US+3Ba=+20+3Bp=EDS+3Bo=EXAU01+3Bdda+3ASMTP=cypherpunks+40toad+2Ecom+3B@EXCH.EDS.com> Subject: Recovery of Windows NT administrator password Message-ID: <199701290255.SAA14886@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain An inherited Windows NT system that I am involved with has a lost administrator password ( no one no longer knows what it is ). Can anyone point me to software products/companies that can help in the recovery. Given Microsoft's dismal record on security I am sure there must be solutions to this dilemma. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Best Regards David L. Garrard From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Richard Fiero Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:27:52 -0800 (PST) To: Sandy Sandfort MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Get it straight Sandy Sandfort. I'm not in your home. I am in my home and I will observe my priorities, not your's. Sandy Sandfort writes: > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Mail lists are far >more like private homes, businesses or clubs. When you are a >guest there, you are subject to their rules of behavior. If Dr. Vulis was pushing the envelope in list-abuse as a multi-stage social experiment, Sandy Sandfort has surpassed him by far. In part I refer to a Sandy Sandfort reply to a criticism made by Paul Bradley. The reply was made public two hours before the criticism was. This is not moderation. It is manipulation and interference. Since I have a low tolerance for self-serving pedantry, I never would have noticed the criticism if it had not been preceded by the reply. In the reply, Sandy Sandfort employs the name-calling "sophist" and "hypocrite." Also in the reply is the Freudian slip or obscene proposition: > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . "Force," my ass. Shouldn't this have gone to cypherpunks-flames? One might wonder just what the rules of proper decorum are. -- Richard Fiero From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:26:11 -0800 (PST) To: Ian Goldberg Subject: Re: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved Message-ID: <199701290626.WAA20916@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Any bets on whether the $5000 RC5-12/32/6 contest will be solved before the www.rsa.com contest status web page is updated? :-) Or how long before someone in the government starts talking about how 56 bits takes 65,000 times as long to solve as 40 bits, which is 26 years for a whole building full of computers, and even 48 bits ought to take a month and a half for a whole building full of computers (or supercomputers, if they hype it up....)? At 09:55 PM 1/28/97 +0100, Germano Caronni wrote: >challenge: RC5-32/12/5 >time: from start of contest until Tue Jan 28 21:54:58 1997 >method: massive distributed coordinated keysearch, details later which was a bit slower than Ian Goldberg's crack, but pretty close. How many machines were you using, on average? # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: stewarts@ix.netcom.com Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:13:11 -0800 (PST) To: Ian Goldberg Subject: Re: RC5-12/32/5 contest solved Message-ID: <199701291513.HAA03689@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Any bets on whether the $5000 RC5-12/32/6 contest will be solved before the www.rsa.com contest status web page is updated? :-) Or how long before someone in the government starts talking about how 56 bits takes 65,000 times as long to solve as 40 bits, which is 26 years for a whole building full of computers, and even 48 bits ought to take a month and a half for a whole building full of computers (or supercomputers, if they hype it up....)? At 09:55 PM 1/28/97 +0100, Germano Caronni wrote: >challenge: RC5-32/12/5 >time: from start of contest until Tue Jan 28 21:54:58 1997 >method: massive distributed coordinated keysearch, details later which was a bit slower than Ian Goldberg's crack, but pretty close. How many machines were you using, on average? # Thanks; Bill # Bill Stewart, +1-415-442-2215 stewarts@ix.netcom.com # You can get PGP outside the US at ftp.ox.ac.uk/pub/crypto/pgp # (If this is a mailing list, please Cc: me on replies. Thanks.) From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: "Z.B." Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:40:46 -0800 (PST) To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy? Message-ID: <199701290640.WAA21235@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Tue, 28 Jan 1997 stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote: [snip] > >EXPORTABLE CRYPTOGRAPHY TOTALLY INSECURE: CHALLENGE CIPHER BROKEN IMMEDIATELY > > > >January 28, 1997 - Ian Goldberg, a UC Berkeley graduate student, > >announced today that he had successfully cracked RSA Data Security > >Inc.'s 40-bit challenge cipher in just under 3.5 hours. > .... > >Goldberg used UC Berkeley's Network of Workstations (known as the NOW) > >to harness the computational resources of about 250 idle machines. > >This allowed him to test 100 billion possible "keys" per hour -- > Good grief...I just remembered that this challenge started today when I read this letter. A question - how does DES differ from the RC5 cyphers that are also up for breaking? Where can I find some software to use on these? Zach Babayco zachb@netcom.com <-------finger for PGP public key If you need to know how to set up a mail filter or defend against emailbombs, send me a message with the words "get helpfile" (without the " marks) in the SUBJECT: header, *NOT THE BODY OF THE MESSAGE!* I have several useful FAQs and documents available. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Mark Rosen Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:55:54 -0800 (PST) To: cryptography@c2.net Subject: More Circumventing the ITAR Message-ID: <199701290355.TAA17298@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I'm curious as to exactly what the ITAR/EAR/Whatever says specifically about "unrestricted FTP sites." My program, Kremlin, is available for download at the web page below. On my web page, I have some stuff in bold print that informs about the ITAR and tells people to go away if they're not from the US or Canada. Does this count as an unrestricted FTP site? It's not all that much different from what MIT has up for PGP. Also, back to the question of registration numbers. A registration number is just a string of letters and numbers, and is essentially the same as a friendly letter; it contains no cryptographic code. For all anyone knows, I could just be charging for pseudo-random numbers, again, nothing of cryptographic significance. Is it illegal for me to mail someone outside of the US or Canada a registration code? Thanks for any help. Mark Rosen FireSoft - http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/2690 Mark Eats AOL - http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/6660 From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Mark Rosen Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:10:50 -0800 (PST) To: cryptography@c2.net Subject: More Circumventing the ITAR Message-ID: <199701291510.HAA03591@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain I'm curious as to exactly what the ITAR/EAR/Whatever says specifically about "unrestricted FTP sites." My program, Kremlin, is available for download at the web page below. On my web page, I have some stuff in bold print that informs about the ITAR and tells people to go away if they're not from the US or Canada. Does this count as an unrestricted FTP site? It's not all that much different from what MIT has up for PGP. Also, back to the question of registration numbers. A registration number is just a string of letters and numbers, and is essentially the same as a friendly letter; it contains no cryptographic code. For all anyone knows, I could just be charging for pseudo-random numbers, again, nothing of cryptographic significance. Is it illegal for me to mail someone outside of the US or Canada a registration code? Thanks for any help. Mark Rosen FireSoft - http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Pines/2690 Mark Eats AOL - http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/6660 From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: ichudov@algebra.com Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:10:50 -0800 (PST) To: Steve Schear Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701290610.WAA20615@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Steve Schear wrote: > > >jim bell wrote: > >> > >> At 10:21 PM 1/26/97 -0800, blanc wrote: > >> >From: jim bell (in response to Dimitri Vulis') > >> >Look, I've proposed what I consider to be a remarkably consistent method to > >> >prevent the kind of political tyranny that you criticize, and I don't see > >> >any recognition of this fact. > >> >........................................................ > >> > > >> >1) Jim, why do you insist on discussing this on an forum for encryption? > >> > >> Because it's on-topic, that's why. Because it's not merely a list > >> concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using > >> encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of > >> using encryption. > > > >Actually AP is one of the more interesting topics here. I think that there > >is a clear need for an AP bot. > > > >Do you feel like writing it? > > > > - Igor. > > Jim's all talk, I on the other hand am serious. Did you receive my Monday > e-mail? > yes, and found it interesting. - Igor. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:56:11 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Trolling with Dale (a bite) Message-ID: <199701290656.WAA21792@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Huge Cajones Remailer wrote: > From: Dale Thorn > Subject: Re: overview.htm (fwd) > Dale Thorn hopelessly wrote: > >Let's be realistic about how AIDS is acquired. > Yes, Dale, let's. Dale makes an excellent case for having a moderated > list right here. What do his nutball beyond-the-fringe remarks have > to do with crypto, privacy, security? Cripes, in the old days even an > _accurate_ off-list remark would open a blast furnace of condemnation, > a la Jim B. If the list won't moderate itself to "guide" the Dale's, > it DESERVES to be moderated. He's gotta be trolling to keep it hard. Well, I don't know who you are, so (despite your remarks) I can't really tell what your question is. I suppose if we sat down with a human moderator and a copy of Applied Cryptography, you'd know the XOR's and S-boxes and whatnot better than I. That's why we need people like you on this list, especially the moderated list, since you know the conventional (academic) crypto really well. To be honest, I'm after more important things, but hey, keep plugging away and maybe I'll learn something from you. Hugs and stuff.... From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Mike McNally Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:10:45 -0800 (PST) To: Somebody Subject: Re: Sovreign Right of Lawful Access Message-ID: <199701290610.WAA20607@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Somebody wrote: > > This morning at the RSA keynote, David Aaron, the US Crypto > ambassador quoted the "Sovreign Right of Lawful Access" as > something that goverments were determined to preserve. Speaking as a private indiwidual, and not as a drone in the employ of IBM (don't get me started on the "but wait, key recovery *isn't* the same as key escrow" hoo-ha), that dude scared the piss out of me. As an IBM employee worried about commercial this-n-that, he was merely depressing. ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ Mike McNally -- Egregiously Pointy -- Tivoli Systems, "IBM" -- Austin mailto:m5@tivoli.com mailto:m101@io.com http://www.io.com/~m101 ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: drose@AZStarNet.com Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:25:44 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Best Computer School? Message-ID: <199701290625.WAA20851@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Rick Osborne wrote: >Lucky you. It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying >overachiever of 6. Sux to be white trash, I guess. Wrong! White-americans play a very important and useful role in the new multi-cultural society. Sheesh! _Someone's_ got to work, support their families, pay taxes, and obey the law. Hee hee! Him so stoopit! From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:55:53 -0800 (PST) To: "Mullen, Patrick" Subject: Re: [noise] RE: Shave the Whales Message-ID: <199701290655.WAA21747@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Mullen, Patrick wrote: > Is there a way we can keep the caricatures w/out getting the rest of the > message > w/ these postings? I like the ASCII art, but... I've just started clipping and saving the characters w/o the text that accompanies them. I've got a dozen so far, so check back in a week or so and I'll forward a set to anyone who wants. Unless, of course, someone has a bucket of them now. BTW, some of the recent ones are pretty amazing: a bat, a scorpion, a cow, etc. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:55:48 -0800 (PST) To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy? Message-ID: <199701290655.WAA21731@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > >January 28, 1997 - Ian Goldberg, a UC Berkeley graduate student, > >announced today that he had successfully cracked RSA Data Security > >Inc.'s 40-bit challenge cipher in just under 3.5 hours. I just ran out of asswipe. Does anyone have any RSA Data Security, Inc. stock they'd like to sell? Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:56:14 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: can Sun Tzu be a cypherpunks? Message-ID: <199701290656.WAA21793@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain nobody@nowhere.com wrote: > Quotations from the Art Of War by Sun Tzu > A Military operation involves deception. Even though you are competent, > appear to be incompetent. Though effective, appear to be ineffective. > Draw them in with the prospect of gain, take them by confusion. > Use humility to make them haughty. Tire them by flight. Cause division > among them. Attack when they are unprepared, make your move when they > do not expect it. The all-time master was Rudolph Wanderone (sp?), a.k.a. Minnesota Fats. There was an article on him that told how he cleaned the pool champ in Atlantic City circa 1960. In later years, he played Mosconi on TV several times, and had quite a few people convinced he wasn't a very good player, at least "not as good as" Mosconi. The movie Color Of Money shows what this meant, and just how unprepared the public is to believe that someone like Fats could really be the best. Kinda like Tom Wolfe and the pirates thing. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Sandy Sandfort Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:56:17 -0800 (PST) To: Richard Fiero Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701290656.WAA21794@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ SANDY SANDFORT . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . C'punks, On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, Richard Fiero wrote: > Get it straight Sandy Sandfort. I'm not in your home. I am in > my home and I will observe my priorities, not your's. Silly things happen when one responds literally to an obvious metaphor. (see, "analogy.") > ...In part I refer to a > Sandy Sandfort reply to a criticism made by Paul Bradley. The reply was > made public two hours before the criticism was. Nonsense. Richard may have read my response on the Unedited list and Paul post on the Moderated list, but I sent my response to each list in the appropriate order, Paul's post, followed by my response. In any event, how would intentionally reversing the order have benefited me? This specious argument makes no sense. > In the reply, Sandy Sandfort employs the name-calling "sophist" > and "hypocrite." Nope, wrong again. I referenced sophistry and hypocracy. I leave the significance of the difference as an exercise to the student. (Hint: one is an argument to the man, the other isn't.) > Also in the reply is the Freudian slip or obscene proposition: > > . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . "Force," my ass. > Shouldn't this have gone to cypherpunks-flames? And wrong yet again. Not a personal attack but commentary on wooly thinking. > One might wonder just what the rules of proper decorum are. One might read my posts on this point and pay attention. S a n d y ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: sameer Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:56:05 -0800 (PST) To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: Last nail for US crypto export policy? Message-ID: <199701290656.WAA21785@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain http://now.cs.berkeley.edu/ > Yee-hah! Congratulations (and enjoy the $1000 check!) > So what did you do interesting cryptographically in the crack, > other than coordinating a bunch of workstations? > Was it just brute force with well-tuned code? > Given the figures in your press release, it sounds like you > tested about 350 billion keys out of a trillion possible, > so you hit the winner a shade early. That's about 400,000 keys/sec/box. > Are the machines mostly Pentiums, Alphas, Suns, etc.? -- Sameer Parekh Voice: 510-986-8770 President FAX: 510-986-8777 C2Net http://www.c2.net/ sameer@c2.net From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Jim Choate Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:11:01 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Libel & the 1st Amendment Message-ID: <199701290611.WAA20631@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hi, It has been asserted by at least one member that the 1st Amendment protects libelous or other defamatory speech. This is hokem. The 1st most certainly does not protect lies in any form. It protects opinion, this is distinctly different then stating a untruth about some party or distribution of material with the attributation to them without their permission. No civilized society can exist that permits lies and other defamations of character and expect to survive for any length of time. Simply for no other reason than contracts and other such instruments would not be worth the paper they were printed on. Let alone any laws or other issuances from the government itself. ARTICLE I. