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Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
Forwarded message:
> Date: 2 Nov 1997 05:47:36 -0000
> From: Secret Squirrel <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: democracy?! (Re: Terrorism is a NON-THREAT (fwd)
> Adam Back wrote:
> >[Ed Note: Jim Choate wrote:]
> >> At the height of the range wars there were only 9 murders
> >> associated with the conflict, not hundreds as the popular
> >> entertainment media and spin-doctor culture would have you
> >> believe. Get your fucking facts straight.
> >
> >I know, that was my point; recall that I said the murder rate was
> >low. The point was there were way less laws, and few were telling
> >their neighbours what they could think.
>
> It's not hard to believe that this was the case in some places and in
> some times, but a term like the "Wild West" covers a lot of time and
> territory.
It was the case in all places. The Wild West simply wasn't that wild.
> For example, in San Francisco in the early 1860s there was a very high
> murder rate, something like 1000 people were killed in one year and
> nobody was convicted. (Forgive minor factual errors as I haven't
> studied this in awhile.)
Damn, I have this book - but not here, at my shop apparently - that was
written by a eastern newspaper report who was in California, to write the
book, and he described San Francisco in the 1800's during the first gold
rushes. He doesn't note significant violence. What really makes the book
interesting is that the reporter took the 'long way' to California - across
Panama via coastal steamers and such. Very interesting descriptions. I'll
make note and get the book next time I'm out there and post to the list for
review.
Would you happen to remember your source? Nothing I have read has ever
mentioned a 1000/year homicide count in San Francisco - ever.
> I have also read reports of substantial
> violence in the mining communities of Nevada and California with
> minimal enforcement action taken.
That's interesting since this is a specific and commen example of free
market anarchy supporters, the low violence rates in the Cali. gold fields
during the rush. In particular J.D. Davidson & Lord W. Rees-Mogg go to great
lengths at a couple of places in their book "The Sovereign Individual" to
hold it us as a 'model anarchy'.
Me thinks something is going on here below the covers when both sides of the
discussion use the same example (which is why I intentionaly don't use it
but wait for others to bring it up).
> It seems likely to me that the low
> murder rate claim has some exceptions, even if we ignore the mutual
> atrocities between various native groups, Americans, and Mexicans.
If you read "My Life as a Indian" this might change your view of how it was
in that period. "The Texas Rangers" also has quite a lot to say about what
the Indian wars were like in Texas (not really since there really wasn't
much). It is interesting to note that when the cattle drives started in the
1800's the people oppossed didn't pick up a gun and fight as a rule, they
hired lawyers and sued the cattle owners for damages to their farms and
ranches. This one was one of the primary forces behind the closing of the
fronteir - putting up barbed wire - the cattle barons kept losing the cases.
> I would also like to see how pervasive the temperance movement was in
> the Wild West. By the late nineteenth century my impression is that
> it was going strong in the Wild West although it possibly hadn't
> grasped the levers of power yet.
Let us know how your research goes.
> >> Face off's at high-noon simply didn't happen and poeple didn't run
> >> around having gun fights all the time.
> >
> >Right!
>
> I'm pretty sure there were gunfights, but that they happened a lot
> more quickly and a lot less formally than we see on TV. But, I could
> believe that overall they happened infrequently. Anybody have a
> reference?
See above books as well as the Time*Life series I mentioned in a previous
submission. I would wager that from 1800 to 1900 there were less than a
dozen face-to-face shoot-outs at high-noon, if any at all. There is also a
very good book that covers the French and Spanish explorations of the
southwest starting in the late 1500's up to the early 1800's when they were
either forced out by political agreements or force. I believe the University
of New Mexico puts it out. If I stumble across it (I'll keep an eye out for
it) I'll get identifiying info. Very good book, but a mother to read.
> I am told that knife fighting was a lot more common than is widely
> known. A lot of poor runaways showed up to work in various mining
> towns and they were unable to afford expensive toys like guns.
Generaly people shot each other with rifles from a distance or back-shots.
But the fact is that most, stats put it as high as 60%, of all homicides
(accidental or intentional) were people shooting themselves with their own
weapon by accident. These sorts of incidents were clearly much higher than
Indians or homicide.
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