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Where in there do you see a right to lie, cheat, or steal? If it did, it would be a lie because it would not protect the very freedom it says it is. Jim Choate CyberTects ravage@ssz.com From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Tobin Fricke Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 23:26:02 -0800 (PST) To: Phil Karn MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > This seems clear enough. If it's printed on paper, it's kosher for > export. But if we're really overt about it, we may goad the government > into attempting to control printed source code as well. That could > prove most interesting. Hmmm.. Printing out, say, PGP as a book where each page is a 2 dimensional bar code would be rather interesting. Then again, OCR works pretty well for normal text. A printed book or other printed material setting forth encryption source code is not itself subject to the EAR (see Sec. 734.3(b)(2)). However, notwithstanding Sec. 734.3(b)(2), encryption source code in electronic form or media (e.g., computer diskette or CD ROM) remains subject to the EAR (see Sec. 734.3(b)(3)). Does a barcode fall under "electronic form or media" or is it "printed material"? What about punched cards? (-: Tobin Fricke From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Dale Thorn Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:57:40 -0800 (PST) To: OKSAS Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701290657.WAA21808@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain OKSAS wrote: > On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, blanc wrote: > > From: jim bell > > I was thinking the reason that most people don't think of applying AP is > > because they're normal. It is not the first thought of a normal person to > > kill another human, just because they've been offended - even severely. It > > takes an extraordinary circumstance to motivate one to such destruction, > > especially if there are a thousand armed troops supporting the object of > > the attempt. > Any normal person has potential to kill, > why they don't...? They have other thoughts > and dreams for a better future. Some people in society are like a bad dream (ok, ok). Anyway, they are a lot harder to get rid of than just waking up and going back to sleep. But AP offers the first practical solution to this problem. Get rid of the bad dreams, have good dreams. What could be better? From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:27:36 -0800 (PST) To: m5@vail.tivoli.com Subject: M.M. / Re: Sovreign Right of Lawful Access Message-ID: <199701290627.WAA20938@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Mike McNally wrote: > Somebody wrote: > > This morning at the RSA keynote, David Aaron, the US Crypto > > ambassador quoted the "Sovreign Right of Lawful Access" as > > something that goverments were determined to preserve. > > Speaking as a private indiwidual, and not as a drone in the employ > of IBM (don't get me started on the "but wait, key recovery *isn't* > the same as key escrow" hoo-ha), that dude scared the piss out of > me. That plinking sound you hear is the sound of NSA's bloodhounds stamping the phrase, in reverse, on the bottom of their jackboots. "Sovreign Right" has that certain ring to it which suggests the rhetoric of Dictators who imagine themselves to be Kings. "Lawful Access" has that "Of course, we will only use this 'right' against drug dealers.", kind of feel to it. Perhaps the student who popped RSA's test balloon could propose the "Universal Right to Casual Access." Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: ichudov@algebra.com Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:26:22 -0800 (PST) To: Cypherpunks Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment Message-ID: <199701290626.WAA20921@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain [Cc to Dr. John Martin Grubor, Law Systems Institute] Jim Choate wrote: > > It has been asserted by at least one member that the 1st Amendment protects > libelous or other defamatory speech. [I would appreciate if people with better knowledge of law correct me] I doubt that anyone made this assertion. What Greg Broiles and Dr. Grubor asserted was that because of the first amendment, the government can not initiate an action in a libel case. Which means that libel is not a crime. There may be some old statutes that declare libel a crime, as Greg noted, but they are not enforceable because of the first amendment. Suits can be brought by private individuals though. The government, even if it is defamed, cannot sue a private person for libel. For example, I can say that Congress regularly molests small children, and they will not be able to do anything about me. > This is hokem. The 1st most certainly does not protect lies in any form. It ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > protects opinion, this is distinctly different then stating a untruth about > some party or distribution of material with the attributation to them > without their permission. Not exactly. I can lie as much as I want about the government. No one would be able to prosecute me. These particular lies are protected, contrary to what you state. The law does not protect ALL opinions, as well. > No civilized society can exist that permits lies and other defamations of > character and expect to survive for any length of time. Simply for no other > reason than contracts and other such instruments would not be worth the > paper they were printed on. Let alone any laws or other issuances from the > government itself. You are mixing in totally unrelated things, Jim. Enforcement of contracts has nothing to do with freedom of speech. For example, if you borrow $100 from me and fail to return your debt in time, this is an issue of contract law and not of free speech. Contract law is not about speech, it is about promises. > ARTICLE I. > > Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, > or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of > speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, > and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. > > > Where in there do you see a right to lie, cheat, or steal? If it did, it > would be a lie because it would not protect the very freedom it says it is. Do you think that all rights should be found in the first amendment? What does the right to steal have to do with what we are talking about? I suggest reading "The Fourth Estate and the Constitution: Freedom of the Press in America", by Lucas a Powe, Jr. As for stealing and cheating in contracts, read any textbook on business law for business students. It is very useful to read this stuff, by the way. Not that these books give one a complete picture on law, but they are very informative. - Igor. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: snow Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:26:04 -0800 (PST) To: paul@fatmans.demon.co.uk Subject: Re: Rejection policy of the Cypherpunks mailing list Message-ID: <199701290626.WAA20899@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Paul said: > The list has been disentigrating for some time since the disgusting > incident when Dimitri was forcibly unsubscribed from the list. There Bullshit. This list was disentigrating well before that, and Vulis's actions were a part of that disentigration. > > a while." > > So, there would be no intellectual dishonesty in a country claiming > to be a free and open society "trying out" fascism for a month or > two? - After all it`s a private country just as this is a private > list.... As long as they let people leave at any point in the experiment, comment on the experiment, and start their own country if they don't like it. > There is a clear trend easily observable on the list whereby certain > members postings are censored when their content is of a standard > that, if the moderation were objective and based on content alone, > would warrant their being sent to the censored list. Really? Point to this "trend". I only know of 2 articles, and Sandy explained his (IMNTBHO incorrect) reasoning behind that. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: snow Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:25:54 -0800 (PST) To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) Message-ID: <199701290625.WAA20876@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Phill said: > That was not all. We had a political Web site established > during the '92 election. I was in contact with Clinton's people > when we had fewer than 100 Web sites. > > I am a cyber-revolutionary and the world has bought into > the chaos of our revolution. I never intended the Web to be a tool > for confirming the present social order which is manifestly > corrupt. Which of course is why you were in contact with Billy's boys right? From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Declan McCullagh Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:56:19 -0800 (PST) To: Rick Osborne Subject: Re: Best Computer School? Message-ID: <199701290656.WAA21795@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain MIT probably has a need-blind admissions policy; they don't care whether or not you have money. When they admit you, at least. Let me plug Carnegie Mellon University, which consistently ties with MIT and one of them California schools for first place in computer science. It's not quite as hard to get into as MIT, though you do have to deal with Pittsburgh winters. The town itself is small enough to be friendly, and big enough to be interesting. Jim Morris, the head of the computer science department, was my instructor for a data structures class and truly seemed to care about his students' well-being. Oh, and I remember we had t-shirts saying: "MIT -- the CMU of Massachusetts." -Declan Rick wrote: >At 12:32 PM 1/28/97 -0500, Derek Atkins wrote: >>This is really exagerating. You do not need a 4.0, 1600, etc. to be >>admitted to MIT. Sure, you need good grades, but a 3.6 average and >>1350-1400 SAT scores is perfectly adequate to be admitted to MIT. > >I disagree and can speak from experience. I was denied admission to MIT >even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests >with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2. As for being well-rounded, I >was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in >Drama, and played Tennis. > >The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money. I >made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need >full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the >Russian front!" > >>For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high >>school, too > >Lucky you. It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying >overachiever of 6. Sux to be white trash, I guess. > >MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most >part. (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty >assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.) >_________ o s b o r n e @ g a t e w a y . g r u m m a n . c o m _________ >"He who knows, does not speak. >He who speaks, does not know." ------------------------- Washington Correspondent The Netly News Network http://netlynews.com/ From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Lucky Green Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 07:11:14 -0800 (PST) To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: [DES] DES Key Recovery Project, Progress Report #7 Message-ID: <199701291511.HAA03669@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 07:10 PM 1/28/97 -0800, stewarts@ix.netcom.com wrote: >At 08:31 PM 1/27/97 -0800, Phil Karn wrote: >>And lacking that, the author can always print it out on paper and >>physically mail it out of the country; this is specifically allowed by >>the new Commerce rules as I understand them. And who's to say that the >>overseas FTP copies weren't scanned from such a paper copy? :-) > >At least one PGP site overseas did that - some German university >scanned in a copy of the MIT Press publication of PGP source. >The PGP 3.0 Pre-Alpha code is now available, on paper, from PGP Inc. Do you have an URL to the scanned source? -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime. http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: snow Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:42:32 -0800 (PST) To: "Phillip M. Hallam-Baker" Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) Message-ID: <199701290642.WAA21277@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Phill wrote: > I'm a philosophical anarchist and I don't consider the state to have > "rights" over its "subjects", nor do I believe in the pure ideology of > property you do. > > Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the BULLSHIT. BULL FUCKING SHIT. The origin of property is labor. Claiming that _my_ property is the result of ME stealing, and hence what I OWN belongs to the community IS theft. I work, and as the result of that work something is created. That something is MINE to do with as I will. If I choose to sell that work for money, that money is mine. If I trade that money for shoes, those shoes are mine. THere is no theft involved. > controllers of China literally so since they stole most of their "property" > from the previous rulers. They "won" it in combat. The people of china obviously prefered new government to the old one, or they would have prevented the takeover. > I believe that the relationship between a state and individual is > a much more complex one than the slavish subjection model > you propose. In this I am in agreement with practically every > philosopher since Locke. Practically every philosopher since Locke has recieved their education at a Government or "Elite" sponsored school, and made their livings the same way. I'm not claiming conspiracy here, but those that feed at the trough aren't going to insult it overmuch. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Lucky Green Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:25:58 -0800 (PST) To: Vipul Ved Prakash Subject: Re: Child Porn Message-ID: <199701290925.BAA25546@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 04:48 AM 1/29/97 +0000, Vipul Ved Prakash wrote: >(Forward) >*** NY student charged with sending child sex photos over Internet > >Nathaniel Levy, a psychology major at New York State University, was >charged Wednesday with using the Internet to transmit photos of >infants having sex with adults, the New York state attorney general >said. This is hilarious, given the fact that San Francisco State University's psychology department has what probably amounts to the largest collection of child pornography on the planet. Their collection also includes primary sources on any other type of kink you can imagine. And some that no sane person ever could imagine. [You have to be at least working on a PhD to access the collection.] -- Lucky Green PGP encrypted mail preferred Make your mark in the history of mathematics. Use the spare cycles of your PC/PPC/UNIX box to help find a new prime. http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: OKSAS Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:25:59 -0800 (PST) To: blanc Subject: RE: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701290625.WAA20884@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain On Tue, 28 Jan 1997, blanc wrote: > From: jim bell > > [ on discussing AP on the cpunk list]: > > Because it's on-topic, that's why. Because it's not merely a list > concerning METHODS of encryption, it's also about the _reasons_ for using > encryption, as well as the _effects_ (both small-scale and large-scale) of > using encryption. > -- > [...] > I was thinking the reason that most people don't think of applying AP is > because they're normal. It is not the first thought of a normal person to > kill another human, just because they've been offended - even severely. It > takes an extraordinary circumstance to motivate one to such destruction, > especially if there are a thousand armed troops supporting the object of > the attempt. > Any normal person has potential to kill, why they don't...? They have other thoughts and dreams for a better future. oksas From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: ichudov@algebra.com Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:58:00 -0800 (PST) To: Anonymous Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible Message-ID: <199701290658.WAA21810@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain can any kind soul tell me, what are the SAT scores needed to be in the top 10%, top 1%, and top 0.1% of all the students who take these tests? thank you igor Anonymous wrote: > > > > According to Rick Osborne: > > "I disagree and can speak from experience. I was denied admission to MIT > even thought I had a 3.82 GPA, 1440 SAT (one try), and had taken 9 AP tests > with two 5's, four 4's, two 3's, and one 2. As for being well-rounded, I > was on several academic teams, sang in Chorus, acted and stage managed in > Drama, and played Tennis." > > People get into MIT--or don't get into MIT--for lots of reasons. Most > intelligent people apply to several schools, knowing that admissions > practices are subject to the vagaries of reality. > > In my case, my SATs were about 1500, with some 800s in achievement tests. > And the usual bullshit high school clubs, political offices, etc. etc. I > was accepted by MIT, but not by Caltech. I didn't lose any sleep over the > way things turned out. > > And I decided not to go to MIT, either. > > "The only thing I didn't have that the next MIT applicant had was money. I > made the mistake of letting them know that I was dirt poor and would need > full aid/grants/etc, and to quote "The Great Escape" it was "Zzzt! To the > Russian front!"" > > My guess is that "other factors" were involved. > > I noted with some interest, but little surprise, that the guy claiming MIT > required a 4.0 GPA and a 1600 combined SAT score could barely spell, and > had major problems making a coherent point. Methinks this is why MIT > rejected him, not his lack of a "1600." > > ">For what it's worth, I wanted to go to MIT my sophomore year in high > >school, too > > "Lucky you. It had been a dream of mine since I was an annoying > overachiever of 6. Sux to be white trash, I guess." > > MIT offered me a substantial economic aid package, in the form of loans, > grants, and various campus jobs. What does this tell you? > > "MIT may be a great school, but they tend to be snooty assholes for the most > part. (DISCLAIMER: Not all MIT grads/attendees are necessarily "snooty > assholes", I'm just saying that I've yet to meet one that wasn't.) > > I've known about a dozen or so MIT grads, and only one of them was a snooty > asshole, and it was a _she_, one of the first MIT women grads (and she was > _very_ impressed by this). > > Most MIT grads are perfectly reasonable. > > Xanthar > > > > > -- > - Igor. From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Hallam-Baker Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:27:58 -0800 (PST) To: stewarts@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: East German Collapse (Was: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701290627.WAA20943@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain One point I had forgotten. The demonstration took place on the 50th anniversary of Kristallnacht. This is one explanation as to why the border guards did not attempt to open fire with firearms or attempt to break up the demonstration with tear gas. Also consider that the Tiennamen square massacre had occurred only a few months before and it did not appear to have settled the issue of who controlled china. Many of the dissidents were still at large, China was a pariah nation. East Germany had recently been visited by Gorbachev who did not appear ready to help keep the regime if things got sticky. The mass defections were taking place at their peak at a rate of tens of thousands in a day. Something like a quarter of the youth between 18 and 25 had defected. Bill if anything understates this point. Certainly if the people decide that the structures of state are not worth supporting change can be astonishing. I think that the spending into bankrupcy thesis might be argued for the case of the USSR and more plausibly the US. The problem is that I don't think that the military spending in either case bore any relation to need, to the threat from the other side or to any rational determination. I think both budgets simply increased to the limit that the economies could support and beyond. There is a similar problem in the third world today. Many third world countries spend more on arms than they do on health or education. Much of the alledged "foreign aid" is in fact subsidies for this trade. The arms are primarily to suppress internal dissent. There are plenty of governments left in need of similar reform. Phill From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Anil Das Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:26:00 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: More Circumventing the ITAR Message-ID: <199701290926.BAA25555@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Mark Rosen wrote: > > I'm curious as to exactly what the ITAR/EAR/Whatever says specifically > about "unrestricted FTP sites." My program, Kremlin, is available for > download at the web page below. On my web page, I have some stuff in bold > print that informs about the ITAR and tells people to go away if they're > not from the US or Canada. Does this count as an unrestricted FTP site? > It's not all that much different from what MIT has up for PGP. What you need to do to provide FTP access to crypto software is spelled out in the EAR regulations. Here is a summary. I am not a lawyer. 1) Users (downloaders) should be asked to answer some questions to indicate that: They are aware of the crypto export regulations. They and their computers are in the US/Canada. They intend to follow the the crypto export regulations and not export the software they download. They are US persons as defined in the EAR regulations. 2) The server should check that the client site requesting the download is in the US or Canada. In other words, just displaying a warning is not enough. > Also, back to the question of registration numbers. A registration number > is just a string of letters and numbers, and is essentially the same as a > friendly letter; it contains no cryptographic code. For all anyone knows, I > could just be charging for pseudo-random numbers, again, nothing of > cryptographic significance. Is it illegal for me to mail someone outside of > the US or Canada a registration code? Thanks for any help. I wouldn't try to circumvent the regulations by trying to follow the letter of the law while ignoring its spirit. You don't have to be convicted of a crime to make life a lot difficult. Ask Phil Zimmerman, who never even uploaded pgp to the Internet. -- Anil Das From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Hallam-Baker Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:40:48 -0800 (PST) To: snow Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) Message-ID: <199701290640.WAA21236@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain > > I am a cyber-revolutionary and the world has bought into > > the chaos of our revolution. I never intended the Web to be a tool > > for confirming the present social order which is manifestly > > corrupt. > > Which of course is why you were in contact with Billy's boys right? We did consider very early on the idea of proceedings of congress annotated with the campaign contributions of the various speakers. Imagine if instead of Newt Gingrich you saw Newt Gingrich ($243,493 Tobbacco Industry) as a speaker note. We were in contact with the Clinton folks because the Bush guys ignored the Web and the Internet completely. They just were not interested. Nor were the Perot folks either - odd since the electronic townhall was a big part of their platform. Even in this campaign the Perot page could not be read with Netscape 6 months before the election. On the other hand have a look at www.buchanan.org If you thought that Pat got a bum rap off the press when they called him a neo-Nazi just take a look at his site. Buchanan Brigade? Look at the choice of topics for the speaches. Phill From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: mjw@VNET.IBM.COM Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:55:55 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Altavista Message-ID: <199701290655.WAA21750@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain From: Mark Waddington Subject: Altavista > However, the doubleclick.net ads appear to bear no relationship to the > keywords being searched... Interestingly, I've just noticed over the last couple of days that the in-line ads are directly relevant to the search words I enter. I did a search yesterday on "Quicken" and "security" and all the in-line ads I was shown referred to security or penetration detection products. Mark Waddington Interactive Financial Services | Phone : +61-3-96266574 Business Development Manager | Mobile: +61-412-217316 IBM Asia Pacific | Fax : +61-3-96266273 From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Greg Broiles Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:26:04 -0800 (PST) To: Jim Choate Subject: Re: Libel/slander & crypto relevancy (fwd) Message-ID: <199701290926.BAA25563@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 10:42 AM 1/28/97 -0600, Jim Choate: >> From: Greg Broiles >> Civil actions against people doing "graffiti" are only interesting where >> the defendant has assets worth suing for. This economic dimension >> substantially limits the number of suits which will be brought. > >Thank you for agreeing with my thesis that the legal industry is one >driven by monetary gain and not justice. It is the one major problem >with law today, it ignores those who are not 'worth it'. Justice is >supposed to be blind and until that happens there can be no true >liberty. Law should be involved in rights and wrongs and not 'how much >money do I need to buy that villa in Spain'. Um, I was making the reciprocal of your point - that people with no assets have a special *advantage* with respect to civil suits, they're able to get away with a fair amount of misbehavior because it's not cost-effective for plaintiffs to sue them. If you're a defendant, being ignored as not 'worth it' is a good thing, not a bad thing. >There is also the aspect of 'reputation' of the organization which was >defamed. This will become even more critical to good business over the >Internet in the future than it is now. Now the only really important >'reputation' that one has to worry about is their credit report. I disagree strongly here. Think about the reputations of Odwalla and Sizzler and (Burger King? can't remember) after their E. Coli problems. Think about the reputation of Radio Shack for making mostly crappy products. Think about the reputation of some ISP's (Netcom, AOL) for continuing to charge people's credit cards for months after a cancellation. Reputation has many dimensions beyond credit reports. > Another aspect of this >that keeps coming up is one of 'big' corporations with 'lots' of money, >this monotonicity in legal thought is the reason I refer to the 'legal >industry' and not 'legal profession'. Currently the main force driving >law is how much money is available. Expansions of liberty simply can't >happen in this environment because there is no mechanism to protect >'little' organizations or persons without 'lots' of cash. This problem is >one that is not being addressed by anyone, most especialy lawyers who >will loose income which they aren't apt to do voluntarily. I agree that people get screwed because they can't afford to litigate or they can't afford a [good] attorney. But I think that the economic dimension to litigation is not necessarily all bad - if litigation were costless, what would prevent people from suing over essentially negligible disputes? I think it's good for people to stop and ask themselves "Is this dispute really worth fighting over?" The relatively high cost of litigation is a way to ration access to a relatively expensive resource, e.g., the courts. If litigants don't pay that cost, then taxpayers will. (And shifting more costs to losing litigants makes it easier, not harder, to be effectively judgment-proof by having few assets.) >> Criminal prosecutions for defamation (in the case of "graffiti") are still >> unlikely - a much more straightforward charge would be unauthorized access >> to a computer or some flavor of fraud, depending on the facts. > >This would be hard to do in the situation such as a mailing list because >the parties would have 'authorized access' and it does not include the issue >of inside parties nor 'web bbs's' where parties can enter comments and >other statements in a 'authorized' manner. There are mechanisms to use >computers for abuse of other parties besides hacking. I don't think that that web BBS or mailing list messages alone will lead to much criminal liability for defamation because I think it's difficult to do a lot of harm in that medium. BBS's have existed for 20+ years now - and how many online defamation cases have we seen? Maybe 10, total. Off the top of my head the only ones I remember are _Cubby v. Compuserve_ and _Stratton-Oakmont_, but there are probably others. Still, we're seeing what, at best one reported case for every 2 years? Online defamation liability exists, but I don't think there's ever going to be an avalanche of cases, simply because the damage involved tends to be relatively small compared to the monetary and emotional costs of litigation. >The point is that if joe-six-pack isn't secure in knowing that his views >and expression are not protected from abuse he won't use it. We all loose >in that case. But Joe Sixpack's lack of protection from abuse is also Joe Sixpack's protection from prosecution when he hasn't done anything wrong. Look at how pissed off some people are when Sandy moderates the list - imagine how much worse it would be if prosecutors were sifting through the list, identifying messages they thought were "over the line" with respect to defamation and then prosecuting the wrongdoers. Yow. Some people would be facing three-strikes minimums based on a single day's messages. :) I much prefer a world where we can engage in spirited debate without being afraid of prosecution (or civil suits) over a world where a tiny misstep means jail or litigation. You're of course free to want something else, but it's hard for me to see the logic behind arguing against private moderation but in favor of significant state regulation. Look at the way that big corporations use SLAPP suits to pick on Ma and Pa Kettle now, and imagine what big corporations could do if it was easier to create criminal liability for defamation. I think your proposed strengthening of defamation rules will prove to hurt the "little guys", not help them. >In this example, if party A makes a statement and then B changes it and >then re-distributes it as original comments by A then there is a problem >irrespective of the monetary worth of A or B. Digital signatures in and of >themselves won't help this from happening unless it is required to include >the full text and signature of any quote in any subsequent use of that >material otherwise the quote and the digital signature are out of sync and >therefore worthless. But people who receive the message unsigned know they're getting an unsigned message (or know that it was signed by the quoter, but not the quoted author) and can make the appropriate assumptions about the truth of the attributions, and adjust their assessment of the veracity of the quoter if it turns out that the quoter is a liar, or if someone challenges the quoter to produce a signed version of the statement and they cannot. We seem to have survived OK so far without special rules to punish people for lying - why do we need special ones for the Net? -- Greg Broiles | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell: gbroiles@netbox.com | http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto. | From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Rich Graves Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:56:35 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Getting into MIT is impossible Message-ID: <199701291456.GAA03369@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain ichudov@algebra.com wrote: > > can any kind soul tell me, what are the SAT scores needed to be in > the top 10%, top 1%, and top 0.1% of all the students who take these > tests? I'm not sure what this has to do with, well, anything, but here goes. Scores from before April 1995 are not comparable to scores today because the method of scoring has changed to recenter the distribution. The 99th percentile starts at 1440 for women and 1490 for men. Full stats at http://www.collegeboard.org/sat/html/topsrs29.html Please note that this is for "college-bound seniors." It's not a stat that applies to the general population (i.e., 1490+ is the top 1% of the elite 30% or so that go to college), and it doesn't include people who were satisfied with the score they got the beginning of their junior year, and didn't take it again (i.e., me). I don't know about MIT, but I'd think that their numbers would be even higher than those for Stanford, because MIT doesn't recruit football players. Some of Stanford's numbers are at http://www-portfolio.stanford.edu/105549 MIT and the like aren't impossible. Fucking elitist, yes. Worth it? Probably, though two of my closest and most intelligent friends have no college degrees at all. Of course, they had to earn people's respect, whereas I had people recruiting me based largely on the fact that I still had a pulse five years after taking the SAT. What counts is what people want you to do five years after that. -rich From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 01:25:50 -0800 (PST) To: dthorn@gte.net Subject: Re: [noise] RE: Shave the Whales Message-ID: <199701290925.BAA25538@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Dale Thorn wrote: > > Mullen, Patrick wrote: > > Is there a way we can keep the caricatures w/out getting the rest of the > > message > > w/ these postings? I like the ASCII art, but... > > BTW, some of the recent ones are pretty amazing: a bat, a scorpion, > a cow, etc. Maybe we could have the original cypherpunks list saved as an historical ASCII arts treasure. Toto From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Rich Graves Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:56:36 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: East German Collapse (Was: Fighting the cybercensor Message-ID: <199701291456.GAA03370@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Hallam-Baker wrote: > > One point I had forgotten. The demonstration took place > on the 50th anniversary of Kristallnacht. This is one explanation > as to why the border guards did not attempt to open fire with > firearms or attempt to break up the demonstration with tear gas. I think the timing was a coincidence. (And I'm told that Kristallnacht wasn't well advertised in East Germany; especially after the Soviets sided the United Arab Republic, the official story was that Hitler had been exterminating good Communists, not Jews.) While the final week was pretty spectacular, the demonstrations and defections had been building for months, as you say: > The mass defections were taking place at their peak at a rate of > tens of thousands in a day. Something like a quarter of the youth > between 18 and 25 had defected. Bill if anything understates this > point. I wasn't there, but an East German friend of mine was 20 when the wall came down. He was doing his compulsory military service at the time. Even in early 1987, as he was being interviewed by the Stasi concerning the direction the state would allow him to take his life, he says he felt no real fear telling them, up front, "Sure, I'll carry a gun, and I'll go where you tell me to go, but I will not hurt anyone." They gave him a gun and put him on the front, where he waved to his friends as they walked across the border. I think a lot of the border guards were like Thomas. > I think that the spending into bankrupcy thesis might be argued for > the case of the USSR and more plausibly the US. The problem is that > I don't think that the military spending in either case bore any > relation to need, to the threat from the other side or to any > rational determination. I think both budgets simply increased to > the limit that the economies could support and beyond. > > There is a similar problem in the third world today. Many third world > countries spend more on arms than they do on health or education. > Much of the alledged "foreign aid" is in fact subsidies for this > trade. The arms are primarily to suppress internal dissent. There > are plenty of governments left in need of similar reform. Yeah, yeah. Economics has soomething to do with it. But I think it comes down to "Sure, I'll carry a gun, and I'll go where you tell me to go, but I will not hurt anyone." Ideas matter. -rich From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Rich Graves Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:55:56 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: AltaVista sprouts a hole ... Message-ID: <199701291455.GAA03313@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Yes, I mentioned that here and in comp.org.eff.talk a couple weeks ago. No need to turn images off. Just tell AltaVista you want text-only: http://altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/query?pg=&text=yes You may also find the text-only page a hell of a lot faster. -rich From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Rich Graves Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:57:48 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Re: Best Computer School? Message-ID: <199701291457.GAA03377@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Declan McCullagh wrote: > > Let me plug Carnegie Mellon University, which consistently ties with > MIT and one of them California schools for first place in computer > science. You must be joking. After all you've said about the school, you're recommending it? Isn't "Mr. L-18 Tag" the head of the department now? Anyway, our correspondent is asking the wrong question. There is no "best" school. If you want to be a brilliant programmer, I think you have to be born that way. If you want theory, you need to be specific about your research interests. If you want mass-marketable experience in Windoze, avoid the big-name schools, which tend to treat Windows with the respect is deserves. (At Stanford, despite having a very nice Paul Allen Center for Integrated Systems and a posh new Bill Gates Information Sciences building, all instruction is done in Think C or UNIX.) -rich From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Anonymous Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 19:00:19 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: Crypto verification needed for Pretty Safe Mail Message-ID: <199701290300.TAA15110@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain There have been questions raised on the newsgroups regarding Pretty Safe Mail, arguably the best implementation of a PGP product for the Macintosh. In response, the product manager at Highware has requested that a trusted third party verify the security of Pretty Safe Mail. However, a NON-U.S. cryptologer is needed. I'm including the post below. Please forward to any people you know who may qualify. Pretty Safe Mail is a GREAT product. If it can be shown to be safe and effective, it will do wonders to spread the use of strong crypto. ===== From: axel@highware.com (Axel de Landtsheer) Newsgroups: comp.security.pgp.discuss Subject: Re: Concerned about Pretty Safe Mail for Mac > I'm concerned about the product "Pretty Safe Mail" for the Macintosh, >by a company called Highware. I was wondering whether anyone here had >tried evaluating it at all. > > It is a complete PGP implementation (not a front-end). They claim >to have licensed some of PRZ's code from PGP. However, as far as I >can tell, they are not making any of the source code available. The source code for PSM is indeed not available. We are however eager to have the code checked by any trusted source. These sources cannot be US companies because of the new US regulations which state that US companies must not give such support to overseas companies. Us being a Belgian company, this makes things a little more difficult. Does anybody have a suggestion for such a trusted source outside the US? > As someone on the comp.security.pgp newsgroups pointed out, writing >a wonderful user interface on a PGP trojan horse that either crippled >the session key generator or used the session key to leak random >portions of secret key primes would be a perfect tactic for a >government wishing to penetrate PGP security. With such a great >interface, compared to the original PGP, it can't help but become >widely used. PSM is not a Trojan Horse. Does any trusted source want to check that? > I realize that without the source code, it's a major hassle, but >has anyone looked at Pretty Safe Mail (previously called Safemail) >at all for suspicious behavior? For example: > > 1) non-random session key generation? > 2) non-random key pair generation? > 3) unnecessary disk access to secret keys? > 4) anything else? Many people are worried about the random-key generation because they do not need to bang away on the keyboard for five minutes when they create a key pair. Apparently, this seems to loosen their nerves (I heard some people created about 10 key pairs a day - just a joke). In short, we use all events that happen on the Mac (clicks, typing, opening of windows, display of icons, ...) together with the time they happen, and encrypt these to fill a table which is the starting point for the random-number generator. Why make people type away on the keyboard if you have enough random events to start from? Again, we want to have this checked by a trusted source asap... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Axel de Landtsheer | Highware, Inc. | 109 av. H. Jaspar, 1060 Brussels, Belgium Product Manager | voice: +32 2 537-6810 fax: +32 2 537-5155 axel@highware.com | http://www.highware.com, ftp://ftp.highware.com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To obtain my PGP key, send me a message with subject "Send PGP key" From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Kent Crispin Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:56:37 -0800 (PST) To: snow Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) Message-ID: <199701291456.GAA03371@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain snow allegedly said: > > Phill wrote: > > I'm a philosophical anarchist and I don't consider the state to have > > "rights" over its "subjects", nor do I believe in the pure ideology of > > property you do. > > > > Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the > > BULLSHIT. BULL FUCKING SHIT. The origin of property is labor. Claiming > that _my_ property is the result of ME stealing, and hence what I OWN belongs > to the community IS theft. He was making a slightly more subtle point, I believe, though fallacious just the same. It is clear that "ownership" or "property rights" are constructs of society. That is, property rights are rights conferred on the individual by the society. For example, if society determines that you don't own your house, then you don't own it. Contrariwise, if you are alone on a desert island you "own" whatever you say you own, since at that point you are a society of one -- you want the Milky Way -- it's yours -- you just grant yourself full rights and title to it. So the origin of property isn't theft, and it isn't labor -- it's whatever society says it is. Of course, "society" is not a monolith, and it may be at odds with itself. > I work, and as the result of that work something is > created. That something is MINE to do with as I will. If I choose to sell that > work for money, that money is mine. If I trade that money for shoes, those > shoes are mine. THere is no theft involved. Possession of objects like shoes is of no consequence -- they aren't the kind of propert that is at issue. Land is the fundamental property item. Arguably every piece of land in the world has been stolen from someone at one time or another. > > controllers of China literally so since they stole most of their "property" > > from the previous rulers. > > They "won" it in combat. Therefore, if I beat you over the head with a crowbar and take your shoes, it is not theft, but merely the spoils of war. That's convenient for those with big crowbars. > The people of china obviously prefered new > government to the old one, or they would have prevented the takeover. What a crock. Obviously, by your reasoning, every murder victim must secretly have preferred death, otherwise they would have prevented it. > > I believe that the relationship between a state and individual is > > a much more complex one than the slavish subjection model > > you propose. In this I am in agreement with practically every > > philosopher since Locke. > > Practically every philosopher since Locke has recieved their education > at a Government or "Elite" sponsored school, and made their livings the same > way. I'm not claiming conspiracy here, but those that feed at the trough > aren't going to insult it overmuch. Like you, for example? You are feeding at the trough of society just as much as anyone else. You wouldn't be on the net, otherwise. But I agree, citing "every philosopher since Locke" is bogus. -- Kent Crispin "No reason to get excited", kent@songbird.com,kc@llnl.gov the thief he kindly spoke... PGP fingerprint: 5A 16 DA 04 31 33 40 1E 87 DA 29 02 97 A3 46 2F From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Greg Broiles Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:58:19 -0800 (PST) To: Jim Choate Subject: Re: Libel & the 1st Amendment Message-ID: <199701291458.GAA03384@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain At 10:42 PM 1/28/97 -0600, Jim Choate wrote: >It has been asserted by at least one member that the 1st Amendment protects >libelous or other defamatory speech. Defamation is not protected by the First Amendment; but the First Amendment limits the application of defamation law in many circumstances. For example, the First Amendment requires plaintiffs to prove "actual malice" if they are a public official, public figure, or a private person seeking punitive damages. So if you want to think of defamatory statements as those which are false and injurious to someone's reputation, yes, the First Amendment protects some of them. (By definition, defamation is outside the protection of the First Amendment, but I get the impression that you're not trying to use it as a term of art.) >This is hokem. The 1st most certainly does not protect lies in any form. The First Amendment protects some lies. As Justice Powell wrote for the majority in _Gertz v. Robert Welch_, 418 U.S. 323, 339 (1974): "Under the First Amendment, there is no such thing as a false idea. However pernicious an opinion may seem, we depend for its correction not on the conscience of judges and juries, but on the competition of other ideas. But there is no constitutional value in false statements of fact. Neither the intentional lie nor the careless error materially advances society's interest in "uninhibited, robust, and wide-open" debate on public issues. New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, 376 U.S. at 270. They belong to that category of utterances which "are no essential part of any exposition of ideas, and are of such slight social value as a step to truth that any benefit that may be derived from them is clearly outweighed by the social interest in order and morality." Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568, 572 (1942). "Although the erroneous statement of fact is not worthy of constitutional protection, it is nevertheless inevitable in free debate. As James Madison pointed out in the Report on the Virginia Resolutions of 1798: "Some degree of abuse is inseparable from the proper use of every thing; and in no instance is this more true than in that of the press." 4 J. Elliot, Debates on the Federal Constitution of 1787, p. 571 (1876). And punishment of error runs the risk of inducing a cautious and restrictive exercise of the constitutionally guaranteed freedoms of speech and press. Our decisions recognize that a rule of strict liability that compels a publisher or broadcaster to guarantee the accuracy of his factual assertions may lead to intolerable self-censorship. Allowing the media to avoid liability only by proving the truth of all injurious statements does not accord adequate protection to First Amendment liberties. As the Court stated in New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, supra, at 279: 'Allowance of the defense of truth, with the burden of proving it on the defendant, does not mean that only false speech will be deterred.' "The First Amendment requires that we protect some falsehood in order to protect speech that matters." and Justice Brennan, in _NAACP v. Button_ 371 U.S. 415, 444 (1963): "For the Constitution protects expression and association without regard to the race, creed, or political or religious affiliation of the members of the group which invokes its shield, or to the truth, popularity, or social utility of the ideas and beliefs which are offered." So, yes, the First Amendment protects some lies. According to your hypothesis, the country should be collapsing around us any day now because of it. Last one out turn off the lights, ok? -- Greg Broiles | US crypto export control policy in a nutshell: gbroiles@netbox.com | http://www.io.com/~gbroiles | Export jobs, not crypto. | From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Toto Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:55:59 -0800 (PST) To: snow Subject: Re: Fighting the cybercensor. (fwd) Message-ID: <199701291455.GAA03319@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain snow wrote: > > Phill wrote: > > I'm a philosophical anarchist and I don't consider the state to have > > "rights" over its "subjects", nor do I believe in the pure ideology of > > property you do. > > Its worth noting that the origin of property is theft. In the case of the > BULLSHIT. BULL FUCKING SHIT. The origin of property is labor. Claiming > that _my_ property is the result of ME stealing, and hence what I OWN belongs > to the community IS theft. "All your private property, is target for your enemies." Jefferson Airplane From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Vipul Ved Prakash Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:28:08 -0800 (PST) To: Cypherpunks Subject: Internet companies demonstrate portable security Message-ID: <199701290028.QAA08966@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain (Forward) Internet companies demonstrate portable security Six Internet companies have joined forces to develop a joint demonstration of smartcard technologies at the 1997 RSA Data Security Conference. Consensus Development Corporation, Gemplus, Hewlett-Packard, Litronic Inc., Netscape Communications Corporation and VeriSign, Inc., Monday announced "The Get Smartcard Demo." The interactive demo will allow each conference attendee to load X509v3 certificates on crypto-enabled smartcards. Participants will interact with the demo through mutually authenticated SSL connections and document signing. For the full text story, see http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=1274540-213 -- Vipul Ved Prakash | - Electronic Security & Crypto vipul@pobox.com | - Web Objects 91 11 2233328 | - PERL Development 198 Madhuban IP Extension | - Linux & Open Systems Delhi, INDIA 110 092 | - Networked Multimedia From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Vipul Ved Prakash Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 16:26:28 -0800 (PST) To: Cypherpunks Subject: Child Porn Message-ID: <199701290026.QAA08900@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain (Forward) *** NY student charged with sending child sex photos over Internet Nathaniel Levy, a psychology major at New York State University, was charged Wednesday with using the Internet to transmit photos of infants having sex with adults, the New York state attorney general said. Levy, who wanted to be a kindergarten teacher, was arrested for promoting sexual performance of a child. If convicted he could receive seven years in prison. Levy, whose computer name was "NateTSnake," was released Wednesday on $20,000 bail. He allegedly transmitted 35 sexually explicit photos of children, some as young as 18 months. For the full text story, see http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=1219452-9f3 -- Vipul Ved Prakash | - Electronic Security & Crypto vipul@pobox.com | - Web Objects 91 11 2233328 | - PERL Development 198 Madhuban IP Extension | - Linux & Open Systems Delhi, INDIA 110 092 | - Networked Multimedia From cypherpunks@MHonArc.venona Wed Dec 17 23:17:14 2003 From: Lynx_User@linux.nycmetro.com Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 06:56:39 -0800 (PST) To: cypherpunks@toad.com Subject: verisign_1.html Message-ID: <199701291456.GAA03372@toad.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Reuters New Media [ Yahoo | Write Us | Search | Info ] [ Index | News | World | Biz | Tech | Politic | Sport | Scoreboard | Entertain | Health ] _________________________________________________________________ Previous Story: Kodak Near Deal With Wang - Report Next Story: AT&T To Build Business Calling Base _________________________________________________________________ Tuesday January 28 9:52 AM EST VeriSign Commercializes New Encryption Standard SAN FRANCISCO - VeriSign, hoping to push some recent Internet encryptio